West Coast Railways Suspended (now reinstated)

[Bletchleyite]

What I find shocking is that they detail all the actions taken. I am unsure if I wanted to know how he did it. The volume of information available to the public about how a train works and the intricacies of the safety systems and how you can ignore them does freak me out a little.

Making it public has the benefit of keeping things in the open, which means "bad" actions can't be hidden.

 

[35B]

I'd I'd say it's likely all charter trains using WCR as the train operator in the near future are likely to be cancelled, and WCR will have to compensate the charter operators. It's technically possible for a charter operator to go to DBS or another operator, but this would take a lot of reorganistion and goodwill within the industry, which in the light of this incident will probably not be forthcoming.

I don't know, if others have the capacity, it could be an opportunity for them to win work.

 

[ComUtoR]

Making it public has the benefit of keeping things in the open, which means "bad" actions can't be hidden.

I do understand. I just get a little uncomfortable sometimes. Even on this very forum I have noticed a trend about various actions and systems are discussed openly. Again; I do understand but it has made me clench a little recently.

 

[IrishDave]

The cancellations begin... Vintage Trains have just announced (by email) the postponement of at least their next three tours for April:

...the immediate result to Vintage Trains will possibly be the postponement of three trains: The City of New Orleans on 11th April, The Coastal Explorer on 18th April and The White Rose to York on 25th April. Over the Easter break we will investigate alternate dates for these trains.

 

[ac6000cw]

What I find shocking is that they detail all the actions taken. I am unsure if I wanted to know how he did it. The volume of information available to the public about how a train works and the intricacies of the safety systems and how you can ignore them does freak me out a little.

Don't forget that since the early days of railways (when the original Railway Inspectorate was created) accident reports have been published and freely available to the public. They have to go into quite a lot of detail about 'how things work' sometimes to be able to explain what happened and why.

Of course one reason for publication is to bring public pressure to bear on the 'railway' over safety issues when necessary. Towards the end of the 19th century, it was mostly hard-hitting comments and recommendations in accident reports that persuaded the railway companies to install interlocking, block working and continuous braking for passenger trains. It was all eventually made mandatory, but by then most companies had already 'done the right thing'.

('Red for Danger' is an excellent read if you haven't read it already - it might be old, but the underlying lessons are just as relevant today)

 

[TDK]

I won't attempt to answer your other two questions, but no doubt there will be cases when it is necessary to isolate the system - e.g. wrong direction moves, movements that have been agreed with the signaller due to wrong-side signal failures.

Sorry but you are incorrect, you do not isolate the system at all unless it malfunctions and if you have to do this there are safeguards in place including competent persons and speeds. There are temporary isolations available for the system for WDM and passing signals but these are not full isolations as you are suggesting.
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That's just WCR going on the defensive and playing the hard done by card, DB Schenker who also provide crews for steam hauled railtours don't seem to have this problem.

There may be an issue on the competence of the driver or other staff and I can see this is most likely the case therefore if it is that is the reason the company have been suspended, it would be the same for any company. It will be extremely difficult for the drivers working for these types of outfits if they are not employed mainline drivers with keeping up their competence with both route knowledge and traction as there are not that may services.

 

[455driver]

I would say that many onboard systems can be isolated in such a way. They are designed to isolate systems and rely heavily on human action. They are also designed in such a way in that whatever it takes to isolate it is very much a deliberate action rather than "accidental"

Many systems can indeed be isolated but there are rules and regs which come into play!

Someone posted in the spad thread that they knew how it was possible on the steam. Reading the incident. The Driver managed to override the brake activation (for an aws). At that point the system was isolated and the tpws/aws for the signal couldn't stop the train as it was isolated. Like you, I am stunned it was done on the fly whilst the train is moving.

However; I reckon I could isolate the TPWS whilst the train is in motion. On a networker it is a switch that would take a fraction of a second to flip. "in theory" would that override the brake application ?

Scott Walford recently done something similar. In your experience I have no doubt you know various incidents that went unreported. Reset and Go used to be common when I first started. Was this Driver "old school" ?

I know of one such occurrence (it was nothing serious and I still don't understand why the driver didn't just stick his hand up to it) and I made my feelings on the subject quite clear to the driver concerned.

I don't like playing "what if.."

I don't normally but this had all the potential to be a right royal <woopsey>.

 

[theblackwatch]

I have few charter with steam by Railway Tour Company which is hire by West coast company like to be cancelled?

I'm unsure about the RTC trips, but I know for at least one WCRC tour over Easter, another TOC will be operating the train.

 

[Tracky]

without vegetating and frothing too much the letter also implies that the reaction of WCR directors did not satisfy Network Rail that they appreciated the seriousness of the incident.

Normal Train and Freight operating companies are much larger and employ a sizeable safety department along with 'line managers' who ensure drivers and guards maintain traction and route competency. West Coast is a tiny business with national route coverage and traincrew who work 'from home' many in retirement, on zero hours contracts and some, as secondary employment from other operators. Before now I have expressed my own view of nightmare it must be to manage the paperwork.

DBS supply drivers and fireman from their driving grade, whereas west coast fireman are often not qualified to drive and sometimes come from the heritage sector.

 

[ComUtoR]

Many systems can indeed be isolated but there are rules and regs which come into play!.

Incident after incident shows that rules are simply ignored. Its the old Error Vs Violation. This is clearly the latter.

As a Driver I'm sure you read the some of the industry mag's. If we are playing what if then this incident wasn't even close. I read one recently where a unit was sent wrong road and due to poor communication and misunderstandings it was sent into an occupied section. Only because of the track circuit and the swift reactions of the other driver prevented a head on collision.

We also almost had a rear collision on our patch a few years back. If you watch RED then you probably saw it.

A recent SPAD (train slid through the signal at a junction) on our patch again almost caused a collision. Suffice to say that thanks to GSMR it was avoided. Both Drivers involved should be commended for their actions.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't know, if others have the capacity, it could be an opportunity for them to win work.

I think that's the key thing here, in terms of rolling stock and locomotives. Away from WCR how many organisations have steam locos that are certified to run on Network Rail and that are powerful enough to haul long trains.

 

[455driver]

Incident after incident shows that rules are simply ignored. Its the old Error Vs Violation. This is clearly the latter.

As a Driver I'm sure you read the some of the industry mag's. If we are playing what if then this incident wasn't even close. I read one recently where a unit was sent wrong road and due to poor communication and misunderstandings it was sent into an occupied section. Only because of the track circuit and the swift reactions of the other driver prevented a head on collision.

We also almost had a rear collision on our patch a few years back. If you watch RED then you probably saw it.

A recent SPAD (train slid through the signal at a junction) on our patch again almost caused a collision. Suffice to say that thanks to GSMR it was avoided. Both Drivers involved should be commended for their actions.

Yes to everything you have written.

I think the Red DVDs focus the mind rather well on what might/could happen.

 

[Tracky]

There are 53 tours steam and diesel hauled tours up until the 15th.

West Coast operate the majority of steam charters now. They also own or manage stock for most which happen in the north. (Statesman, compass etc.) along with Steam Dreams further south.

I imagine Belmond Royal Scotsman will go to DRS or DB fairly swiftly.

Vintage trains own their locos and stock only operate vacuum braked so DB won't touch them. They have postponed their tours for April.

Riviera have two MkI trains in operation and there are a number of air braked steam locos available. The real question is do DB have the resources or the will to cover the work and can the promoters pay.

This will be damaging to lots of small business, promoters, caterers and suppliers etc.

 

[6Gman]

I was involved in charter train planning in the early days of privatisation (EWS/Res).

Drivers/ firemen were experienced on both rolling stock and routes. They were directly supervised (on every movement) by a team of Traction Inspectors of massive skill, knowledge and experience - probably the finest group of railwaymen I ever had the honour of working with. And they were managed by a Safety Manager/ Chief TI who knew the industry inside-out.

That's how you run an operation safely!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

From WCRC facebook page:

Network Rail and West Coast Railways

West Coast Railways are working hard to reverse the current suspension imposed by Network Rail by fully satisfying their concerns. Passengers booked to travel with West Coast Railways and on their associated trips should not be concerned, if necessary West Coast Railways will charter the service of another licensed operator using the same traditional carriages and trips will be unaffected, but West Coast Railways hope this won’t be necessary and trust any issues will be resolved to the satisfaction of network rail.

 

[Llanigraham]

This will be damaging to lots of small business, promoters, caterers and suppliers etc.

Whilst very true it cannot take precedent over safety.

 

[me123]

Scotsman article about the Jacobite Train.

Jacobite services are due to start 11th May, before the earliest resumption of service on 15th May. They aren't accepting bookings for these days at the present, so I don't know if they've been cancelled or if they're still hoping to run them with charter operators.

It's not good news for the West Highlands, and could be a real knock to tourism. Of course, you have to protect passengers and railway workers and if Network Rail feel that the punishment is necessary then I won't question that. But I hope the trains run in some capacity.

 

[D1009]

As far as I know WCR is the only operator (apart from NYMR) running vacuum braked trains on the main line, so for the time being non air brake fitted locomotives will not be able to haul trains.
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Scotsman article about the Jacobite Train.

Jacobite services are due to start 11th May, before the earliest resumption of service on 15th May. They aren't accepting bookings for these days at the present, so I don't know if they've been cancelled or if they're still hoping to run them with charter operators.

To run them with another operator would mean getting air braked locos and stock up there, and I can't see that happening any time soon.

 

[gazthomas]

Good luck WCRC

 

[Tracky]

Whilst very true it cannot take precedent over safety.

Absolutely.

As I have said in previous posts safety in the rail industry is something to be very proud of. While at times I complain about 'red tape' the huge cost and constant management of rail safety management is in my view absolutely justified and the incidents which have led to today's action are very serious and justify the action being taken.

I have held concerns about the industry - feeling for some time that promoters were taking risks in having all their eggs in one basket.

Vintage Trains own a train and mainline locos but they are all vacuum braked only and DB no longer operate vacuum braked equipment so they are at the mercy of west coast.
Steam Dreams dumped DB following resourcing issues. They would in my view, have done well to work with DB to create a schedule which complemented DBs resources.

Problem is, again and again WCR charged less and were far more flexible so won the work.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think that's the key thing here, in terms of rolling stock and locomotives. Away from WCR how many organisations have steam locos that are certified to run on Network Rail and that are powerful enough to haul long trains.

Many locos operated by WCRC are not owned by WCRC. 60007, 60009, 46233, 35028, 70013, 70000, 34027, 44871, 45407, 61994 and 62005 are all owned by individuals and organisations quite separate from WCRC.

 

[Tracky]

Of which

44871
45407
46233
70000
35028

Are air braked and currently operational

60007/09 not sure about, last I saw 09 it was in bits at Crewe.
34027 is in bits at Bridgnorth

 

[RichmondCommu]

Of which

44871
45407
46233
70000
35028

Are air braked and currently operational

60007/09 not sure about, last I saw 09 it was in bits at Crewe.
34027 is in bits at Bridgnorth

Many locos operated by WCRC are not owned by WCRC. 60007, 60009, 46233, 35028, 70013, 70000, 34027, 44871, 45407, 61994 and 62005 are all owned by individuals and organisations quite separate from WCRC.

Many thanks to both of you for this information.

 

[alexl92]

Apparently the report into this is being prioritised and will be out ASAP.

It's bad news for WCRC but it seems it's of their own making. The charter market really needs some competition in terms of having a number of companies able to supply trains and crews rather than just two major ones.

Incidentally, is 34067 owned and maintained by WCRC or hired by them? It seems to be involved in a large proportion of incidents...

 

[ainsworth74]

I notice that WCRC senior management are the ones who come under fire in the letter from Network Rail

without vegetating and frothing too much the letter also implies that the reaction of WCR directors did not satisfy Network Rail that they appreciated the seriousness of the incident.

I wonder if this isn't the key rather than what may or may not have happened on the footplate? I think it became fairly obvious that the main reason that WCRC had a steam ban applied to them over Network Rail London North Eastern metals was that NR LNE lost all faith in WCRC management's ability to operate safely over their network. WCRC's MD went so far as to forbid his staff to communicate with NR LNE about this issue!

It seems to me that something similar is playing out here. NR are, obviously, concerned by what happened on the footplate but I wonder if they aren't more concerned by the management that is behind the whole thing. This would explain why their letter clearly focuses on management at WCRC.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Statto]

Scotsman article about the Jacobite Train.

Jacobite services are due to start 11th May, before the earliest resumption of service on 15th May. They aren't accepting bookings for these days at the present, so I don't know if they've been cancelled or if they're still hoping to run them with charter operators.

It's not good news for the West Highlands, and could be a real knock to tourism. Of course, you have to protect passengers and railway workers and if Network Rail feel that the punishment is necessary then I won't question that. But I hope the trains run in some capacity.

I couldn't give a toss to be honest, NR wouldn't have taken the decision to suspend them lightly, safety as posted above is paramount, Colwich Junction is what can happen if a train has a SPAD, NR aren't happy with the response from WCR over this so took the decision to suspend them.

BBC artical http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-32167724

 

[Argosy]

This is very sad, because one can see it escalating.

If the personal relations are poor it really needs those involved to be of a similar ilk to want to resolve it. If it turns into a war of wills I don't expect WCRC to win.

One must also wonder how much financial reserve WCRC has to weather the period of non earning. We all know railways aren't cheap to operate but if this operator was to cease completely for whatever reason, imagine how devastating that would be.

The need to overhaul WCRC processes must surely push their charter hire rates up perhaps putting more promoters out of business as things become just too expensive.

Also what no one has picked up yet is that the MD for NR North East is about to move to Scotland. Could make for an interesting relationship.

 

[Llama]

Something is seriously wrong then. The brake application I can accept but without isolating the AWS/TPWS I cannot for the life of me figure out what could prevent a further application without isolation. The other spad where the TPWS was "isolated" because of the "fault" was also worrying but that was and unknown. This is deliberate. :/

Something specific to the type of traction and its basic nature perhaps.

I wouldn't like to put that theory to the test. But I do know how to circumvent the brake application as well as "reset and go" both deliberately and "accidentally" I can also fully isolate the TPWS and AWS on the move. I wouldn't but I know it is possible.

GERT8075 issue 1 says:
"4.1.3.5 The train sub-system shall not permit the driver to use the train stop override or TPWS temporary isolation facilities to cancel a TPWS brake application."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst very true, it cannot take precedent over safety.

Well said. I totally agree with what you say.

 

[rick9525]

Hope all the safety issues are resolved and the ban lifted.

I hope it was not a case of corners having been cut to save money as the trips already cost upwards of £200 for primer dining with The Railway Touring Company but are they are so much better than than Compass Tours who also hire from WCR but use MK2 stock.

The Railway Touring Company have cancelled 2 trips next week already.