728 bus Nottingham costs - a maths problem!

[pjnathanail]

Good evening all,

A friend has asked me to investigate the cost of bus service provision to Bestwood Village (where he lives). Bestwood Village is predominantly served by Littles Travel service 728 (contracted by Nottinghamshire County Council). I made the following FoI request and got some details back.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/728_bus_service_details#incoming-740587

2014/15 financial year: September-March



7,903 passengers

Cost: £51,596



2015/16 financial year: April - October



8,250 passengers

cost to date £51,596

The timetable can be found here

http://littlestravel.co.uk/pdf/728servicetimetable.pdf

By my reckoning this gives 13 bus journeys per day. The service operates 6 days a week. There are 4 weeks in a month (roughly). Therefore over a 7 month period there are 2,184 journeys operated. But with a cost of only £51,596 the cost per journey to the council is only £23.62.

A single fare on this route costs £1.90. There are approximately 4 passengers per journey, meaning the total money available on any journey is £31.22 approximately.

I have two questions. Firstly, have I made a mistake (silly or otherwise) in calculating my costs etc. Secondly, if I haven't, is this figure anywhere approaching sensible, or must there be another funding source? The route is operated with an elderly low floor Dennis Dart and has a PVR of 1. Many thanks in advance

 

[ashworth]

I don't have any answers to the question being asked, but as the 728 bus service runs within about half a mile of where I live I would like to make a few comments about the service.

In addition to the 728 providing an hourly service during the day between Bestwood Village and Bulwell it is also extended 2 hourly beyond Bestwood to Hucknall mainly to serve the Hucknall's Vaughan Estate and the Linby Road area of Hucknall. This part of the route was also hourly until about 18 months ago. I wouldn't say that Bestwood Village is predominantly served by the 728 as the 141 Trent/Barton service attracts far more passengers from Bestwood Village both to Nottingham and Hucknall although the 141 doesn't serve Bulwell.

The 728, in various forms has been running for many years now, but I must admit that I have never ever used it! The main reason being that as it is run by a small independent operator it is not part of Trent/Barton multi journey ticketing or Mango Smartcard and so for the short journey into Hucknall I either walk or if travelling further afield I use the Trent/Barton 141 service. If I was using a concessionary pass, or it became part of a multi operator ticketing scheme I would use the 728 occasionally.

I do know a number of elderly people who used to use it regularly from the Vaughan Estate and Linby Road areas into Hucknall for shopping and found it a very useful service. However, since it has been reduced to 2 hourly it is now of little use to them because they don't want to have to spend 2 hours in Hucknall or at Tesco each time they go shopping. This information is from a relative of mine who really misses the hourly service into Hucknall and now walks into Linby Village to catch the 141. On the journey from Bestwood to Hucknall it also runs just 10 minutes after the 141 which doesn't help passenger numbers.

There is an enormous amount of new houses being built and will continue to be built on the eastern side of Hucknall close to both the 728 and 141 routes with many more developments planned for the future.

 

[Robertj21a]

Are all the passengers fare paying ? - adults or children ? concessions ?

 

[ChathillMan]

I wonder how much the driver is on per hour

 

[pjnathanail]

I don't have any answers to the question being asked, but as the 728 bus service runs within about half a mile of where I live I would like to make a few comments about the service.

In addition to the 728 providing an hourly service during the day between Bestwood Village and Bulwell it is also extended 2 hourly beyond Bestwood to Hucknall mainly to serve the Hucknall's Vaughan Estate and the Linby Road area of Hucknall. This part of the route was also hourly until about 18 months ago. I wouldn't say that Bestwood Village is predominantly served by the 728 as the 141 Trent/Barton service attracts far more passengers from Bestwood Village both to Nottingham and Hucknall although the 141 doesn't serve Bulwell.

The 728, in various forms has been running for many years now, but I must admit that I have never ever used it! The main reason being that as it is run by a small independent operator it is not part of Trent/Barton multi journey ticketing or Mango Smartcard and so for the short journey into Hucknall I either walk or if travelling further afield I use the Trent/Barton 141 service. If I was using a concessionary pass, or it became part of a multi operator ticketing scheme I would use the 728 occasionally.

I do know a number of elderly people who used to use it regularly from the Vaughan Estate and Linby Road areas into Hucknall for shopping and found it a very useful service. However, since it has been reduced to 2 hourly it is now of little use to them because they don't want to have to spend 2 hours in Hucknall or at Tesco each time they go shopping. This information is from a relative of mine who really misses the hourly service into Hucknall and now walks into Linby Village to catch the 141. On the journey from Bestwood to Hucknall it also runs just 10 minutes after the 141 which doesn't help passenger numbers.

There is an enormous amount of new houses being built and will continue to be built on the eastern side of Hucknall close to both the 728 and 141 routes with many more developments planned for the future.

Interesting comments, thank you. I had forgotten about the 141! Hopefully new housing will stimulate additional demand for the service. The Nottingham Buses 17 is part of an integrated ticketing scheme with the tram, so maybe something similar would work here.

Are all the passengers fare paying ? - adults or children ? concessions ?

Passengers are few and far between! But in my experience they are mainly elderly with a few fare paying adults - predominantly concession passes though

 

[deltic]

Is the service provided on a net or gross cost basis (ie does the operator keep the revenue paid by passengers)?

What are you actually trying to calculate?

 

[pjnathanail]

Is the service provided on a net or gross cost basis (ie does the operator keep the revenue paid by passengers)?

What are you actually trying to calculate?

I don't know the answer to that but I can try and find out. I want to work out the cost to the council of each journey operated (i.e. what Littles is charging them to run the service). If Littles keeps the fares revenue then that will needed to be added on top, if the council keeps the revenue then the contract cost will be the actual cost of running the service.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't know the answer to that but I can try and find out. I want to work out the cost to the council of each journey operated (i.e. what Littles is charging them to run the service). If Littles keeps the fares revenue then that will needed to be added on top, if the council keeps the revenue then the contract cost will be the actual cost of running the service.

Why not just ask the council ? - it should be freely available on request. Surely, it's not really going to be 'what Littles is charging them', it will be what was the final price agreed when the council tendered the service ?

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I live at the southern end of the 728 route in Nuthall.
The 728 replaced the hourly 228 at retendering process and was extended beyond Bulwell to Nuthall as Nottinghamshire County Council pulled all funding from the L33 which linked Bulwell, Nuthall & the QMC.
The L33 though remains as the City Council decided to retain it and fund it.
We now have the daft situation whereby Nuthall is linked to Bulwell by both the L33 & 728 which is unnecessary during the daytime and the 728 could run hourly Bulwell to Hucknall between 10am & 3pm.

What would make sense, but as we are dealing with two local authorities here is unlikely is to:

1. Extend the L33 to Bestwood Village & Hucknall. The run time would be 65 minutes end to end. This is unfortunate but would give a 75minute frequency which is what the current L33 runs, but still using the two vehicles & restore through links across Bulwell and to the QMC area from Bestwood Village etc.

OR:

2. If more investment was available:
Run the L33 hourly QMC to Bestwood Village. (2 vehicles)
Tack the Vaughan Estate onto the end of the Amberline - linking that service to Tesco & Tram stop for Westville residents etc. (this would require an extra vehicle - but could be part of further improvements elsewhere).

 

[ashworth]

What would make sense, but as we are dealing with two local authorities here is unlikely is to:

1. Extend the L33 to Bestwood Village & Hucknall. The run time would be 65 minutes end to end. This is unfortunate but would give a 75minute frequency which is what the current L33 runs, but still using the two vehicles & restore through links across Bulwell and to the QMC area from Bestwood Village etc.

OR:

2. If more investment was available:
Run the L33 hourly QMC to Bestwood Village. (2 vehicles)
Tack the Vaughan Estate onto the end of the Amberline - linking that service to Tesco & Tram stop for Westville residents etc. (this would require an extra vehicle - but could be part of further improvements elsewhere).

Now that is an interesting suggestion tacking a Vaughan Estate service onto the end of the Amberline! I wonder why no-one has ever thought of that before!!!

Seriously that's an amazing suggestion and takes us back to over 40 years ago when the Hucknall Vaughan Estate was first built and a bus service was introduced to serve it. It must have been around 1970 when the old Midland General C9 service which ran from Alfreton to Hucknall had a the service to the Vaughan Estate tacked on to it! When the hourly C9 arrived in Hucknall from Alfreton it had approx. 50 minutes in Hucknall before it returned to Alfreton. It used to do some local routes to Beauvale Estate and Westville during that time and the Vaughan Estate was added to these. It carried on like this until Midland General was taken over by Trent. I can remember using the C9 bus from the Vaughan estate into Hucknall to go to school in the early 1970's.

The Midland General C9 bus ran hourly from Alfreton to Hucknall via Somercotes, Leabrooks, Codnor, Heanor, Langley Mill, Aldercar, Eastwood, Moorgreen, Watnall and Westville. Trent renumbered it as 330 but I don't recall it last beyond the late 1980's.
There was also a Midland General C8 which ran hourly from Ilkeston to Hucknall via Awsworth, Giltbrook, Kimberley, Larkfields Estate, Watnall and Westville. Trent renumbered it as 358 but I don't think it even lasted as long as the Alfreton service.

When Trent took over Midland General they put up the fares, which were always lower than Trent's fares and decimated the services. The Amberline is in many ways the survivor of the C8 and C9 routes and the route from Hucknall as far as Heanor is combination of the old C8 and C9 routes but it now runs to Derby and serves neither Ilkeston or Alfreton.

Extending the Amberline to the Vaughan Estate is therefore not such a way out idea. However, it perhaps needs to be part of a whole reordering of the bus services around Hucknall that is going to need to take place over the next 5 to 10 years with all the thousands of houses that are being built, or are planned to be built, all around Hucknall.

Any extension of the Amberline to the Vaughan Estate ought to do a circular route so as in addition to serving Linby Road and the Vaughan Estate it needs to be routed through the huge new Papplewick Green housing estate almost to the south of Papplewick Lane and there are also plans to build more new houses adjacent to the eastern side of the Vaughan Estate.

Also on the western edge of Hucknall on the part of the old Rolls Royce site, between Westville and Watnall, there is a huge new development just starting to be built. I was actually thinking when I recently saw the new road layouts being constructed that the current Amberline is going to be much busier into Hucknall in the future and may need to be extended later into the evenings.

Then in addition to this there are hundreds of new houses planned to be built to the north of Hucknall adjacent to Wighay Road and Annesley Road adjacent to the 141 route towards Linby and the Threes towards Newstead.

Extending the Amberline may be a stop gap for a few years but perhaps a whole reordering and extension of the Hucknall Connect Services will be needed in the long term.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

The whole of the network not provided by Trent (the Amberline is subsidised between Eastwood & Hucknall) in North Broxtowe & Hucknall areas needs recasting. Something also needs to be done to fill the 3hour gaps in the schoolday timetable for the likes of Giltbrook Farm Estate on the Y10.
The Y10, 531, 532, 533 and 728 along with the Nottinghamshire section of the Amberline need completely redrawing from scratch. And possibly some involvement of Trents poorly used 27!