HOW do trains 'turn around' at St. Pancras

[meridian2]

Like many main line termini, St Pancras was quite a circus in the 1970s with Peaks and 47s coming and going, and associated uncoupling and cleaning activity. A shed full of diesel fumes which could make your eyes smart, and an indefinable and not particularly pleasant smell in the carriages.

One of the things a modern user would find remarkable is how quiet St P. was outside the rush hours, and down at heel. For years the ticket office was a portacabin, and most of the interesting architectural detail was covered up. Even then I used to wonder why a window marked "tickets" or a door signed "left luggage" would generally lead to a store cupboard. After the Manchester and Glasgow trains finished St Pancras entered a twilight phase that seems evocative in hindsight, but was pretty grim as a portal to London and the Midlands (plus an occasional Sheffield and very occasional Leeds train). It was only cleaned externally in about '84 (?), before then it carried a century of London soot. Bear in mind it was due to be flattened in the sixties, unthinkable now but more than a possibility back then.

 

[Carntyne]

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.

It's being done for the introduction to ScotRail next year.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.

They've done it to 158's, which I imagine would be more difficult due to the presence of engines and things on the underside, so a mk3 should be easy.

Incidentally, I rarely see Northern 158 loos locked out of use. Is this down to good organisation of tanking, or are the retrofitted ones just a better design than the modern hi Tec ones, I wonder.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Following on from Clappers' comment, St Pancras did look decidedly tired in the 1980s, not quite as bad as Broad Street, which looked almost derelict in its final years, but very run down all the same. One novelty was the stuffed cow in one of the under-platform arches that could be seen through a window in Pancras Road.

 

[edwin_m]

Another complication at St Pancras and some other termini is that long trains are split and joined in the platforms. That would be much more difficult with locomotive haulage, as the loco would be trapped between the two parts of the train.

 

[Class 170101]

Since HS1 there haven't been any railtours to STP (that I know of) owing to capacity, which means no loco haulage. My best guess would be that it might be possible to run around at Kentish Town if it was so desperately desired, but I doubt it's been accommodated into the signalling.

The only railtours that I'm aware of that might have started or ended at St Pancras are the Javelin ones run close to Remembrance Day.

Indeed UK Railtours have used both Javelins and HSTs into / out of St Pancras depending here they are going. They happen fairly frequently throughout the year not just on Remembrance Sunday.

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.

The accessible toilet on HSTs will almost certainly have retention tanks fitted. Similarly on Loco hauled Mark III sets to found on the GEML out of Liverpool Street.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.

Considering 442s had retention toilets from new, and are effectively a Mk3 trailer, it's not too difficult.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Tangmere has run into the EMT side of St Pancras at least once since HS1 took over the majority of the station. Cannot remember the date, but think it was a railtour for Shepherd Neame brewery. A 37 top and tailed, bringing the ECS in and leaving on the rear of the tour.

 

[Hartington]

In the USA train "consists" were often fixed the whole train had to be turned around. Literally. The train would arrive at the terminus station and then back out around a "wye".

Imagine you back out until you come to some points where the back end of the train diverges from the main line. The train continues backing along this deviation until it comes to some more points. Once the whole train has passed the second set of points it starts going forward and when it reaches the second set of points it heads off along the tracks it didn't use to get there. It then comes to a third set of points where it rejoins the line out of the station. Once the last coach has passed this third set the train can then reverse into the station with the locomotive pointing the right way.

It was even more complex because the train would often stop somewhere around the wye/triangle to be fuelled (food, water, locomotive fuel).

Of course, only the major "name" trains did that (e.g. the Broadway Limited and the Chief). Others used the same ideas as in the UK with the loco that brings the train into the terminus waiting until another loco has been added at the other end which then hauls the train out of the station releasing the loco that brought the train into the terminus.

These days, as others have said, all UK trains can be driven from either end. The obvious exception is steam excursions. Their destinations are determined (at least in part) by having somewhere to turn the steam loco around.

 

[westcoaster]

Nearest turning triangle on the MML side is between Cricklewood- Duddington hill - Hendon.

On the hs1 side the nearest triangle is just outside the station using the nll.

 

[najaB]

In the USA train "consists" were often fixed the whole train had to be turned around. Literally. The train would arrive at the terminus station and then back out around a "wye".

The USA was also fond of balloon loops. I believe that Grand Central Station is a particularly grand (pardon the pun) example.

 

[43096]

I don't know how easy it is to add retention tanks to HSTs. If it is straightforward I would imagine it would have been done already.

It can be done, but at one end only.

Anglia Mark 3s have had CET tanks added, with one toilet in each coach taken out of service as a result. Mark 3 sleepers have had CET from new.

I'm not aware of any specific date being a deadline for non-CET stock to be modified, although obviously it is wanted, especially by NR.

 

[ExRes]

Many thanks everyone.

I must be mistaken but I thought I travelled to london on a train with a loco at the front - rather older stock. But I must be wrong.

Do you recall when this was? we did operate a daily 47 hauled set but that was way back in 2002 and well before the redevelopment of the station was started

When the morning service from Nottingham arrived around 1130/1200ish another 47, held on the buffer stops overnight, would haul the entire train out to Cricklewood from where it would return to form the 1730 to Sheffield and then ECS to Etches Park, the 47 that brought it into St Pancras would be detached and form the engine for the following day

 

[Supercoss]

http://bed-pan.homestead.com/steam.JPG 15th May 2011


arrived, top and tail with class 37 on buffer stop end
No facility to 'run round'without 2nd locomotive for the 4 EMT platforms
plenty of Infrastructure Monitoring trains also operate top/tailed or push/pull
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/tractor100.JPG

second steam run on 8 Nov 2014 with 46115'Scots Guardsman' also top/tail went to Lincoln and returned to Kings X
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/08573.jpg 21 May 1989

 

[Supercoss]

sub question. Do trains at St P get refuelled in the station and have their toilets emptied? And how long does that take?

Lovely fuel 'rack' at Cricklewood depot offers Fuelling facilities in London for the thirsty EMT fleet
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/hstfuelpointCW.JPG

Hive of activity on nights with 5 sets being fuelled, can fuel all 7 class 222 'meridian' cars or as shown HST formation

 

[3141]

Since HS1 there haven't been any railtours to STP (that I know of) owing to capacity, which means no loco haulage. My best guess would be that it might be possible to run around at Kentish Town if it was so desperately desired, but I doubt it's been accommodated into the signalling.

There was however the occasion several years ago when a number of Eurostars broke down in the Channel Tunnel. (The cause was frozen snow in the pantograph wells which melted in the warmth of the Tunnel and penetrated into electrical connections below.) One train was hauled out by two diesel locos (I think they belonged to Eurotunnel) and taken to St Pancras. It would have been more sensible to detrain the passengers at Ashford but the locos weren't cleared to call at the platforms there. They most probably could have called without any problems, but on paper it said they shouldn't so they took the train all the way to St. Pancras. Once there they were trapped at the buffers and as there weren't any more such locos available it took a lot longer to rescue the remaining Eurostars in the Tunnel.

 

[najaB]

It would have been more sensible to detrain the passengers at Ashford but the locos weren't cleared to call at the platforms there. They most probably could have called without any problems, but on paper it said they shouldn't so they took the train all the way to St. Pancras.

Would you want to be the person answering the 'Please explain.' request if someone had slipped and broken their arm?

 

[43096]

Would you want to be the person answering the 'Please explain.' request if someone had slipped and broken their arm?

Eh? The issue was with the Eurotunnel Krupp rescue locos not being cleared for Ashford, not the Eurostar sets.

AIUI the locos are now cleared for Ashford.

 

[jopsuk]

In the USA train "consists" were often fixed the whole train had to be turned around. Literally. The train would arrive at the terminus station and then back out around a "wye".

Imagine you back out until you come to some points where the back end of the train diverges from the main line. The train continues backing along this deviation until it comes to some more points. Once the whole train has passed the second set of points it starts going forward and when it reaches the second set of points it heads off along the tracks it didn't use to get there. It then comes to a third set of points where it rejoins the line out of the station. Once the last coach has passed this third set the train can then reverse into the station with the locomotive pointing the right way.

It was even more complex because the train would often stop somewhere around the wye/triangle to be fuelled (food, water, locomotive fuel).

Of course, only the major "name" trains did that (e.g. the Broadway Limited and the Chief). Others used the same ideas as in the UK with the loco that brings the train into the terminus waiting until another loco has been added at the other end which then hauls the train out of the station releasing the loco that brought the train into the terminus.

Whilst the Amtrak services don't do that any more (though a lot of their locos are single cab and still need turned) there's still quite a few heritage/tour trains that are fixed formations with a rear observation car

 

[najaB]

Eh? The issue was with the Eurotunnel Krupp rescue locos not being cleared for Ashford, not the Eurostar sets.

D'oh! Ignore me, I'm being dense. Of course it was Ashford International, not Ashford.

 

[181]

In the USA train "consists" were often fixed the whole train had to be turned around. Literally. The train would arrive at the terminus station and then back out around a "wye".

Imagine you back out until you come to some points where the back end of the train diverges from the main line. The train continues backing along this deviation until it comes to some more points. Once the whole train has passed the second set of points it starts going forward and when it reaches the second set of points it heads off along the tracks it didn't use to get there. It then comes to a third set of points where it rejoins the line out of the station. Once the last coach has passed this third set the train can then reverse into the station with the locomotive pointing the right way.

It was even more complex because the train would often stop somewhere around the wye/triangle to be fuelled (food, water, locomotive fuel).

Of course, only the major "name" trains did that (e.g. the Broadway Limited and the Chief). Others used the same ideas as in the UK with the loco that brings the train into the terminus waiting until another loco has been added at the other end which then hauls the train out of the station releasing the loco that brought the train into the terminus.

Whilst the Amtrak services don't do that any more (though a lot of their locos are single cab and still need turned) there's still quite a few heritage/tour trains that are fixed formations with a rear observation car

In at least one case (in Canada, but an Amtrak train) it still happened not very long ago, but with the turning taking place before arrival, with passengers on board. In 2005 I arrived in Montreal on the Amtrak train from New York, and shortly before the end of the journey it turned left (in the direction of Toronto) before reversing into the station.

My recollection from travelling around Canada in 1990 is that reversing into termini in this way happened several times (but not at every terminus); it wasn't restricted to trains with rear observation cars, but didn't happen on the comparatively short-distance trains in the Quebec-Windsor corridor, where a competitive journey time is presumably more important. A man with a walkie-talkie in the rear coach told the driver when to stop. In at least one case I seem to remember that the train went round 4 sides of the triangle rather than two -- I wondered whether the track at the end of the headshunt wasn't suitable for locomotives. I don't know what happens these days, but my impression is that not a great deal has changed on Via Rail since 1990, and some trains certainly still have rear observation cars.

I understand from another thread that Amtrak's long-distance trains usually have the sleeping cars at the back and ordinary coaches at the front, with the dining car in between; this implies that either the whole train has to be turned, or some shunting is needed to get the parts in the right order for the return journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

On the westbound California Zephyr, the train enters Denver and must reverse out before taking a "wye" up the Rockies to ensure the train is the correct way round. It really is a faff.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Some prewar trains in Britain had special observation carriages, like this one, with end windows at just one end. Not only did the locomotive have to be turned at the end of the journey, but the observation carriage had also to be turned and moved to the other end of the train.

 

[Ianno87]

Eh? The issue was with the Eurotunnel Krupp rescue locos not being cleared for Ashford, not the Eurostar sets.

AIUI the locos are now cleared for Ashford.

I think they were cleared the very next day

 

[BestWestern]

Very much so. It is one of a number of reasons that HSTs are considered obsolescent, and their use now has a finite cut off date.

There is no 'finite cut off date' for the use of HSTs. Two fleets will be overhauled in the coming years for further use by Scotrail and GWR . These will continue to operate daily on the mainline railway network for some years to come. Modifications will be carried out which resolve the toilet waste issue, as well as power sliding doors that will be compliant with access requirements. These trains will be free to operate for as long as is required, and will not be considered obselete for quite some time.

 

[43096]

There is no 'finite cut off date' for the use of HSTs. Two fleets will be overhauled in the coming years for further use by Scotrail and GWR . These will continue to operate daily on the mainline railway network for some years to come. Modifications will be carried out which resolve the toilet waste issue, as well as power sliding doors that will be compliant with access requirements. These trains will be free to operate for as long as is required, and will not be considered obselete for quite some time.

Three fleets.... XC's sets are also being done.

 

[BestWestern]

Three fleets.... XC's sets are also being done.

Good

 

[daikilo]

For the record, from the early days, loco-release cross-overs existed between the "berth" end of certain terminal platforms, but to be os use, this required the adjacent platform to be empty. Occasionally there was an additional (third) track although it was not a good use of space. I have no idea whether any still exist other than possibly on heritage railways, but I am sure old photos will have some. Indeed, the book "London's Termini" by Alan A Jackson shows a track plan of St Pancras with one in between the then easternmost platforms in I think 1958.

 

[Deepgreen]

The USA was also fond of balloon loops. I believe that Grand Central Station is a particularly grand (pardon the pun) example.

Not heard this term before - is this how the Kennington loop on the LU Northern line should be described?

 

[Deepgreen]

For the record, from the early days, loco-release cross-overs existed between the "berth" end of certain terminal platforms, but to be os use, this required the adjacent platform to be empty. Occasionally there was an additional (third) track although it was not a good use of space. I have no idea whether any still exist other than possibly on heritage railways, but I am sure old photos will have some. Indeed, the book "London's Termini" by Alan A Jackson shows a track plan of St Pancras with one in between the then easternmost platforms in I think 1958.

Third (centre) release roads were quite common - Victoria had at least one, as did Liverpool Street.