Arriva Rail North DOO

[ANorthernGuard]

Yesterday a Northern service I was on was delayed by around 20 minutes. While the guard was passing through doing revenue duties a lady sat near me asked him about whether the train would arrive at the terminus station in time for her connection. Not that long ago a guard would have found out the platform number in case the connection could just be made and also the time of the following service for the passenger in case they didn't make it. However, the guard yesterday just gave a "I Dunno" type response. Maybe there would be more work for the on board staff to do if some of the guards didn't have a can't be arsed attitude.

Maybe your attitude towards Northern and its staff not just some but the majority that you seem to have a problem with is getting beyond a joke. If you do not like Northern or its staff maybe find another Method of Transport as your posts are very rarely constructive and in a lot of cases down right insulting to train crew.

 

[Darandio]

I don't know of any on board staff i.e. Drivers and Guards who were consulted about DOO.

That doesn't match my experience either.

Are we talking prior consultation before the bombshell was dropped?

 

[LowLevel]

Yesterday a Northern service I was on was delayed by around 20 minutes. While the guard was passing through doing revenue duties a lady sat near me asked him about whether the train would arrive at the terminus station in time for her connection. Not that long ago a guard would have found out the platform number in case the connection could just be made and also the time of the following service for the passenger in case they didn't make it. However, the guard yesterday just gave a "I Dunno" type response. Maybe there would be more work for the on board staff to do if some of the guards didn't have a can't be arsed attitude.

Naturally on the basis that that surgeon was butchering his patients for fun and sport and every now and then a police officer gets done for being bent we should use isolated incidents as justification for taking shots at or binning their profession too. This has been done many times over. Most guards are conscientious hard-working people who care. A few are a waste of space. The company should be using the disciplinary process to manage them or remove them.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know of any on board staff i.e. Drivers and Guards who were consulted about DOO.

That doesn't match my experience either.

Are we talking prior consultation before the bombshell was dropped?

DfT held a public consultation which was held online with events at big stations including Manchester Piccadilly. If guards chose not to partake in it then they chose to not have a say on the future of their role. The RMT submitted a response but like some have already said the arguments in favour of guards sound better when they come from guards not a trade union with a political agenda.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe your attitude towards Northern and its staff not just some but the majority that you seem to have a problem with is getting beyond a joke. If you do not like Northern or its staff maybe find another Method of Transport as your posts are very rarely constructive and in a lot of cases down right insulting to train crew.

Given in the past few weeks I've had a ticket clerk shout his head off at me for politely asking if he would issue a split ticket for my journey and a guard marching straight to me and demanding to know why I hadn't alight at the previous station when I had shown him a ticket to beyond the terminus station of the service I was on, I think I'm entitled to think there are people working for Northern who don't deserve to be. However, as usual you're unable to accept that there's any rogue guards and you think anyone who criticises one is a Tory with an anti-guard agenda. Grow up FFS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do have the impression, as I’ve said before, that Northern is just rotten from the top down in just about every way.

 

[northwichcat]

Naturally on the basis that that surgeon was butchering his patients for fun and sport and every now and then a police officer gets done for being bent we should use isolated incidents as justification for taking shots at or binning their profession too. This has been done many times over. Most guards are conscientious hard-working people who care. A few are a waste of space. The company should be using the disciplinary process to manage them or remove them.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to imply that all guards are like that, despite ANorthernGuard telling me I think that. However, to me it does seem that with the industrial dispute going on that guards seem to be less willing to be helpful which doesn't help improve the passenger's opinion of them, especially if they've been inconvenienced by the strikes.

 

[BurtonM]

I do have the impression, as I’ve said before, that Northern is just rotten from the top down in just about every way.

I'm starting to get that feeling after the way things have been going since the franchise change.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Given in the past few weeks I've had a ticket clerk shout his head off at me for politely asking if he would issue a split ticket for my journey and a guard marching straight to me and demanding to know why I hadn't alight at the previous station when I had shown him a ticket to beyond the terminus station of the service I was on, I think I'm entitled to think there are people working for Northern who don't deserve to be. However, as usual you're unable to accept that there's any rogue guards and you think anyone who criticises one is a Tory with an anti-guard agenda. Grow up FFS.

Me Grow Up! you are the one who constantly takes pot shots at Northern Train Crew and yes you are damn I right I will stick up for my friends and colleagues. In the past I have agreed there is a minority of staff that are not fit for the job but I have never seen anyone quite like you on this forum who seems to find everything that is bad with Northern every time you travel. So either you are very unlucky or there must be something you are doing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm starting to get that feeling after the way things have been going since the franchise change.

And before. My personal view is that Alex Hynes was the main issue, and even with effort it is a big supertanker to turn.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And before. My personal view is that Alex Hynes was the main issue, and even with effort it is a big supertanker to turn.

Alex Hynes put it on record on the employee Facebook page that he did not agree with DOO. The interim MD Alan Chaplain has done a terrible job with staff relations. He has purposely stirred the pot on the employee page more than once, thanking the Emergency Conductors aka training cut by 2 thirds staff back office personnel and many other things. Like all staff we are hoping that David Brown the new MD can hopefully bring A fresh angle to the dispute and give something that both sides can work from. At the moment all eyes are on the ASLE&F attempted agreement with Southern. If that gets voted out again it could change many things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alex Hynes was all bluster and no substance, running a very loose ship provided the publicity was done right. I would therefore not assume any such statement (on DOO or anything else) was truthful.

Shame his replacement wasn’t up to much.

 

[northwichcat]

Me Grow Up! you are the one who constantly takes pot shots at Northern Train Crew and yes you are damn I right I will stick up for my friends and colleagues. In the past I have agreed there is a minority of staff that are not fit for the job but I have never seen anyone quite like you on this forum who seems to find everything that is bad with Northern every time you travel. So either you are very unlucky or there must be something you are doing!

If it's something I'm doing it must be guards don't like passengers who always board with a valid ticket and have it ready for inspection if they do a ticket inspection.

You also don't get how customer service works. If someone experiences one bad staff member they need to have around 25-30 good experiences with staff just for their perception of the company to be neutral.

 

[Darandio]

You also don't get how customer service works. If someone experiences one bad staff member they need to experience around 25-30 good staff members just for their perception of the company to be neutral.

Is that a factoid?

 

[northwichcat]

Alex Hynes put it on record on the employee Facebook page that he did not agree with DOO. The interim MD Alan Chaplain has done a terrible job with staff relations. He has purposely stirred the pot on the employee page more than once, thanking the Emergency Conductors aka training cut by 2 thirds staff back office personnel and many other things. Like all staff we are hoping that David Brown the new MD can hopefully bring A fresh angle to the dispute and give something that both sides can work from. At the moment all eyes are on the ASLE&F attempted agreement with Southern. If that gets voted out again it could change many things.

Hynes did that because the RMT started going on about DOO and, at the time, he was MD of a rail franchise where DOO wouldn't be introduced. However, he was more than happy to accept a job with the new franchise that planned to introduce DCO before he got a better offer.

 

[northwichcat]

Is that a factoid?

No it's from the Institute of Customer Service whose information I'm currently able to access for the next couple of months.

Although, I should have actually said experiences with staff not implied they should be 25-30 different staff members.

 

[northernchris]

I do have the impression, as I’ve said before, that Northern is just rotten from the top down in just about every way.

Northern aren't that bad! Although Serco/Abellio did seem to run things better than Arriva. But I really aren't surprised some staff are a bit annoyed lately. As well as the dispute there's also been a raft of delays and short formations which they must be getting grief for

 

[BurtonM]

It feels like there've been more strikes on ATN in the past six months than most of Serco/Abellio. Granted service reliability hasn't taken a hit where they've been intending to operate, but the revenue sharks are as bad as ever, strikes are reasonably commonplace, the train refurbs are being done on what seems to be zero budget, station signage hasn't changed...

 

[driver_m]

Me Grow Up! you are the one who constantly takes pot shots at Northern Train Crew and yes you are damn I right I will stick up for my friends and colleagues. In the past I have agreed there is a minority of staff that are not fit for the job but I have never seen anyone quite like you on this forum who seems to find everything that is bad with Northern every time you travel. So either you are very unlucky or there must be something you are doing!

I've read the last few posts with interest, and it's suspicious how so many staff can be so bad in the eyes of one person. I know quite a few of the staff at a few of the Northern depots and whilst I've probably come across one or two grumps at each depot, the vast majority seem alright. I've traveled on plenty of trains where they've gone through and I can't say I've ever seen one conductor give out this can't be arsed attitude. It seems to be a big thing that if someone asks, they'll do whatever to find out, I'd say the humour has been knocked out a few of the Scouse guards though. Definitely dont seem as happy as before.

 

[northwichcat]

But I really aren't surprised some staff are a bit annoyed lately. As well as the dispute there's also been a raft of delays and short formations which they must be getting grief for

I think that's exactly what it is. One of the incidents I referred to above involved someone who's worked for Northern for over 10 years and is normally a cheerful, friendly person.

What needs to remembered is Northern will likely sell the 'second member of franchise staff' on DCO services as being an improved customer service offering. If too many passengers see grumpy members of staff then the 'keep the guard' campaign won't get the level of public support the RMT or the unions want and passengers will think Northern will offer a change they want.

If the RMT started asking questions like:
- Will the second member of staff have first aid training?
- Will the second member of staff have training in how to evacuate the train in the event of a fire?
- Will the second member of staff be allowed on the track to help move an obstruction on the line, which could otherwise delay the train severely?
Then I think a lot of passengers will take notice if Northern fail to answer them or don't give 3 yeses in response. However, the RMT want to pretend it's a choice of driver+guard or just driver so asking those important questions would expose the truth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about Northern specifically but not all guards (I suspect very few guards) have first aid training, which I personally believe to be really bad - it should in my book be mandatory for all public facing staff in any company, and for kids in schools etc.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know about Northern specifically but not all guards (I suspect very few guards) have first aid training, which I personally believe to be really bad - it should in my book be mandatory for all public facing staff in any company, and for kids in schools etc.

That's interesting, especially as one of the guards who posts on here regularly says about a guard being imperative in case the driver collapses. Yet if the guard doesn't know what to do if the driver has a heart attack (other than to phone 999) when it would be difficult for ambulance staff to get to the train, then the chance of the driver making a full recovery is reduced.

 

[coxxy]

That's interesting, especially as one of the guards who posts on here regularly says about a guard being imperative in case the driver collapses. Yet if the guard doesn't know what to do if the driver has a heart attack (other than to phone 999) when it would be difficult for ambulance staff to get to the train, then the chance of the driver making a full recovery is reduced.

Guards are no longer first aid trained for Northern. This was taken away from them around 3 years ago and are now instead "nominated persons".. the idea being that they can call 999 and ask passengers for help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guards are no longer first aid trained for Northern. This was taken away from them around 3 years ago and are now instead "nominated persons".. the idea being that they can call 999 and ask passengers for help.

Utterly appalling.

 

[Chester1]

Utterly appalling.

It borders on unbelievable. First Aid must be less than a days training and valid for at least a couple of years if not much longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It borders on unbelievable. First Aid must be less than a days training and valid for at least a couple of years if not much longer.

The Scout Association does a one day course they call First Response which is repeated every 3 years, though you can go higher if you want. It covers the basics you'd need to respond to an emergency where emergency services can be easily obtained, which would cover most situations on the railway (though I could see a benefit in a more detailed course for crews working very remote routes in winter like the S&C, Far North etc where, in very bad weather, a train could hit a landslip somewhere very remote with seriously injured passengers/driver and could, if the weather was too bad for a helicopter, be potentially waiting over an hour for help on foot or in another train).

I see no reason why such a course should not be delivered to all members of traincrew and station staff on a mandatory basis, with obvious "reasonable adjustments" for disabilities.

I would also like to see such a course offered to every schoolchild.

 

[HowardGWR]

That's interesting, especially as one of the guards who posts on here regularly says about a guard being imperative in case the driver collapses. Yet if the guard doesn't know what to do if the driver has a heart attack (other than to phone 999) when it would be difficult for ambulance staff to get to the train, then the chance of the driver making a full recovery is reduced.

If the driver has a heart attack he will almost certainly be dead. Only 6% of such victims in the US survive it.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150630135103.htm

Every year in the U.S., approximately 395,000 cases of cardiac arrest occur outside of a hospital setting, in which less than 6 percent survive.

I can't imagine the stats will be much better in the UK. Must we install defibrillator equipment in every train? Dangerous stuff to operate too. How many drivers have heart attacks at the controls each year?

Just one other thought: what medical checks are carried out on drivers? If any have a BP of over 150 : 100 and are overweight, they should be taken off duty, IMO and immediately put on BP medicine and a diet. This is a disease so easily avoided.

I don't think guards come into this potential issue at all.

 

[northwichcat]

If the driver has a heart attack he will almost certainly be dead. Only 6% of such victims in the US survive it.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150630135103.htm

I can't imagine the stats will be much better in the UK.

You're saying something very different to what the link you've provided says. It says only around 6% of those suffering a cardiac arrest outside a hospital setting in the US survive.

Not all those who have a heart attack have a cardiac arrest. A cardiac arrest is a potential serious life threatening condition which may occur during a heart attack as explained here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/heart-attack/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Also the link you've provided says the survival rate is so low because of people suffering cardiac arrests in the US not getting CPR quite often due to bystanders not knowing what to do. So you've actually provided evidence that a driver (or passenger) suffering a cardiac arrest is more likely to survive a heart attack if the guard knows CPR.

How many drivers have heart attacks at the controls each year?

So does that mean the guard isn't needed in case of something happening to the driver because the chance of something happening to the driver is very low?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must we install defibrillator equipment in every train?

There is a good case for that longer-term, yes. The more of them there are (and the more people who don't fear using them[1]) the more lives they will save.

[1] They are simplicity itself to use. Turn it on and it tells you what to do. No skills needed other than following verbal and pictorial prompts.

 

[northwichcat]

There is a good case for that longer-term, yes. The more of them there are (and the more people who don't fear using them[1]) the more lives they will save.

[1] They are simplicity itself to use. Turn it on and it tells you what to do. No skills needed other than following verbal and pictorial prompts.

My local first responders run a free course one evening every month where anyone can come along and learn how to use one as well as what else to do if they come across someone having a heart attack. I imagine other first responders do the same.