Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Tim R-T-C]

Cheers - Did TPE meet a contractual milestone by running that service?

AFAIK, they were required by their DfT contract to operate Mk3 passenger trains during 2017, with this working they legally did operate a Mk3 passenger service during 2017.

Given the stock moves and locomotive hire, I wonder how much this working cost?

 

[DarloRich]

AFAIK, they were required by their DfT contract to operate Mk3 passenger trains during 2017, with this working they legally did operate a Mk3 passenger service during 2017.

Given the stock moves and locomotive hire, I wonder how much this working cost?

less than the contractual penalties i am sure

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

AFAIK, they were required by their DfT contract to operate Mk3 passenger trains during 2017, with this working they legally did operate a Mk3 passenger service during 2017.

As I posted up-thread, the text in the franchise agreement was for both sets to be refurbished and in "unrestricted passenger service" by 30 Sept 2017.
Even if they renegotiated the date, the rest of it doesn't appear to comply.
I guess it did start the training programme for LHCS, and passengers were able to board (for one limited return trip).

 

[Philip]

If by 'get by ok' you mean that sometimes people are standing for an hour or more on these services then yes you are correct. There may be fewer instances when people can't physically fit onto the train perhaps but even then I have experienced this on EMT Liverpool services.

I think that's stretching the truth somewhat; perhaps some 2-coach 175s can get a bit crowded but the 3-coach units generally cope well aside from the normal peak-time rush. Removing first class on 185s may not free up a huge number of seats, but when capacity is as stretched as it is then, as they say, every little helps. The question is whether or not the extra revenue generated through first class tickets is more important than providing more standard capacity. There would be a fair bit more standing room created too by the removal of first class.

 

[B&I]

I think that's stretching the truth somewhat; perhaps some 2-coach 175s can get a bit crowded but the 3-coach units generally cope well aside from the normal peak-time rush. Removing first class on 185s may not free up a huge number of seats, but when capacity is as stretched as it is then, as they say, every little helps. The question is whether or not the extra revenue generated through first class tickets is more important than providing more standard capacity. There would be a fair bit more standing room created too by the removal of first class.

Trying to solve TPE overcrowding by removing first class is like trying to heal a gunshot wound with an elastoplast.

 

[D1009]

If by 'get by ok' you mean that sometimes people are standing for an hour or more on these services then yes you are correct. There may be fewer instances when people can't physically fit onto the train perhaps but even then I have experienced this on EMT Liverpool services.

Whilst it is true that there can be passengers standing for more than an hour on these trains at busy trains, they are rarely the same ones. Not that I am trying to defend TPE in any way.

 

[Starmill]

3-coach units generally cope well aside from the normal peak-time rush.

The full and standing Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon 3-car services I have been on must be a figment of my imagination then. Services between Sheffield and Manchester are even worse and they are typically 4 car.

Removing first class on 185s may not free up a huge number of seats, but when capacity is as stretched as it is then, as they say, every little helps.

You are right. A single digit number of additional seats will have no discernible impact on crowding, but this idea would clearly hit revenue in a big way. Your claim that more standing room would created is also bizarre. If you replaced the first class seating with standard class there would actually be slightly less standing room.

 

[Philip]

The full and standing Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon 3-car services I have been on must be a figment of my imagination then. Services between Sheffield and Manchester are even worse and they are typically 4 car.


You are right. A single digit number of additional seats will have no discernible impact on crowding, but this idea would clearly hit revenue in a big way. Your claim that more standing room would created is also bizarre. If you replaced the first class seating with standard class there would actually be slightly less standing room.

Remove the unnecessary doors currently separating standard and first, then the trolley area and I'm sure it would create more standing room. I've no doubt that even without first class the rush hour services would still be full and standing, but it may just provide the necessary relief on those daytime off peak services which really ought not to be overcrowded but currently are. My idea is perhaps a bit far fetched for the long distance services towards the North East, but for Hull and Leeds semi-fast services I think TPE ought to give it serious consideration, bearing in mind too that they are replacing Northern stopping services for the majority of the route which currently have no first class.

 

[mike57]

As a regular user of TPE North between Scarborough and the NW, the overcrowding is a serious problem, and its not just confined to the rush hour, or the core Leeds Manchester section. Tinkering around the edges isnt going to solve the problem. York - Scarborough can often be standing, and at all times of the day during the summer. Its reached the point where when returning to Scarborough I try to board at Oxford Road as there have been a number of occasions over the last year where people have been left behind at Piccadilly as the train is full.

Trying to run 6 tph through the core route with mainly 3 car trains makes no sense, fewer (4tph) longer trains would result in a more robust timetable.

Back to the original thread topic, I for one will be pleased if and when we see the back of the 185's, they are not suitable for the 2 hour + journeys that they are used for. The Mk3 carriages may be old, but as a long distance traveler on this route the benefits to me even if its only a couple of trains to start with:

No doors in the middle of the carriages giving a hot/cold/hot environment at every stop
Enough toilets so that even if one is out of order there are alternatives
No engine noise

So the sooner they are in use the better. I will also be interested to see how the Mk3's cope with the track between Leeds and Manchester, parts of it give a poor ride in the 185's.

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As a regular user of TPE North between Scarborough and the NW, the overcrowding is a serious problem, and its not just confined to the rush hour, or the core Leeds Manchester section. Tinkering around the edges isnt going to solve the problem. York - Scarborough can often be standing, and at all times of the day during the summer. Its reached the point where when returning to Scarborough I try to board at Oxford Road as there have been a number of occasions over the last year where people have been left behind at Piccadilly as the train is full.

Trying to run 6 tph through the core route with mainly 3 car trains makes no sense, fewer (4tph) longer trains would result in a more robust timetable.

Back to the original thread topic, I for one will be pleased if and when we see the back of the 185's, they are not suitable for the 2 hour + journeys that they are used for. The Mk3 carriages may be old, but as a long distance traveler on this route the benefits to me even if its only a couple of trains to start with:

No doors in the middle of the carriages giving a hot/cold/hot environment at every stop
Enough toilets so that even if one is out of order there are alternatives
No engine noise

So the sooner they are in use the better. I will also be interested to see how the Mk3's cope with the track between Leeds and Manchester, parts of it give a poor ride in the 185's.

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

Just as an aside, if you base your experience of the TPE core on Liverpool Scarborough services in current form it is a bit skewed. As someone who commutes Leeds-Manchester everyday and has done for a good while, the Scarborough-Liverpool is by far the most crowded service. The Piccadilly Hull for example and the Middlsborough are both signifcantly emptier generally. Ofc all are full at peaks. (Hull ones less so).

 

[AndrewE]

Just as an aside, if you base your experience of the TPE core on Liverpool Scarborough services in current form it is a bit skewed. As someone who commutes Leeds-Manchester everyday and has done for a good while, the Scarborough-Liverpool is by far the most crowded service. The Piccadilly Hull for example and the Middlsborough are both signifcantly emptier generally. Ofc all are full at peaks. (Hull ones less so).

I have been across to Yorkshire about a dozen times in the last 12 months. I usually connect into a Middlesborough train at Piccadilly, and they have mostly been f&s, especially on the Saturday when there were a lot of football supporters on, but that's to be expected when there are no spare resources for any significant strengthening. Coming back mostly mid-afternoon has generally been packed but not intolerable, I avoid travelling in the peak now so will wait until early evening even if it does mean I get home later than I would like.
I can't understand why they keep proposing a more intense service when the real need is for more capacity and resilience, which would be provided by doubling train lengths on a 4 trains an hour timetable, splitting /joining to serve a variety of eastern destinations if necessary. It seems to work OK at Preston, as I saw yesterday.

 

[DarloRich]

Back to the original thread topic, I for one will be pleased if and when we see the back of the 185's, they are not suitable for the 2 hour + journeys that they are used for. The Mk3 carriages may be old, but as a long distance traveler on this route the benefits to me even if its only a couple of trains to start with:

No doors in the middle of the carriages giving a hot/cold/hot environment at every stop
Enough toilets so that even if one is out of order there are alternatives
No engine noise

So the sooner they are in use the better. I will also be interested to see how the Mk3's cope with the track between Leeds and Manchester, parts of it give a poor ride in the 185's.

The point about 185's not being suitable for 2 hour journeys is bunkum. They are eminently suitable for the TPE routes. They are good trains if short of carriages.

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

no it doesn't. It needs longer trains, more often.

 

[D6975]

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

Have you looked at the timetable??
The xx15 and xx53 off York both go to Manchester calling only at Leeds and Huddersfield, whilst the xx23 and xx40 both have just one or two additional stops (Garforth or Dewsbury and Stalybridge).

 

[Bantamzen]

The 185s have been great for the TP routes in terms of performance, they can charge up and down the Pennines often making up time even with very poor weather conditions over the tops, providing of course they haven't got stuck behind a Northern stopper. But in terms of capacity I would go so far as to say that they lack it by at least 50% even in the off-peaks and far more in the peaks. I for one am looking forward to the 68 & MKV hauls & the 802s, but quietly feel that all that extra capacity (isn't it about 40% more?) will soon fill up and within a few years the vestibules and corridors will once again be full of more punters for most of the day, seven days a week.

 

[Phlip]

I have been across to Yorkshire about a dozen times in the last 12 months. I usually connect into a Middlesborough train at Piccadilly, and they have mostly been f&s, especially on the Saturday when there were a lot of football supporters on, but that's to be expected when there are no spare resources for any significant strengthening. Coming back mostly mid-afternoon has generally been packed but not intolerable, I avoid travelling in the peak now so will wait until early evening even if it does mean I get home later than I would like.
I can't understand why they keep proposing a more intense service when the real need is for more capacity and resilience, which would be provided by doubling train lengths on a 4 trains an hour timetable, splitting /joining to serve a variety of eastern destinations if necessary. It seems to work OK at Preston, as I saw yesterday.

Just as an aside, if you base your experience of the TPE core on Liverpool Scarborough services in current form it is a bit skewed. As someone who commutes Leeds-Manchester everyday and has done for a good while, the Scarborough-Liverpool is by far the most crowded service. The Piccadilly Hull for example and the Middlsborough are both signifcantly emptier generally. Ofc all are full at peaks. (Hull ones less so).

IMX the Hull ones are packed off peak and rammed at other times

 

[Mordac]

As a regular user of TPE North between Scarborough and the NW, the overcrowding is a serious problem, and its not just confined to the rush hour, or the core Leeds Manchester section. Tinkering around the edges isnt going to solve the problem. York - Scarborough can often be standing, and at all times of the day during the summer. Its reached the point where when returning to Scarborough I try to board at Oxford Road as there have been a number of occasions over the last year where people have been left behind at Piccadilly as the train is full.

Trying to run 6 tph through the core route with mainly 3 car trains makes no sense, fewer (4tph) longer trains would result in a more robust timetable.

Back to the original thread topic, I for one will be pleased if and when we see the back of the 185's, they are not suitable for the 2 hour + journeys that they are used for. The Mk3 carriages may be old, but as a long distance traveler on this route the benefits to me even if its only a couple of trains to start with:

No doors in the middle of the carriages giving a hot/cold/hot environment at every stop
Enough toilets so that even if one is out of order there are alternatives
No engine noise

So the sooner they are in use the better. I will also be interested to see how the Mk3's cope with the track between Leeds and Manchester, parts of it give a poor ride in the 185's.

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

Assuming the vestibule doors work, that is.

 

[YorkshireBear]

IMX the Hull ones are packed off peak and rammed at other times

Only between Leeds and Hull and Manchester and Stalybridge. The rest of the time they are bliss

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's a fair bit in recent posts of people assuming that their experience of the route is the norm, so any that differs from that is coming from a less-informed position. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

As my usual TPE journey is Dewsbury to Huddersfield (and usually only in that direction, as I live in Batley and there's less incentive to do the Dewsbury switcheroo towards Batley), I'm one of those that some would banish to Northern's stoppers. I'm personally not happy with the semi-fast plan, but I'm prepared to be surprised because it might just work...

IF people are prepared to switch to the fasts at Leeds if doing Hull to Manchester for example, and if there aren't too many Leeds to Manchester folk who'll happily swap a fast journey for a chance to get a seat on the other semi-fast which starts at Leeds.

In my experience, you can sometimes get lucky even in the peaks, particularly on the Hull service, but these occasions are the exception rather than the rule. My observations, flawed though they are, are that demand outstrips supply probably 80% of the time between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[Spartacus]

The 185s have been great for the TP routes in terms of performance, they can charge up and down the Pennines often making up time even with very poor weather conditions over the tops, providing of course they haven't got stuck behind a Northern stopper. But in terms of capacity I would go so far as to say that they lack it by at least 50% even in the off-peaks and far more in the peaks. I for one am looking forward to the 68 & MKV hauls & the 802s, but quietly feel that all that extra capacity (isn't it about 40% more?) will soon fill up and within a few years the vestibules and corridors will once again be full of more punters for most of the day, seven days a week.

If you stuck ECML length trains on you'd still struggle eventually because of the volume of traffic, one only has to travel on local motorways or roads to realise how bad things are at most hours of the day, the M62 & M1 through that core section aren't even quiet at 0500 when I'm on them. Now personally I think once 5 and 6 vehicle TPEs are standard it'll go a long way to solving things, and I'd prefer to stay at 5 trains per hour rather than 6 and bugger up timekeeping completely and put the 195s on between them

 

[Bantamzen]

If you stuck ECML length trains on you'd still struggle eventually because of the volume of traffic, one only has to travel on local motorways or roads to realise how bad things are at most hours of the day, the M62 & M1 through that core section aren't even quiet at 0500 when I'm on them. Now personally I think once 5 and 6 vehicle TPEs are standard it'll go a long way to solving things, and I'd prefer to stay at 5 trains per hour rather than 6 and bugger up timekeeping completely and put the 195s on between them

Don't get me wrong, its a big improvement but as you say the M62/M1/A1 corridors are turning more frequently into semi-permanent traffic jams. Better capacity is going to coax at least a few more off the roads, but probably nowhere near enough to alleviate all the motorway woes. And even with those extra few, add in the current passengers spending their regular journeys standing and the extra seating capacity at least in the peaks is going to be gobbled up quickly and so people will end up having to stand again.

I agree the point about frequency, 6tph with a mixture of fast, semis and skip-stoppers is going to see them falling over each other before long. Perhaps when Northern's Connect services start to run they might attract a few TP North punters to defect to the Calder Valley? It remains to be seen of course, but with new units and hopefully better timings (along with greater connectivity) it might ease the pressure a bit. Personally though I can't help but feel the best way to ease congestion on the TP North is to get it wired and benefiting from at least quicker acceleration times meaning slower services get out of the way quicker, with a view to getting as much four tracking in along the route as is possible as soon as possible to allow overtaking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Remove the unnecessary doors currently separating standard and first, then the trolley area and I'm sure it would create more standing room. I've no doubt that even without first class the rush hour services would still be full and standing, but it may just provide the necessary relief on those daytime off peak services which really ought not to be overcrowded but currently are.

The doors are barely two inches thick.

As for seating, you'd struggle to get many more rows of seats in the 1st class compartment. So you go 2+2 and gain all of five seats. You might get another four in where the trolley currently gets stored (but then you have the question of where you store the trolley). And for eight or nine seats you lose all the revenue from 1st class.

The point about 185's not being suitable for 2 hour journeys is bunkum. They are eminently suitable for the TPE routes. They are good trains if short of carriages.

Spot on. They're good trains. And they were deliberately designed with doors at thirds because of how busy the core section gets. Dwell times at Leeds and Huddersfield are dramatically shorter than they were when everyone had to squeeze out of a 158 or, even worse, a 156.

 

[Spartacus]

Exactly Arctic Troll. I expect if TPE didn't have FC to serve with the trolley, and nowhere to stow it, that the trolley would soon be consigned to the scrap heap.

 

[DarloRich]

Spot on. They're good trains. And they were deliberately designed with doors at thirds because of how busy the core section gets. Dwell times at Leeds and Huddersfield are dramatically shorter than they were when everyone had to squeeze out of a 158 or, even worse, a 156.

yet the "experts" here don't like them!

 

[Mordac]

yet the "experts" here don't like them!

Love them myself, my favourite DMU. Some people are obsessed with end doors, and deem anything with doors at thirds unsuitable suburban stock.

 

[Goldie]

When are the Mk3s expected to put in another appearance? And on what route?

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

As a daily Leeds - Manchester commuter on a 185 I would definitely say they're pretty much spot on for the job they do; if only they were longer! But they, especially the refurbed sets, strike the right balance between intercity and regional stock that reflects the useage of the TP route.

 

[B&I]

As a regular user of TPE North between Scarborough and the NW, the overcrowding is a serious problem, and its not just confined to the rush hour, or the core Leeds Manchester section. Tinkering around the edges isnt going to solve the problem. York - Scarborough can often be standing, and at all times of the day during the summer. Its reached the point where when returning to Scarborough I try to board at Oxford Road as there have been a number of occasions over the last year where people have been left behind at Piccadilly as the train is full.

Trying to run 6 tph through the core route with mainly 3 car trains makes no sense, fewer (4tph) longer trains would result in a more robust timetable.

Back to the original thread topic, I for one will be pleased if and when we see the back of the 185's, they are not suitable for the 2 hour + journeys that they are used for. The Mk3 carriages may be old, but as a long distance traveler on this route the benefits to me even if its only a couple of trains to start with:

No doors in the middle of the carriages giving a hot/cold/hot environment at every stop
Enough toilets so that even if one is out of order there are alternatives
No engine noise

So the sooner they are in use the better. I will also be interested to see how the Mk3's cope with the track between Leeds and Manchester, parts of it give a poor ride in the 185's.

To deviate York - Leeds - Manchester needs a proper intercity service, with limited stops (remove Garforth, Crossgates, Dewsbury, Stalybridge) with intercity carriages, 6 car minimum, more if they will fit. Run 3 or 4 tph, and that leaves space for a semifast hourly service calling at the smaller stops.

Out of interest, where do you think the main passenger demand to / from Scarborough comes from / goes to ? If there are enough passengers to fill 6 carriages from the far side of the Penines, that is one thing. If more demand comes from Leeds / York, would it be feasible to portion-work Scarborough with Middlesbrough on TPE (assuming both remain unelectrified for the foreseeable), and supplement capacity to Scarborough by extending the Blackpool-York train, which would also have the benefit of allowing a more frequent overall service to York and Leeds, and creating a direct link to Bradford, Halifax and East Lancashire?

 

[B&I]

The 185s have been great for the TP routes in terms of performance, they can charge up and down the Pennines often making up time even with very poor weather conditions over the tops, providing of course they haven't got stuck behind a Northern stopper. But in terms of capacity I would go so far as to say that they lack it by at least 50% even in the off-peaks and far more in the peaks. I for one am looking forward to the 68 & MKV hauls & the 802s, but quietly feel that all that extra capacity (isn't it about 40% more?) will soon fill up and within a few years the vestibules and corridors will once again be full of more punters for most of the day, seven days a week.

Exactly. How much demand is being suppressed at present by overcrowding ?

 

[Spartacus]

I don't think portion working would be likely to happen except in cases of amended timetables. It might work during the winter, but during the summer I think there's just too much demand from those coming from West of Leeds. There's always the issue of trying to get the portions to match up together too. I'm told that in theory the 68s will work to Middlesbrough as well as Scarborough, though they'll need to be cleared first......

 

[HSTEd]

My only real problem with 185s is that they are overweight fuel guzzling monsters that can't use SP differentials.
Turbostars, especially late model ones, are better trains overall I think.

The real problem with TPE that is not going away any time soon is tha the platforms at Oxford Road mean any train routed via the through platforms at Picadilly has to be relatively short.
Can't put 8x23m formations on it, or I would recommend some form of pseudo Turbostar for the job. One coach of first class and 7 standard.

And you certainly can't put 225s through there, not without an Oxford Road rebuild - unless you want to just take two of the platforms out of use.