Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Halish Railway]

Forgive me for I've written it the wrong way round....

The Liverpool to Newcastle will stop at Newton LW, the Scarborough will stop at St Helens J or Lea Green.

It's in the document I posted above earlier in the thread. Here it is again.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.net/documents/s20571/TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS AND NORTHERN MAY 2018 TIMETABLE CONSULTATION.pdf

Regarding the TPE stopping pattern being the same as the current 319 service, no it won't.

Ok, I missed that. So less direct and fast services and more skip-stop services.

 

[Bovverboy]

Just seen this on Facebook from someone I know who drives for tpe.

68030+12078+12133+10212+11018+68003.
Departed platform 7 at Picc 2041 (3L)
Arrived platform 2 at Airport 2057
Departure from Airport rescheduled (at a few minutes notice) to 2112.
No heating! (PA packed up later).
Arrived platform 6 at Picc 2137.

 

[Bungle965]

68030+12078+12133+10212+11018+68003.
Departed platform 7 at Picc 2041 (3L)
Arrived platform 2 at Airport 2057
Departure from Airport rescheduled (at a few minutes notice) to 2112.
No heating!

Power points work though!
Sam

 

[driver_m]

Ok, I missed that. So less direct and fast services and more skip-stop services.

It's only a few minutes added on, but adds a fairly big town to the network, it's only replicating the Warrington Central stop if you think of it like that. Ultimately is it there to provide a service for as many as possible or give two cities a headliner service? Maybe they should run one a day directly non stop similarly to what our lot at VT do with the 0700 services to London

 

[Halish Railway]

It's only a few minutes added on, but adds a fairly big town to the network, it's only replicating the Warrington Central stop if you think of it like that. Ultimately is it there to provide a service for as many as possible or give two cities a headliner service? Maybe they should run one a day directly non stop similarly to what our lot at VT do with the 0700 services to London

Good points, however I think it would make more sense for TPE to operate a non-stop service to compete with Northern and East Midlands Trains.

 

[Philip]

Why is it not possible to reconfigure the 185 formation into 2 and 4 coach units? It seemed a good idea for the units going off lease, should they go to Wales and Borders!

 

[Starmill]

There was no heating, a PA fault, one coach had no lighting and there was a terrible smell in some of the toilets. Some areas of the train smelled a bit... slightly damp and mildewy. As Sam says the sockets did work though which was remarkable.

 

[37057]

Why is it not possible to reconfigure the 185 formation into 2 and 4 coach units? It seemed a good idea for the units going off lease, should they go to Wales and Borders!

Not sure what use a 2 car 185 would be. Not sure punters would be happy to find a 2 car unit working vice a 4 car.

To change the way they're wired would require lots of redesign work and commissioning.

There would be a knock on effect on maintenance. For a start they wouldn't fit in their depots...

Far too many cons and not even worth getting into properly.

 

[M60lad]

After last night when is the next outing for the 68s and MK3 stock on TPE services? I know last night was some sort of test but when can we expect it back in service?

 

[xotGD]

So how many cranks turned out for this?

 

[ash39]

140+ according to a post on another forum.

Plus one confused looking lady with a suitcase.

 

[Philip]

Not sure what use a 2 car 185 would be. Not sure punters would be happy to find a 2 car unit working vice a 4 car.

To change the way they're wired would require lots of redesign work and commissioning.

There would be a knock on effect on maintenance. For a start they wouldn't fit in their depots...

Far too many cons and not even worth getting into properly.

Logistics aside, a 2-car 185 with first class removed would probably do for off peak semi-fast Manchester to Leeds services. Perhaps it may even be worth TPE considering removing first class from all 185s once they're off the York and Scotland routes. It just isn't necessary for routes like Manchester to Hull and Manchester to Sheffield and the extra standard capacity it would create would be of more benefit.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The majority of capacity problems are on such flows as Huddersfield to Leeds in the morning and return in the evening. Myself I have no issue standing for 18 minutes to get home. If you want a train service where no one stands up to travel to or from work then carry on dreaming.

...

The primary issues are in the peaks mostly, where nearly everyone wants to travel on the same train at times, for example the 1709 from Leeds, the 1725 from Leeds and the 1740 from Leeds, all heading towards Huddersfield. No matter how many carriages you supply, the train will be full.

Try travelling down south in the peak and then complain about overcrowding on TPE.

With respect, I think you are seriously mistaken.

You are correct that short distance commuting such as Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds, Warrington to Manchester and suchlike do pose a capacity problem. And I also agree that it would be unrealistic for every person doing those relatively short journeys to get a seat. Standing up for 18 minutes or so, would, as you say, be no different to The South where everyone likes to say has a far superior rail network.

But the real issue on TPE, as alluded to by other posters, is at a weekend and especially on Sundays. At these times a reduced level of service, lack of 6 car sets and huge numbers of longer distance leisure travellers such as hen parties, stag dos, sports fans, shoppers, students going to and from home and many others means that people are having to stand up - and in many cases wedged in like the central core of London Underground during the week - all the way from Liverpool to Leeds, or Newcastle to Leeds, Manchester to Sheffield / Doncaster, Hull to Leeds - all long journeys well in excess of the 18 minutes you say people should just accept. Should they also just accept and be happy to stand up and wedged in for 60 - 120 minutes?

Add in the fact that whenever engineering works affects weekend services the affected services are normally simply withdrawn, without any effort to increase capacity on the remaining services, making them even worse.

Travelling on Friday evenings and at weekends on TPE really is a most unpleasant experience - far worse than a short distance midweek commute.

It is also bad for business as the TPE business seems to rely a lot on leisure travel. Commuters, like in the South, are a relatively captive market and will always have to commute from Huddersfield to Leeds.

It is a problem certainly not unique to TPE - but it is one which affects them worse than many others. It seems the issue is widely ignored by TOC management (not just at TPE) but also more widely by the DfT who only ever seem bothered by midweek commuter crowding and not weekend leisure travellers.

 

[Bovverboy]

140+ according to a post on another forum.

Plus one confused looking lady with a suitcase.

Actually, a few 'normal' passengers travelled, with luggage, both to and from the airport. I don't think they were aware that anything special was going on.

 

[alexl92]

Are the ex-Pretendolino coaches going to be repainted for the TPE services? I noticed they’re still in unbranded Virgin livery.

 

[Starmill]

But the real issue on TPE, as alluded to by other posters, is at a weekend and especially on Sundays. At these times a reduced level of service, lack of 6 car sets and huge numbers of longer distance leisure travellers such as hen parties, stag dos, sports fans, shoppers, students going to and from home and many others means that people are having to stand up - and in many cases wedged in like the central core of London Underground during the week - all the way from Liverpool to Leeds, or Newcastle to Leeds, Manchester to Sheffield / Doncaster, Hull to Leeds - all long journeys well in excess of the 18 minutes you say people should just accept.

This is absolutely true. I understand that 27th December in particular saw trains full and standing for journeys well in excess of 2 hours in some cases. Of course, this problem also affected other operators of long-distance trains, but TPE had no seat reservations either and less capacity to shift around to react to periods of high demand such as Easter or Christmas. I myself have stood for Leeds to Manchester and vv on many occasions, and often not at weekday peak times.

 

[GW43125]

This is absolutely true. I understand that 27th December in particular saw trains full and standing for journeys well in excess of 2 hours in some cases. Of course, this problem also affected other operators of long-distance trains, but TPE had no seat reservations either and less capacity to shift around to react to periods of high demand such as Easter or Christmas. I myself have stood for Leeds to Manchester and vv on many occasions, and often not at weekday peak times.

I travelled on TPE during the Easter Holidays this year, first move was a single 185 standing Doncaster to Man Airport-the best part of two hours. We weren't the only standees. It was the same story, an even cosier single 185 Leeds-Selby later in the day. I can't help but feel TPE is going the same way with XC and their Voyagers-a victim of their own success.

 

[Bovverboy]

I travelled on TPE during the Easter Holidays this year, first move was a single 185 standing Doncaster to Man Airport-the best part of two hours. We weren't the only standees. It was the same story, an even cosier single 185 Leeds-Selby later in the day. I can't help but feel TPE is going the same way with XC and their Voyagers-a victim of their own success.

It's ultimately the government which decides how many trains a TOC can have, and governments see overcrowded trains as potentially saving themselves money, so I reckon you'll always be stuck with overcrowded trains.

 

[rustbucket]

It just isn't necessary for routes like Manchester to Hull and Manchester to Sheffield and the extra standard capacity it would create would be of more benefit.

Hate to say this but you are mistaken - first class often full and overflowing between Leeds & Manchester on the Hull services and 75% full or more before leeds when heading west - 1st isn't big enough!

A lot of business travellers on this 'corridor' that like to spend 90 minutes+ in many cases working away

 

[DanNCL]

Has anyone got any photos of the first Mark 3 services yesterday (30th Dec)?

 

[Bungle965]

Has anyone got any photos of the first Mark 3 services yesterday (30th Dec)?

There are a few on Flickr that I have come across.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/60963146@N04/27627439219/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/39378615412/in/dateposted/
Sam

 

[DanNCL]

There are a few on Flickr that I have come across.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/60963146@N04/27627439219/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/39378615412/in/dateposted/
Sam

I thought they might still be in VT colours; thanks for sharing the links

 

[DarloRich]

A question ; what was the intention of running this service using the Mkiii's over xmas. A trial perhaps? I have heard a couple of other explanations but wonder which is correct.

 

[Starmill]

It seems likely it was a contractual issue rather than a practical one.

 

[Philip]

Hate to say this but you are mistaken - first class often full and overflowing between Leeds & Manchester on the Hull services and 75% full or more before leeds when heading west - 1st isn't big enough!

A lot of business travellers on this 'corridor' that like to spend 90 minutes+ in many cases working away

It is full and overflowing because the option is there, take away the option and people still have to travel and so most will go in standard and the good thing then is that part of the train won't be out of bounds for most of the passengers.

So much whinging about overcrowding on the North and South TPE routes, but when the idea of removing first class is suggested to provide more capacity, people think it's an outrageous idea. Is it really? I'm not just on about Hull either, I'm questioning the first class section on ALL TPE routes, given the desperate situation, particularly at weekends.

Manchester to Cardiff and Liverpool to Nottingham via Manc are both standard only and people get by ok on these routes, what makes TPE more 'important' that all routes and services must have a first class? The business person wanting a more luxurious environment to work in is a weak argument in my opinion; nothing wrong with standard class, a table with power sockets and a set of headphones to drown out any background noise.

 

[Halish Railway]

It is full and overflowing because the option is there, take away the option and people still have to travel and so most will go in standard and the good thing then is that part of the train won't be out of bounds for most of the passengers.

So much whinging about overcrowding on the North and South TPE routes, but when the idea of removing first class is suggested to provide more capacity, people think it's an outrageous idea. Is it really? I'm not just on about Hull either, I'm questioning the first class section on ALL TPE routes, given the desperate situation, particularly at weekends.

Manchester to Cardiff and Liverpool to Nottingham via Manc are both standard only and people get by ok on these routes, what makes TPE more 'important' that all routes and services must have a first class? The business person wanting a more luxurious environment to work in is a weak argument in my opinion; nothing wrong with standard class, a table with power sockets and a set of headphones to drown out any background noise.

You have to remember that TPE is trying to be a more 'Intercity' operator that is trying to compete and stand out next to other operators.

 

[Bantamzen]

It is full and overflowing because the option is there, take away the option and people still have to travel and so most will go in standard and the good thing then is that part of the train won't be out of bounds for most of the passengers.

So much whinging about overcrowding on the North and South TPE routes, but when the idea of removing first class is suggested to provide more capacity, people think it's an outrageous idea. Is it really? I'm not just on about Hull either, I'm questioning the first class section on ALL TPE routes, given the desperate situation, particularly at weekends.

Manchester to Cardiff and Liverpool to Nottingham via Manc are both standard only and people get by ok on these routes, what makes TPE more 'important' that all routes and services must have a first class? The business person wanting a more luxurious environment to work in is a weak argument in my opinion; nothing wrong with standard class, a table with power sockets and a set of headphones to drown out any background noise.

As a fairly regular user of the North TP, and indeed First Class I can see where you are coming from but frankly how much of a difference would making it Standard actually make? You'd at best get 6-10 extra seats (assuming that some of the space currently used by the on-board hosts were also converted), and having come back from Warrington on the 27th I can say that this would have still left more than a dozen standing just in Coach C from what I could tell for pretty much the entire Warrington-Leeds section, and indeed onto at least York judging by the number of people on P15 when we alighted. Plus TP would lose quite a few walk up First Class fares (I've seen plenty on this route) and any people upgrading (three people did on our service) and replaced with Standard fares and seasons.

The answer, as is being addressed is more carriages. It always was, reconfiguring the 185s would have never been much more than tinkering around the edges. My only concern is that even with 5 car MKV & 802s alongside any remaining 185s will still not be enough in the long run. It will be interesting to see if & how many services end up full to standing again.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems likely it was a contractual issue rather than a practical one.

Cheers - Did TPE meet a contractual milestone by running that service?

 

[Starmill]

Manchester to Cardiff and Liverpool to Nottingham via Manc are both standard only and people get by ok on these routes

If by 'get by ok' you mean that sometimes people are standing for an hour or more on these services then yes you are correct. There may be fewer instances when people can't physically fit onto the train perhaps but even then I have experienced this on EMT Liverpool services.

Cheers - Did TPE meet a contractual milestone by running that service?

I'm sure someone else will be much closer to the truth than I am, but it seems that they did.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure someone else will be much closer to the truth than I am, but it seems that they did.

thanks ( very clever - i like the cut of their gib!)