Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[DelW]

Of all the trains they can peddle, once again they choose one of the most unreliable trains on British rails as the basis of such a sham.

I suspect the 319 has been chosen because one is available, and the development work done for the diesel version gives a starting point. The intention stated for the diesel conversion is that it can be easily modified for alternative classes as and when they come off-lease, and I would expect the same aim for this version.

Also, mid 2019 it'll be ready? You mean that'll be the earliest we'll see a flex in passenger service?

Why would the development of a different version by a different organisation, affect the production of diesel conversions?

They would be mad to start a separate project with its own inevitable complications when they are seemingly still nowhere near meeting the commitments of the one they're currently mired in.

There's no mention that I can see above of Brush / Wabtec being involved in this version, so if that's correct it ought not to affect the production of diesel conversions.

 

[Jonny]

Also, hydrogen can be used to make electricity through fuel cells, which have (nominally at least) no moving parts and up to 83% efficiency. Although hydrogen has a lower energy density by volume, its energy density per unit weight is much higher than diesel.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect the 319 has been chosen because one is available, and the development work done for the diesel version gives a starting point. The intention stated for the diesel conversion is that it can be easily modified for alternative classes as and when they come off-lease, and I would expect the same aim for this version.
Why would the development of a different version by a different organisation, affect the production of diesel conversions?
There's no mention that I can see above of Brush / Wabtec being involved in this version, so if that's correct it ought not to affect the production of diesel conversions.

Agreed. Other than them both using 319s, the "Flex" programme and this hydrogen fuel-cell project are completely unrelated.

 

[edwin_m]

Considering the amount of work already carried out on packaging the gensets etc, I see no reason why a hydrogen powered genset would be much harder to accomodate, given much of the work has already been done for the diesel versions.

Not so sure about this. Although hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines exist, the main thrust of development is towards fuel cells and the quote above confirms a fuel cell for the 319 conversion. So the genset doesn't have an engine and doesn't have an alternator, which to me indicates that very little of it will be unchanged! Fuel cell vehicles also tend to be battery hybrids, as the fuel cell can't ramp up its output quickly enough to cope with acceleration, so some space has to be found for batteries as well as hydrogen tanks. Someone was proposing a fuel cell 321 conversion a couple of months back with the tanks in the roof - this looks like a me-too from Porterbrook.

 

[snowball]

I suggest not embarking here on a general discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen. There are other threads for that.

 

[anamyd]

(not my video) it's real!!! just needs to start up and move now

 

[Pete_uk]

What's the white thing under the n?

 

[t_star2001uk]

What's the white thing under the n?

Could be an intercooler....

 

[Gareth Marston]

Delay on introducing Liverpool to Chester over Halton Curve is being blamed on non delivery of 769's.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/1875m-halton-curve-rail-relaunch-15193119

£18.75m Halton Curve rail relaunch delayed by six months because of 'lack of trains'
They were expecting five trains to be delivered... but they were late

A TfW spokeswoman said it had been expecting the delivery of five trains for the service.

Well the only 5 trains it can possibly be are the 769's.

 

[Clip]

I wonder how much money would be saved using a train like this instead of just buying new; especially as now the CAF units have started mainline testing.

Are there any other hydrogen powered trains on the market for them to buy new?

 

[Cardiff123]

Delay on introducing Liverpool to Chester over Halton Curve is being blamed on non delivery of 769's.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/1875m-halton-curve-rail-relaunch-15193119



Well the only 5 trains it can possibly be are the 769's.

I see the blame game has begun, with DfT blaming TfW for the lack of trains, but who was the big champion of the conversion of 319s to 769 bi modes?
If TfW are waiting for the 769s to start running Halton Curve services, this time next year they'll still be waiting. A 6 month delay will very quickly turn into 12 months.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I see the blame game has begun, with DfT blaming TfW for the lack of trains, but who was the big champion of the conversion of 319s to 769 bi modes?
If TfW are waiting for the 769s to start running Halton Curve services, this time next year they'll still be waiting. A 6 month delay will very quickly turn into 12 months.

A lesson in ordering off the drawing board....yet Whitehall has form on this remember all those Modernisation Plan Diesels? British Railways Board were instructed to hep out British Manufacturing Industry/unemployment blackspots and so ordered stuff off the board from North British and Metrovick who had never built a diesel before. I'm sure theirs some hydrogen turkeys being developed as we speak.

 

[physics34]

A lesson in ordering off the drawing board....yet Whitehall has form on this remember all those Modernisation Plan Diesels? British Railways Board were instructed to hep out British Manufacturing Industry/unemployment blackspots and so ordered stuff off the board from North British and Metrovick who had never built a diesel before. I'm sure theirs some hydrogen turkeys being developed as we speak.

Unrealistic dates are also a big issue. It continues to be a problem with most rail projects!

 

[Rail Blues]

Still no sign of movement?

 

[krus_aragon]

If TfW are waiting for the 769s to start running Halton Curve services, this time next year they'll still be waiting. A 6 month delay will very quickly turn into 12 months.

Well over the next 12 months, other stock is due to arrive, including 230s, 153s, and 170s (and possibly even some short-term pacers). Many of these will be needed to release stock for PRM mods, but they could equally release the extra unit needed for the Halton service.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are there any other hydrogen powered trains on the market for them to buy new?

There's that Alstom Coradia.

 

[Clip]

There's that Alstom Coradia.

Have you got any further info about it?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are there any other hydrogen powered trains on the market for them to buy new?

If you combine the hydrogen with carbon before burning it (on-board or in a power station miles away), then yeah...

 

[mushroomchow]

Can't believe I'm the one breaking this news, but I actually saw it moving under its own power on test today during a walk at Kinchley Lane at about 3:30 today.

All I could say is that it was REALLY loud. It was going a fair pelt, but it was making a right racket. Could put it down to the jointed track and a relatively still day, but I do think bashers are going to enjoy the noise they make. Regular passengers on the other hand? Let's just say I hope they've added some noise insulation, because for reference I can't even hear a steam train very loudly from that distance usually and yet I could hear this thing growling like I was stood by the trackside! I had to do a double-take that it wasn't being dragged by the 31 in fact.

And nope, sorry, I didn't get any footage, as I was at the opposite end of Swithland Reservoir when I copped it. But testing has definitely begun, and I claim my £5.

 

[Class 170101]

Delay on introducing Liverpool to Chester over Halton Curve is being blamed on non delivery of 769's.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/1875m-halton-curve-rail-relaunch-15193119



Well the only 5 trains it can possibly be are the 769's.

I am surprised that the timetable fiasco hasn't been blamed.

 

[jopsuk]

Can't believe I'm the one breaking this news, but I actually saw it moving under its own power on test today during a walk at Kinchley Lane at about 3:30 today.

God this is going to deeply upset those that seemed to have staked a large part of their self worth on it never working in any way shape or form!

 

[mushroomchow]

God this is going to deeply upset those that seemed to have staked a large part of their self worth on it never working in any way shape or form!

In fairness I counted myself amongst their ranks, but I can't unsee unsee what I've seen. It works! It's just going to be horrible to ride if it's that loud in service, which can be the new 'meme' fault to pick with the 769s I guess.

 

[gingertom]

In fairness I counted myself amongst their ranks, but I can't unsee unsee what I've seen. It works! It's just going to be horrible to ride if it's that loud in service, which can be the new 'meme' fault to pick with the 769s I guess.

are there any figures for the noise level from these packs? There are for the 80x but whether these apply to the 769 I don't know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fairness I counted myself amongst their ranks, but I can't unsee unsee what I've seen. It works! It's just going to be horrible to ride if it's that loud in service, which can be the new 'meme' fault to pick with the 769s I guess.

Given that it is basically just (in bodyshell terms) a 4-car Sprinter with different transmission, is it noisier than one?

At least I suppose there's the option of sitting in the pantograph car which has no diesel engine.

 

[Bevan Price]

A lesson in ordering off the drawing board....yet Whitehall has form on this remember all those Modernisation Plan Diesels? British Railways Board were instructed to hep out British Manufacturing Industry/unemployment blackspots and so ordered stuff off the board from North British and Metrovick who had never built a diesel before. I'm sure theirs some hydrogen turkeys being developed as we speak.

Metrovick had built some locos prior to the Class 28s -- the Irish (CIE) Class A locos built with equally unreliable Crossley engines, introduced in 1955. All subsequently re-engined with more reliable EMD engines.

 

[Greybeard33]

Given that it is basically just (in bodyshell terms) a 4-car Sprinter with different transmission, is it noisier than one?

At least I suppose there's the option of sitting in the pantograph car which has no diesel engine.

The 769 MAN diesel engines develop 390kW each, versus only 213kW for the Cummins engines in the 150.

 

[mushroomchow]

I'm guessing testing won't be taking place today as it's the last day of midweek Wednesday running for GCR services and they need the line blocked out. If anybody has the time to go and take a look, tomorrow is probably your day.

I didn't see anything else after the cop on Swithland Viaduct, so my guess would be that the final test run of the day is 3:30PM - I couldn't give you a start time but would guess it roughly corresponds to the existing timetable, so get down around 10AM and you'll probably see it in action.

 

[notlob.divad]

Can't believe I'm the one breaking this news, but I actually saw it moving under its own power on test today during a walk at Kinchley Lane at about 3:30 today.

All I could say is that it was REALLY loud. It was going a fair pelt, but it was making a right racket. Could put it down to the jointed track and a relatively still day, but I do think bashers are going to enjoy the noise they make. Regular passengers on the other hand? Let's just say I hope they've added some noise insulation, because for reference I can't even hear a steam train very loudly from that distance usually and yet I could hear this thing growling like I was stood by the trackside! I had to do a double-take that it wasn't being dragged by the 31 in fact.

And nope, sorry, I didn't get any footage, as I was at the opposite end of Swithland Reservoir when I copped it. But testing has definitely begun, and I claim my £5.

Well that is finally some good news out of this project.

 

[childwallblues]

Excellent news. Hopefully they will soon be testing from Allerton.

 

[notlob.divad]

At least I suppose there's the option of sitting in the pantograph car which has no diesel engine.

So the choice appears to be:
Growl of the Diesel Generator - Whine of the Electric Motors - Thumping of the air compressor - Growl of the Diesel Generator

I can't believe I am saying it, but this might just make the Compressor car the most enjoyable to sit in.