Mobile tickets

[dcbwhaley]

What is the legal position if you buy a mobile ticket and your 'phone fails or, more likely, runs out of ambaric fluid?

Would you be in breach of bylaw 17.2?

 

[mikeg]

Your phone your responsibility. And yes. The main reason of many reasons I don't buy m tickets.

 

[Mag_seven]

What is the legal position if you buy a mobile ticket and your 'phone fails or, more likely, runs out of ambaric fluid?

Would you be in breach of bylaw 17.2?

I suspect its no different to losing a paper ticket.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I suspect its no different to losing a paper ticket.

But you haven't lost the ticket. It is still in existence on the company website

Your phone your responsibility. And yes. The main reason of many reasons I don't buy m tickets.

Because you have a dodgy phone?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What is the legal position if you buy a mobile ticket and your 'phone fails or, more likely, runs out of ambaric fluid?

Would you be in breach of bylaw 17.2?

Byelaw 17.2, unlikely unless the station/area happens to be a Compulsory Ticket Area (there are very few of those around the National Rail network, comparatively speaking).

Byelaw 18 - perhaps, on the face of it, unless you have previously had permission to travel ticketless (by staff or by notice), or have not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. But I have strong reasons to believe that, in any case, Byelaw 18 is unlawful.

Would it satisfy something more serious such as RoRA - no, as the fare has been paid, even if this cannot be shown at the time.

 

[londonboi198o5]

But you haven't lost the ticket. It is still in existence on the company website

but you miss the key point. " you can show on demand a valid ticket" no mobile power no ticket. If that was the case then people would be using that excuse all the time when caught by inspectors who dont actually have tickets they would turn around and say "oh my phone has no power but i have a M ticket"

It is the passengers responsibility to show on demand a valid ticket. If your mobile has no power then you dont have a valid ticket to show do you.

 

[xc170]

If you use an M ticket, then make sure you're phone has sufficient battery power.

As for phones failing, in 15 years I've yet to have one fail on me...

 

[dcbwhaley]

Byelaw 17.2, unlikely unless the station/area happens to be a Compulsory Ticket Area (there are very few of those around the National Rail network, comparatively speaking).

Byelaw 18 - perhaps, on the face of it, unless you have previously had permission to travel ticketless (by staff or by notice), or have not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. But I have strong reasons to believe that, in any case, Byelaw 18 is unlawful.

Would it satisfy something more serious such as RoRA - no, as the fare has been paid, even if this cannot be shown at the time.

Please forgive my ignorance. But what is RoRA. And what is a "compulsory ticket area", Cpommon sense suggests that a train is one of those

but you miss the key point. " you can show on demand a valid ticket" no mobile power no ticket. If that was the case then people would be using that excuse all the time when caught by inspectors who dont actually have tickets they would turn around and say "oh my phone has no power but i have a M ticket"

It is the passengers responsibility to show on demand a valid ticket. If your mobile has no power then you dont have a valid ticket to show do you.

But you do have a valid ticket. It would be natural justice to allow you to show the ticket at a later date before prosecuting. A good analogy would be with driving licences where if you could not display your driving licence to the police you were given a "producer and allowed a week to take it to a police station. A similar system could easily be implemented by the ToCs. The penalty fare could be much higher for failing to produce the ticket within the week than for admitting you had no ticket

 

[Essan]

Surely the analogy is if you bought a valid paper ticket but left it at home.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Surely the analogy is if you bought a valid paper ticket but left it at home.

The analogy is more like if you put your ticket in your pocket and the zip jammed.
Many trains have power sockets these days so you could charge your phone .
Do the bylaws allow you time to unjam your zip or charge your phone and show the ticket later? Or do they insist that you show your ticket at the first request?

 

[swt_passenger]

Please forgive my ignorance. But what is RoRA. And what is a "compulsory ticket area", Cpommon sense suggests that a train is one of those

RoRA = Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The current legislation defining numerous offences on the railway.

Compulsory Ticket Area:
“any area at a station which a person must not enter or be present in without being able to produce—
(a) a valid travel ticket authorising travel on a train arriving at or departing from that area; or
(b) a platform ticket authorising their entry to or presence in that area;”
As defined in The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

Hope this helps.

 

[AM9]

... But you do have a valid ticket. It would be natural justice to allow you to show the ticket at a later date before prosecuting. A good analogy would be with driving licences where if you could not display your driving licence to the police you were given a "producer and allowed a week to take it to a police station. A similar system could easily be implemented by the ToCs. The penalty fare could be much higher for failing to produce the ticket within the week than for admitting you had no ticket

Actually no. A better analogy would be the VED disc, that was required to be visible from the outside of your vehicle. Failing to display the disc was an offence, - completely separate from the obligation to pay the duty. Of course number plate recognition now allows the authorities to verify whether duty has been paid but in the past, it was used to verify the legality of a vehicle being on the public highway. As an authorised TOC person has no means of independently verifying that a passenger who 'says' my phone wont work/has a flat battery/dog ate my ticket/ etc./etc. isn't just trying it on, the TOC has a rule that a non-presentation of a ticket may be regarded as a violation of the NRCoT.
Nobody is forced to use electronic tickets (yet) so it is the responsibility of those choosing to do so to take precautions to avoid breaking the rules.

 

[paddington]

But you do have a valid ticket. It would be natural justice to allow you to show the ticket at a later date before prosecuting. A good analogy would be with driving licences where if you could not display your driving licence to the police you were given a "producer and allowed a week to take it to a police station.

With a paper ticket, you need to show it on demand rather than later on because it is possible that someone else used it to travel. The same thing could happen with m-tickets. Unless you want guards to record IMEI numbers.

The driving licence thing works because it has your name and photo. OK, if only one out of two identical twins passes a driving test they could probably get away with it for the next decade or so...

The penalty fare could be much higher for failing to produce the ticket within the week than for admitting you had no ticket

If you admit you had no ticket (and the usual stuff about ignoring opportunities to buy), you won't get a penalty fare but will be referred for prosecution

 

[dcbwhaley]

If you use an M ticket, then make sure you're phone has sufficient battery power.

As for phones failing, in 15 years I've yet to have one fail on me...

You might have sufficient

With a paper ticket, you need to show it on demand rather than later on because it is possible that someone else used it to travel. The same thing could happen with m-tickets. Unless you want guards to record IMEI numbers.

The driving licence thing works because it has your name and photo. OK, if only one out of two identical twins passes a driving test they could probably get away with it for the next decade or so...



If you admit you had no ticket (and the usual stuff about ignoring opportunities to buy), you won't get a penalty fare but will be referred for prosecution

Surely they deface the paper ticket when it is examined to avoid it been used again?

And you are a very lucky man with your phones. Or rich enough to change them every few months

 

[ainsworth74]

Please forgive my ignorance. But what is RoRA. And what is a "compulsory ticket area", Cpommon sense suggests that a train is one of those

RoRA is short for the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (that year is not a typo I actually meant 1889). Specifically Section 5 of the act which deals with ticketless travel:

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.

(1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level two on the standard scale.

(2) If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,
​

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level three on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

(4) The liability of an offender to punishment under this section shall not prejudice the recovery of any fare payable by him.

(5) In this section—

(a)“railway company” includes an operator of a train, and

(b)“operator”, in relation to a train, means the person having the management of that train for the time being.​

The most commonly used bit of that act is section 3. So you'll often see prosecution letters referring to "the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 S5(c).

With regards to a Compulsory Ticket Area whilst common sense may suggest that a train is one there is a specific legal definition of what is a Compulsory Ticket Area and, as already noted, they are rather rare. In any event they only apply to stations and will be clearly signed as being a Compulsory Ticket Area. It is, therefore, wrong to assume that just because there are barrier to a platform that the platform is a compulsory ticket area, it almost certainly is not. So Byelaw 18 is the law commonly used for ticketless travel as it is the law that applies to travelling on a train without a ticket.

But you do have a valid ticket. It would be natural justice to allow you to show the ticket at a later date before prosecuting. A good analogy would be with driving licences where if you could not display your driving licence to the police you were given a "producer and allowed a week to take it to a police station. A similar system could easily be implemented by the ToCs. The penalty fare could be much higher for failing to produce the ticket within the week than for admitting you had no ticket

I would agree that this would seem to be a sensible compromise (particularly considering that mobile tickets must be activated before departure so it's even more obvious that a person had a valid ticket). However the conditions as they currently stand do not take this pragmatic position sadly.

 

[dcbwhaley]

RoRA is short for the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (that year is not a typo I actually meant 1889). Specifically Section 5 of the act which deals with ticketless travel:



The most commonly used bit of that act is section 3. So you'll often see prosecution letters referring to "the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 S5(c).

With regards to a Compulsory Ticket Area whilst common sense may suggest that a train is one there is a specific legal definition of what is a Compulsory Ticket Area and, as already noted, they are rather rare. In any event they only apply to stations and will be clearly signed as being a Compulsory Ticket Area. It is, therefore, wrong to assume that just because there are barrier to a platform that the platform is a compulsory ticket area, it almost certainly is not. So Byelaw 18 is the law commonly used for ticketless travel as it is the law that applies to travelling on a train without a ticket.



I would agree that this would seem to be a sensible compromise (particularly considering that mobile tickets must be activated before departure so it's even more obvious that a person had a valid ticket). However the conditions as they currently stand do not take this pragmatic position sadly.

Apropos a previous post: the officer of the Railway Company can REQUEST that you show your ticket; not DEMAND that you do so. In practice no different but emphasises the unfortunate attitude of some employees towards the traveller

 

[221129]

Apropos a previous post: the officer of the Railway Company can REQUEST that you show your ticket; not DEMAND that you do so. In practice no different but emphasises the unfortunate attitude of some employees towards the traveller

The long and short of it is if you can't show your M Ticket then you must purchase a new ticket. If you fail to do that it then becomes a slam dunk prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

And if the phone has failed before the ticket has been activated, no valid ticket would be held anyway.

 

[Kite159]

And how guard get something along the lines of "Yes guard I do have a ticket, honest, but it is on my phone, but my phone's battery is dead and I don't have a charger, but honesty I do have a valid ticket" as an excuse by a fare dodger between two unbarriered stations?

 

[gordonthemoron]

On one occasion, I had a VTWC M-ticket fail to download so I had to buy a paper ticket and get a refund

 

[Silverdale]

The long and short of it is if you can't show your M Ticket then you must purchase a new ticket. If you fail to do that it then becomes a slam dunk prosecution.

Being unable to show an m-ticket isn't a special case of being unable to show a ticket. So a cold reading of byelaw 18 would be that if you started your journey at a station where you had the opportunity to purchase a ticket, the fact you cannot show your m-ticket when requested means you are in breach of that byelaw and the train company could prosecute, even if you do offer to pay for a new ticket.

 

[gord]

I quite like what Eurostar does with it's mobile ticketing which still gives you the option of printing at St Pancras if you need to. Doesn't work at Gare de Nord as it prints a ticket without the barcode on the SNCF ticket machines, so there's no way of getting through the ticket barriers. Had a little experiment when I last travelled with them. (Couldn't find any Eurostar ticket machines at Gare de Nord).

However, if your phone fails when you're already on the train, there's not a lot you can do then.

My solution is to make sure my wife also has copies of all the tickets on her phone as well when we're travelling together. No good if I'm travelling solo mind. Never had a problem bringing up tickets on my phone yet though.

 

[221129]

Being unable to show an m-ticket isn't a special case of being unable to show a ticket. So a cold reading of byelaw 18 would be that if you started your journey at a station where you had the opportunity to purchase a ticket, the fact you cannot show your m-ticket when requested means you are in breach of that byelaw and the train company could prosecute, even if you do offer to pay for a new ticket.

Correct, however the normal way of dealing with it on board is to sell a new ticket, then when that is refused or unable to happen for whatever reason is when it usually gets escalated. However I do accept that this isn't always the case.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The "strictly speaking" version has been posted by others.
But in a case where the app is at fault (rather than your phone, or it running out of battery( and staff have been made aware of the issue, I hope there would be discretion shown! Certainly what happened with the Railcard app a few months ago shows the need for it in similar circumstances.

 

[bearhugger]

Please forgive my ignorance. But what is RoRA. And what is a "compulsory ticket area", Cpommon sense suggests that a train is one of those


But you do have a valid ticket. It would be natural justice to allow you to show the ticket at a later date before prosecuting. A good analogy would be with driving licences where if you could not display your driving licence to the police you were given a "producer and allowed a week to take it to a police station. A similar system could easily be implemented by the ToCs. The penalty fare could be much higher for failing to produce the ticket within the week than for admitting you had no ticket

Going off topic so apologies for that, but do the police still do producers for driving licenses? I assumed that these days they could check at the roadside via the DVLA whether you had a license? I thought that for tax/VED, insurance and license they can call the relevant people and validate rather quickly.
The last time I was hit with a producer was the run up to christmas 2016 when Cleveland Police (my local force) were doing an operation where they were pulling over cars that had faulty lights working when it was dark nights. I had a brake light bulb that had gone that day ( i normally checkmy brake lights as i reverse up to my garage door and all was well the previous night), was pulled over, had a nice quick chat with the officer and given the producer to show that i had acted on his instructions to get the bulb replaced at a MOT garage.

Byelaw 17.2, unlikely unless the station/area happens to be a Compulsory Ticket Area (there are very few of those around the National Rail network, comparatively speaking).

Byelaw 18 - perhaps, on the face of it, unless you have previously had permission to travel ticketless (by staff or by notice), or have not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding. But I have strong reasons to believe that, in any case, Byelaw 18 is unlawful.

Would it satisfy something more serious such as RoRA - no, as the fare has been paid, even if this cannot be shown at the time.

If we are talking about Mobile tickets on this particular thread, then a mobile ticket can be purchased pretty much anytime before your journey, and as i understand it, the requirement is to activate the ticket before you board (or is that an e-ticket which may be subtley different??). Having said that, there are still areas which are difficult to get a signal. Kildale on my local line is a real signal blackspot, a rural station in a valley, but granted not many passengers use that particular station comparitvely speaking.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I usually have a battery pack with me to recharge the phone

 

[Realfish]

If you use an M ticket, then make sure you're phone has sufficient battery power.

As for phones failing, in 15 years I've yet to have one fail on me...

I have - twice! And as bad luck would have it, I was airside both times with my boarding pass on the phone. Luckily, though, I was flying with BA and on production of my passport they kindly printed me another pass to board the flight.

On the first occasion it seems that the MirrorLink facility locked the phone after check-in and it stayed locked until I got back into the UK and made my way to a Vodafone shop. The second time was a mystery. Both times the phone was full charged.

So the lesson for me is every time when I book, Virgin tell me that, 'mobile is the way to go', I politely refuse and order a paper ticket (and always will).

 

[Clip]

Ive seen guards activating peoples tickets for them with Northern over the last few weeks and some stern words for those who fail to do so -

 

[Silverdale]

If we are talking about Mobile tickets on this particular thread, then a mobile ticket can be purchased pretty much anytime before your journey, and as i understand it, the requirement is to activate the ticket before you board (or is that an e-ticket which may be subtley different??). Having said that, there are still areas which are difficult to get a signal. Kildale on my local line is a real signal blackspot, a rural station in a valley, but granted not many passengers use that particular station comparitvely speaking.

I have avoided using m-tickets since I tried them in the early days of them being implemented by CrossCountry as I found it very difficult to get a mobile signal at Willington where I needed to activate the ticket on the day of travel. However, when this was discussed on another thread recently, one contributor said that activation of an m-ticket was now an 'on-device' process, and others confirmed they could activate their m-tickets with their device witched to airplane mode, so the lack of signal should not be a problem.

Have there been instances where you have tried and failed to activate an m-ticket where you have not had a data connection?

 

[bearhugger]

I have avoided using m-tickets since I tried them in the early days of them being implemented by CrossCountry as I found it very difficult to get a mobile signal at Willington where I needed to activate the ticket on the day of travel. However, when this was discussed on another thread recently, one contributor said that activation of an m-ticket was now an 'on-device' process, and others confirmed they could activate their m-tickets with their device witched to airplane mode, so the lack of signal should not be a problem.

Have there been instances where you have tried and failed to activate an m-ticket where you have not had a data connection?

I have only used an m ticket twice and it was for local journeys. I didn’t have any issues and it would have only cost about £2.20 for a new return ticket if I had to get a new one. I didn’t know the process had changed so you didn’t need a signal, that would make a lot more sense to be able to do that. I guess you would still need a signal to buy a m ticket in the first place though?