Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[gsnedders]

If it's a software issue with braking, I'd be worried about the rest of the (SIL4) system—to have such a severe bug reach production is very concerning! (I'm struggling to think of any comparable case in aviation!)

 

[gsnedders]

Surely brake-by-wire with no direct control of the wheel brakes isn't a new thing - 1990s units with blended rheo/regen brakes would have had it, wouldn't they?
In most of the pics I've seen of modern unit cabs there's a big red stop button that presumably dumps the air, I assume the 385 has this?

Going back even further, the second generation EMUs don't have mechanical control of the brake, and they don't have a central pipe the dump the air from. They're fail-safe insofar as a voltage is required to release the brakes; the emergency brake on those just connects the brake wires to earth. That said, you don't need to be able to electronically isolate the brake (because you still isolate them in the standard way of a valve between the brake reservoir and the brake cylinder).

 

[Chuggington21]

Surely brake-by-wire with no direct control of the wheel brakes isn't a new thing - 1990s units with blended rheo/regen brakes would have had it, wouldn't they?
In most of the pics I've seen of modern unit cabs there's a big red stop button that presumably dumps the air, I assume the 385 has this?

The big red stop button doesnt dump air. It's electrical as it is with most multiple units.

 

[InOban]

Next week's light engine movements have appeared on RTT, but it wouldn't surprise me if nothing is delivered until the braking issue is sorted.

 

[Highlandspring]

004 and 122 were hauled by 67010 from Linlithgow to Craigentinny last night at 5mph.

 

[Sickandtired]

As someone who just wants a timely train service between falkirk and Edinburgh park (along with occasional football related trip to glasgow) with the chance to get a seat on maybe 80% of journeys I have to say I reckon scotrail priorities are wrong from passenger perspective. Why 385? Could they not have chosen a older proven design and got some of these built?? Scotrail want things like 5 mins off an eg journey and it is little benefit. Who noticed 5 mins? Old coaches with locks would do for heaven sake.

 

[Agent_Squash]

As someone who just wants a timely train service between falkirk and Edinburgh park (along with occasional football related trip to glasgow) with the chance to get a seat on maybe 80% of journeys I have to say I reckon scotrail priorities are wrong from passenger perspective. Why 385? Could they not have chosen a older proven design and got some of these built?? Scotrail want things like 5 mins off an eg journey and it is little benefit. Who noticed 5 mins? Old coaches with locks would do for heaven sake.

Because we live in 2018, not 1988. Time is money for lots of people.

 

[superkev]

Lets hope its only a minor teething trouble. Strange when the Hitachis on HS1 seem to have been trouble free.
K

 

[Sickandtired]

Because we live in 2018, not 1988. Time is money for lots of people.

Well they are in trouble then. Even with these new train there will continue to delays and cancellations. Not to mention not being able to work on train cause of short forming. Time is money supposedly.
You really saying 5 mins off a 50 min journey matters?? Seriously?
The railways being run from the train spotter perspective and not customers.

 

[jopsuk]

As someone who just wants a timely train service between falkirk and Edinburgh park (along with occasional football related trip to glasgow) with the chance to get a seat on maybe 80% of journeys I have to say I reckon scotrail priorities are wrong from passenger perspective. Why 385? Could they not have chosen a older proven design and got some of these built?? Scotrail want things like 5 mins off an eg journey and it is little benefit. Who noticed 5 mins? Old coaches with locks would do for heaven sake.

Scotrail wanted trains for the next 40 years, not 40 yr old trains. Manufacturers were only offering new designs, the "chose an older proven design" option was not on the table, especially with updated safety standards (something Scotrail have not control over)

What "old coaches with locks" could they have used? Where would they have got a big enough fleet?

They're having teething issues. The end result is longer and faster trains.

 

[jopsuk]

Well they are in trouble then. Even with these new train there will continue to delays and cancellations. Not to mention not being able to work on train cause of short forming. Time is money supposedly.
You really saying 5 mins off a 50 min journey matters?? Seriously?
The railways being run from the train spotter perspective and not customers.

If spotters were in charge, the Edinburgh-Glasgow mainline would be worked by elderly class 27s sandwiching a few Mark 2s, on the occasions when the 27s weren't literally on fire.

 

[DanNCL]

Well they are in trouble then. Even with these new train there will continue to delays and cancellations. Not to mention not being able to work on train cause of short forming. Time is money supposedly.
You really saying 5 mins off a 50 min journey matters?? Seriously?

The delays wouldn't be occurring if the trains actually worked properly, neither would the short forms. If the 385 introduction has gone as planned then there'd be a lot more capacity and a more reliable service than at present.

Cutting 5 minutes off of the journey time gives an extra 5 minutes turnaround time at each end, so should make the service more reliable. The benefits here aren't nessecarilly the time saving, but are the reliability improvements that come with it.

The railways being run from the train spotter perspective and not customers.

That could not be more untrue. If it was being run from the "train spotter perspective" we'd still have 37s, 47s and 55s on just about every passenger service. We don't - instead we have many units such as the 385s, which are designed for commuters and not rail enthusiasts.

 

[Sickandtired]

Well guys. As a customer, I can tell u the decisions being made are not in the interests of the customers.

 

[DanNCL]

Well guys. As a customer, I can tell u the decisions being made are not in the interests of the customers.

Yes they are made in the interests of the customers, even if it doesn't seem that way. The short forms are only because the 385s have major problems with them - whilst we don't know exactly what they are they were serious enough that the whole fleet has had to be pulled from service. It's also possible that Hitachi may have recalled the 385s after this issue, in which case ScotRail will have had no choice over the matter. Surely you'd rather be on a short formed train That works as it should than one with the right number of coaches but is potentially unsafe?

 

[scotraildriver]

Well guys. As a customer, I can tell u the decisions being made are not in the interests of the customers.

Electrification, huge increases in capacity, rebuilding of Queen St, HSTs on long distance services, whole fleet refurbishment, wi-fi, sockets - which if these are not in the interests of customers?

 

[Southsider]

Electrification, huge increases in capacity, rebuilding of Queen St, HSTs on long distance services, whole fleet refurbishment, wi-fi, sockets - which if these are not in the interests of customers?

Indeed. It must be soul destroying for Scotrail staff to see their plans and efforts undermined by project failures beyond their immediate control. I think they have done well to minimise the adverse effects.

 

[gingertom]

Yes they are made in the interests of the customers, even if it doesn't seem that way. The short forms are only because the 385s have major problems with them - whilst we don't know exactly what they are they were serious enough that the whole fleet has had to be pulled from service. It's also possible that Hitachi may have recalled the 385s after this issue, in which case ScotRail will have had no choice over the matter. Surely you'd rather be on a short formed train That works as it should than one with the right number of coaches but is potentially unsafe?

I shudder to think what could have resulted if the issue had surfaced during the decent into Queen Street.

 

[fgwrich]

Well guys. As a customer, I can tell u the decisions being made are not in the interests of the customers.

If ScotRail wasn't grounding this fleet in the interest of it's customers, then what would you have said once one of these had gone sliding through Queen Street and ended up in the pit at the front of the station? Then there would be serious safety complaints from many more than just it's passengers.

They have been grounded for a reason, yes it means there's more short forms than planned but ScotRail aren't just doing it for the sake of it!

 

[Journeyman]

Well guys. As a customer, I can tell u the decisions being made are not in the interests of the customers.

That really is quite an idiotic statement.

When ScotRail went shopping for new EMUs for Edinburgh - Glasgow, they'd have chosen on a whole range of factors, and for whatever reason chose the 385s. Yes, there's been problems with them, and while that's somewhat inexcusable, it's not something ScotRail can do much about at the moment, and they're responding as best they can. As a daily user of the E&G, I think they've done remarkably well in very difficult circumstances. I travel from Linlithgow to Glasgow at the height of the peak, and all my trains are on time, and I've got a seat on every single journey. The 365s were drafted in, modified and training completed really quickly, and as a result, the service disruption has been minimal.

I've questioned the HST decision elsewhere (which I think was incredibly dumb for various reasons), but I don't think the decision to opt for 385s can be faulted, given what we know. The 395s on HS1 have been very successful, and ScotRail wanted a high-quality product, which I think they've got. I really feel for the people in charge at the moment, who are really trying hard to get things sorted - I know some of them personally, and they're really dedicated. Your accusation that they don't care, or are running a "spotters' railway", is inaccurate and unfair.

 

[43096]

The railways being run from the train spotter perspective and not customers.

Says person who’s previous post suggested going back to loco and stock!!!!!

How ironic.

 

[Highlandspring]

They have been grounded for a reason, yes it means there's more short forms than planned but ScotRail aren't just doing it for the sake of it!

Just as a point of pedantry the 385 fleet has only been stopped for passenger services, they're still ok to run empty stock with certain conditions imposed. Indeed a 7 car ran Craigentiny to Eastfield last night and one 3 car and one 4 car are going over from Craigentinny to Corkerhill tonight for the start of west side driver training.

 

[92002]

Says person who’s previous post suggested going back to loco and stock!!!!!

How ironic.

Despite all the hype in the famous Scotsman aided on here by many. The problem was a partial brake failure. With braking still in operation on one set. There also was emergency braking available should it be needed. So no danger of anyone ending up in George Square.

The trains have been withdrawn to keep passengers safe and solve the problem.

 

[43096]

Despite all the hype in the famous Scotsman aided on here by many. The problem was a partial brake failure. With braking still in operation on one set. There also was emergency braking available should it be needed. So no danger of anyone ending up in George Square.

The trains have been withdrawn to keep passengers safe and solve the problem.

Your last two sentences appear to be contradictory - are they safe or not?

 

[92002]

Your last two sentences appear to be contradictory - are they safe or not?

The trains are safe to run on the railway but currently not allowed to carry any passengers.

 

[Sickandtired]

That really is quite an idiotic statement.

When ScotRail went shopping for new EMUs for Edinburgh - Glasgow, they'd have chosen on a whole range of factors, and for whatever reason chose the 385s. Yes, there's been problems with them, and while that's somewhat inexcusable, it's not something ScotRail can do much about at the moment, and they're responding as best they can. As a daily user of the E&G, I think they've done remarkably well in very difficult circumstances. I travel from Linlithgow to Glasgow at the height of the peak, and all my trains are on time, and I've got a seat on every single journey. The 365s were drafted in, modified and training completed really quickly, and as a result, the service disruption has been minimal.

I've questioned the HST decision elsewhere (which I think was incredibly dumb for various reasons), but I don't think the decision to opt for 385s can be faulted, given what we know. The 395s on HS1 have been very successful, and ScotRail wanted a high-quality product, which I think they've got. I really feel for the people in charge at the moment, who are really trying hard to get things sorted - I know some of them personally, and they're really dedicated. Your accusation that they don't care, or are running a "spotters' railway", is inaccurate and unfair.

Oh they care about eg main line alright. If they really had the full passenger experience at heart tho they use that capacity in a better way by Stopping every second train via fh at edin park. Dont know if the likes of bishopbriggs need that as well.
Have u ever tried getting on the dunblane service to Edinburgh at linlithgow? Do u still get a seat then?
Dont know if they do proper service and project management but somewhere on someone's risk register there must be a risk around the 385s not being fit for purpose and needing remedial work. Esp after the window fiasco. What is the mitigation in place for that risk? Are 170s being retasked to cover for those 385s?? Where are they being taken from? How is this going to affect all other routes that were just starting to see light at end of tunnel?
We dont want 385s for 385 sake. We just want trains with seats that go.
My glasgow colleagues refuse to take train now due to not stopping at ep. Change at linlithgow brings has it's own problems.

 

[Sickandtired]

The trains are safe to run on the railway but currently not allowed to carry any passengers.

Wow. Just wow. Not sure what to think about that.

 

[92002]

Nothing really to wow about. The trains have reverted to test mode. Just like they did before entering service for many Months.

 

[youngac]

and one 4 car are going over from Craigentinny to Corkerhill tonight for the start of west side driver training.

Interesting. Wonder if this means they'll be making their first trips to the Cathcart Circle and Lanark shortly.

 

[youngac]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/M19575/2018/10/06/advanced

Looks as if a unit will make a brief visit to Glasgow Central tonight.

 

[Christmas]

This must be deeply concerning for drivers. The 385 to me is just awful, poor visibility for drivers, the lack of opening cab windows, the terrible gangway, sub standard first class and spartan standard. One crisis to another and just a poor product from start to finish.