I agree totally, and that's why Strathclyde's method is so much better. I know Glasgow isn't the safest city in the UK but I felt safe on the trains. I have travelled on some trains fairly late at night and never felt unsafe. But on FGW late at night where there are barriers but no-one goes through checking tickets on the Turbos, I witnessed some very bad behaviour where a bloke was beating up a woman. I can't say he definitely wouldn't have done it if a member of staff had been present, but I'd say it's less likely.
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Northern's FREE trains into Manchester
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Now we need to work out how many people would be needed to cover these, bearing in mind they could return on another train, then do another and so forth until the end of their shift.
Seems to me that we're not talking about a huge number. These people would need to be trained up to deal with (or try and diffuse) any difficult situations and be able to rely on support from BTP or local forces, and could actually work very well.
Much better than the near invisible PCSOs and the private security guards that were used for a while and simply walked through the train and sat down and started playing with their mobile phones. Perhaps you could argue that simply walking through with a vest saying 'security' was sufficient - but it doesn't protect revenue.
Doing things on the cheap is rarely beneficial.
If I was a shareholder, I might actually try and point this out to a train company when they decide to cut staff, close ticket offices, not maintain ticket machines or anything else that is a false economy.
I might instead cut back on the design budget of all the crazy posters FCC is currently putting out - looking like magazine covers - unless First is getting these done for free as a way of showing off the design talent (of lack of) of budding designers who are currently unemployed!
Going back to the original thread topic, Northern really do have an awful attitude to fare collection and enforcement. This term, as I'm only in college 4 days a week and after 10am, its not worth having having a season ticket, so I have to buy tickets every day. I travel from Chelford, where there is no ticket machine, even though there is a covered area that would be perfect for a TVM, to Manchester. If its a shoulder peak (10.09) train, the guard always comes round, but after that its hit and miss whether they bother. Get to Piccadilly, and either the platform is not barriered, or its barriered by 4 G4S people, only one of whom is selling tickets, the others are milling around chatting, and as a result, the queue for tickets is huge (a 323 seats 290 people, is often half/two-thirds loaded even off peak and these people usually don't have tickets - imagine the size of the queue!).
My approach as a regular traveller is either to get to the front coach and leg it out to get to the queue before everyone else, or if there is no barrier to buy a return from the TVM in the station. Sure its the wrong way round, but that's their fault for not providing the facilities. I've tried knocking on the guards door on the train to ask for a ticket and been told that isn't allowed. The way I view it is that I've paid my £4.75, and yes, I've arrived on the return and go home on the outbound portions (so is in breach of the CoC) but if the guard cannot be bothered to collect fares or northern to install a TVM at Chelford, then I can't be done for fare evasion. I mean I've paid the fare and will discard the ticket after use.
The point behind this is that is whilst I, a rail enthusiast and law student, will go to such lengths to pay, I really doubt others will and so NT loose huge revenues. Also it affects the LENNON data for stations such as Chelford, as if a lot of people don't pay, the use doesn't get recorded, official figures go down and NT can then use that as reason to cut services?
My approach as a regular traveller is either to get to the front coach and leg it out to get to the queue before everyone else, or if there is no barrier to buy a return from the TVM in the station. Sure its the wrong way round, but that's their fault for not providing the facilities. I've tried knocking on the guards door on the train to ask for a ticket and been told that isn't allowed. The way I view it is that I've paid my £4.75, and yes, I've arrived on the return and go home on the outbound portions (so is in breach of the CoC) but if the guard cannot be bothered to collect fares or northern to install a TVM at Chelford, then I can't be done for fare evasion. I mean I've paid the fare and will discard the ticket after use.
The point behind this is that is whilst I, a rail enthusiast and law student, will go to such lengths to pay, I really doubt others will and so NT loose huge revenues. Also it affects the LENNON data for stations such as Chelford, as if a lot of people don't pay, the use doesn't get recorded, official figures go down and NT can then use that as reason to cut services?
The same situation happens on the TW Metro. If none of the ticket machines are working at the station you get on, you are supposed to buy the ticket at the end of your journey. But there isn't much stopping you from just walking out of the system when you arrrive at the destination.
NorthernDriver
Member
In responce to some of the DOO Comments and Guards not doing there duties!
As an ex guard and knowing the Guards i work with ARE instructed that if you can not safely get through the train then dont!
We as a company are fined approx £60 per min for lateness (Dont know the full details) But at the same time to delay a train by a minuit to collect a £1.50 fare is not practicable! I as a driver get what is termed as "a please explain" whenever i am late leaving , arriving or travelling between stations. This does not help if i have to wait for the ready to depart signal from then guard as he was selling a ticket and not doing his other duties.
In most cases the fines are more than the loss of revenue to Northern.
In some instances, ie BINGLEY station. at peak times they allow 2 mins arr & dept time. It takes 30 secs for the doors to close alone and never mind boarding. So one min late at each station because of a ticket purchase between york and manvic for example equates to a half hr delay at the last stop.
Most stations on eastern side have revenue protection assistants on the trains and at stations to help with ticket purchase and at Leeds have several ticket purchase points. the 333's have at least 1 AFC and 1 conductor as do the harrogate Branch line.
There are more issues in relation to the Drivers opening the doors on the train or DOO. take door duties away from the guard and you reduce his pay and prospects for pay. This is there future and jobs.
We as Drivers enjoy working with our guards (Unless they are idiots) and i myself dont want to do the doors and would prefer it left to the guards!
I notice a few of these comments are from non staff but "Enthusiasts" Well im not an "Enthusiast" but a rail worker and speak from a rail workers point of view.
Im not in the RMT. But if it wasnt for bob crow and his threats. most people would have a worse journey through lack of staff and delays through waiting than you would like.
As an ex guard and knowing the Guards i work with ARE instructed that if you can not safely get through the train then dont!
We as a company are fined approx £60 per min for lateness (Dont know the full details) But at the same time to delay a train by a minuit to collect a £1.50 fare is not practicable! I as a driver get what is termed as "a please explain" whenever i am late leaving , arriving or travelling between stations. This does not help if i have to wait for the ready to depart signal from then guard as he was selling a ticket and not doing his other duties.
In most cases the fines are more than the loss of revenue to Northern.
In some instances, ie BINGLEY station. at peak times they allow 2 mins arr & dept time. It takes 30 secs for the doors to close alone and never mind boarding. So one min late at each station because of a ticket purchase between york and manvic for example equates to a half hr delay at the last stop.
Most stations on eastern side have revenue protection assistants on the trains and at stations to help with ticket purchase and at Leeds have several ticket purchase points. the 333's have at least 1 AFC and 1 conductor as do the harrogate Branch line.
There are more issues in relation to the Drivers opening the doors on the train or DOO. take door duties away from the guard and you reduce his pay and prospects for pay. This is there future and jobs.
We as Drivers enjoy working with our guards (Unless they are idiots) and i myself dont want to do the doors and would prefer it left to the guards!
I notice a few of these comments are from non staff but "Enthusiasts" Well im not an "Enthusiast" but a rail worker and speak from a rail workers point of view.
Im not in the RMT. But if it wasnt for bob crow and his threats. most people would have a worse journey through lack of staff and delays through waiting than you would like.
Seems Northern care a lot more about fare collection on the eastern side then!! They also have more ticket machines at stations and proper RPI's, rather than G4 - who don't bother to check tickets properly.
Agreed. Everything Northern do "on their doorstep" (around Leeds/York) doesn't seem to be repeated on the west.
During the day after mid-morning Mon-Fri the volume of passengers has all but gone, but at weekends - SATURDAYS - the volumes are much higher than the narrow morning peak, throw in football fans, concerts at the MEN Arena and, last of all, Christmas shopping and it's a free for all.
Northern should allocate some resource to this as three sub-contract staff on £5.80 and hour (G4S) are not the answer. It would only be better if they were used in larger numbers at weekends.
The vast numbers of those that come in for free to Piccadilly at weekends, get back home free as well !(for the same reasons: no barriers/trains are packed/guards can't get through)
The railways can no longer be accused of carting around "thin air" as passenger numbers have soared despite the recession but the TOCs need to cope with the revenue problems generated by these volumes.
Lampshade
Established Member
I'm wondering why on some weekdays outside of the peak, G4S have a complete block on Piccadilly, all platforms barriered whereas now, when such a block is necessary, they don't. Surely this is what they should be doing?
Another problem is the culture in the North West though. Today for example - 11.44 Crewe Arrival into Picc - guards ticket machine was broken, so I had to queue for a good 10 mins at the barrier - the queue was a good 50 people. Yet 2 people got on at Chelford and probably the same at Goostrey - the only unmanned stations. The rest have open ticket offices at this time of day. Yet people walk past them, preferring to pay on the train, or more likely to hope the guard doesn't get to them and there are no barriers at Picc. What can be done to cure this culture? I suppose Wilmslow and Stockport can be/are barriered and the rest, well the guards need to only sell full priced tickets and not discounted ones. Though this needs to be accompanied by an increase in TVM's at stations, and having 2 windows open at stations like Wilmslow and Knutsford that have them to ensure that people don't have to queue for over 5 mins and miss their trains (We don't want to be like SWT up here 
!). Then people may start using the ticket offices and not pay on the train as much.
!). Then people may start using the ticket offices and not pay on the train as much.Failed Unit
Established Member
If you are referring to platforms 13/14, a couple of goons normally stand on the bridge near Costa coffee. The day I was there they needed a course in politeness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another problem is the culture in the North West though. Today for example - 11.44 Crewe Arrival into Picc - guards ticket machine was broken, so I had to queue for a good 10 mins at the barrier - the queue was a good 50 people. Yet 2 people got on at Chelford and probably the same at Goostrey - the only unmanned stations. The rest have open ticket offices at this time of day. Yet people walk past them, preferring to pay on the train, or more likely to hope the guard doesn't get to them and there are no barriers at Picc. What can be done to cure this culture? I suppose Wilmslow and Stockport can be/are barriered and the rest, well the guards need to only sell full priced tickets and not discounted ones. Though this needs to be accompanied by an increase in TVM's at stations, and having 2 windows open at stations like Wilmslow and Knutsford that have them to ensure that people don't have to queue for over 5 mins and miss their trains (We don't want to be like SWT up here
It is the same at Edinburgh Waverley, but what happens if you are travelling beyond Edinburgh say to Newcastle. You are stuck in the queue for and miss your onwards connection South, this does happen. When I used to live in South Gyle I was always looking for the guard to avoid this as it was impossible at busy times of the day for them to sell tickets to everyone that wants them.
My experience would bear this out. I usually catch 2 - 3 trains on Northern in West Yorks each day and I could probably count on one hand the number of times this year my ticket hasn't been checked on the train. I'm guessing this may have something to do with the large number of unstaffed halts in West Yorkshire.
royaloak
Established Member
The eastern side seem to go for it more, I got on a train from Sheffield to Castleford (2 car 144) a few weeks ago and when we got to Meadowhall the train was packed so the conductor let everyone on THEN walked down the platform got in the front door and made a fortune from the no ticket brigade because they couldnt move away from him, it was good to watch 
WillPS
Established Member
Nottingham station's barriers have yet to 'catch' me. I usually arrive/depart after 7pm, and on the times I haven't, my parents pick me up from the car park adjacent to the footbridge which is completely unguarded thus rendering the entire scheme completely pointless.
Another bit of stupid revenue protection I've seen is at Meadowhall - they stand on the footbridge in to the interchange, and all the passengers without tickets just say they've come in through the road-level entrance. Complete waste of time.
I must stress that I always travel with a ticket, but barriers annoy the hell out of me! It is my belief that if you provide enough machines and staff to sell and check a ticket (on board) then they are nearly always superfluous.
Another bit of stupid revenue protection I've seen is at Meadowhall - they stand on the footbridge in to the interchange, and all the passengers without tickets just say they've come in through the road-level entrance. Complete waste of time.
I must stress that I always travel with a ticket, but barriers annoy the hell out of me! It is my belief that if you provide enough machines and staff to sell and check a ticket (on board) then they are nearly always superfluous.
Failed Unit
Established Member
You need both anyway, otherwise if you are travelling from Sheffield - Leeds you just by a Sheffield - Meadowhall and Outward - Leeds CDR. It is a sad state of afairs but I remember someone saying that they would pay the £10 on the times they were caught as it ofset paying every day.
When I thought that if caught three times or more, you'd be referred to court, I figured the idea of waiting to get caught and handing over £20 without fuss was a risky move.
Now it's clear you don't have your details checked when you pay up immediately, it makes very good sense on a DOO service where being checked is very unlikely. Don't make a fuss, don't draw any particular attention to yourself for RPIs to get to know you, and you'll be paying £20 every now and then for free travel.
Gatelines disrupt this policy, as you have to have some sort of ticket. I suspect many buy a ticket to the next station, but it's harder to get one for the other end if there's a gateline there too. This might just force people to buy the correct ticket (although you might try the YPRC/child ticket routes, but these are more rigorously checked now).
FCC has a major problem in that Finsbury Park allows 'free' access to the Underground (or to leave and get a bus) which would effectively end this scam on the GN side.
Not sure what the equivalent is on the TL side, if there is one.
Now it's clear you don't have your details checked when you pay up immediately, it makes very good sense on a DOO service where being checked is very unlikely. Don't make a fuss, don't draw any particular attention to yourself for RPIs to get to know you, and you'll be paying £20 every now and then for free travel.
Gatelines disrupt this policy, as you have to have some sort of ticket. I suspect many buy a ticket to the next station, but it's harder to get one for the other end if there's a gateline there too. This might just force people to buy the correct ticket (although you might try the YPRC/child ticket routes, but these are more rigorously checked now).
FCC has a major problem in that Finsbury Park allows 'free' access to the Underground (or to leave and get a bus) which would effectively end this scam on the GN side.
Not sure what the equivalent is on the TL side, if there is one.
It's a 6-month "revenue exercise" to do something about the early evening "FREE" trains into Manchester (especially on Friday nights).
But on very, very busy Saturdays during the day, virtually nothing is devoted to it. Shame First didn't get the Northern franchise as, looking at what FSR do - they're much more pro-active
Yes it is technically driver only operation but I only agree with driver only operation when there is another member of staff present.
I am on your side, and with 313103, O L Leigh and others that single person manning of trains is not a good idea. I will never support it, I can assure you! I hope that clarifies
Yorkie, I am a guard based at Edinburgh for ScotRail. I am glad you do not want to see single manned trains but why do you want to see ten positions at my depot made redundant? The only way to ensure that there is a second fully trained person on board is to retain the guard on all trains.
Scotrail guards AND ticket examiners regularly patrol their trains reassuring the travelling public by sorting out anti-social behaviour and performing regular revenue checks - in fact, although I may be biased, I think that we are some of the best in that regard. I commute myself to work by rail most days & am a regular leisure traveller both in the UK & europe and I see this myself on a daily basis. Some other TOCs are absolutely shocking in their staffing levels & revenue protection.
Do you want us to go down that line? The only way to ensure a fully trained second person on board is to retain the guard. Otherwise when there is a shortage of TE's the train will really be Driver ONLY.
Guards do everything a TE can do & MORE. The MORE being the fact that we are primarily Operations Staff with our main focus being on health & safety not revenue. Every driver that I work with has stated to me that they want the guards to remain - in fact some who are now based at the new Bathgate depot wish to return to Edinburgh because they were not told it was going to be a DOO depot when they applied for the positions.
At present some trains on the Bathgate branch have in excess of 500 people on board - just think how many will be on board when the trains start running back from Helensburgh/Balloch? Do you think it is safe with just one operationally trained person in charge - how fair is it on that person? It would be bad enough if a major incident happened with only two trained members of traincrew yet that is all that we as guards, our union the RMT, and the travelling public are asking for. Is that excessive? I think not
Rant over (for now..........)
So you're against the creation of many more than 10 jobs?
Is any member of staff being made redundant?
I've praised the staff on Scotrail saying they are much better than on SWT suburbans where the guards just read papers (or, in one case, get drunk). So there is no need to say what a good job you do, as I agree with you!
But the 'more' is really about opening/closing doors (better if the driver does this where possible), and safety features that are, arguably, less safe than the requirements for DOO routes, but that's discussed in another topic.
Not as many as on the 12-coach trains out of King's Cross that are full and standing, and are genuinely 'driver only'
As I said I think there should be 2 staff per train, but please see the other topic.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30335
As for the specific question of what happens in a major incident, and whether a guard is able to leave the train and project the line 'manually' see that topic and the quotes provided by Metroland.
OK, please reply here though if you want to discuss it further
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