Beeching II - you wield the axe.....

[Esker-pades]

All of which can be served by bus/coach for less money if it comes to it - and isn't the bus quicker, too?

I don't want to see it close, but if money got tight the financial case for it is very poor.

I disagree entirely. But, we've already done the Far North economics to death here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/economic-case-for-the-far-north-line.167315/ .

 

[backontrack]

All of which can be served by bus/coach for less money if it comes to it - and isn't the bus quicker, too?

I don't want to see it close, but if money got tight the financial case for it is very poor.

Dounreay freight can't really be served by bus or coach.

The bus service has been axed a bit recently - when Stagecoach felt that they'd achieved a greater proportion of North Highlands custom, they chopped a few services.

Whenever I've been on the train it it's been full.

 

[daodao]

Many of the lines now run (if that is the right word) by Northern Fail are at risk of being chopped, including:
Wigan-Kirkby
Ormskirk-Preston
Rose Grove-Colne
Oxenholme-Windermere
Blackpool South-Kirkham
Chester-Greenbank
Settle Junction-Carnforth
Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley
Seamer-Bridlington
Barnetby-Gainsborough Junction
Habrough-Barton-on-Humber
Nunthorpe-Whitby


No freight uses these routes other than the first and last 3 lines, in the last 2 cases only as far as the junction for Immingham Docks, and Glaisdale (if I have interpreted RTT correctly), respectively.

 

[yorksrob]

Many of the lines now run (if that is the right word) by Northern Fail are at risk of being chopped, including:
Wigan-Kirkby
Ormskirk-Preston
Rose Grove-Colne
Oxenholme-Windermere
Blackpool South-Kirkham
Chester-Greenbank
Settle Junction-Carnforth
Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley
Seamer-Bridlington
Barnetby-Gainsborough Junction
Barnetby-Barton-on-Humber
Nunthorpe-Whitby


No freight uses these routes other than the first and last 3 lines, in the last 2 cases only as far as the junction for Immingham Docks, and Glaisdale, respectively

Freight is a fickle mistress that comes and goes over time. Only a good foundation of passenger usage can secure a railway. For the time being at least, these routes have a good passenger base, and should continue to do so (provided someone bothers to run a train service).

 

[daodao]

Freight is a fickle mistress that comes and goes over time. Only a good foundation of passenger usage can secure a railway. For the time being at least, these routes have a good passenger base, and should continue to do so (provided someone bothers to run a train service).

It saves fewer costs to withdraw a passenger service on a line with a current freight service. I recall visiting Birdhill station in 1971, and the stationmaster stated then that the line was less at risk of closure because of the freight traffic to Silvermines - unfortunately, that (and many other freight flows) have ceased. Freight is a fickle mistress and once it goes, unprofitable passenger services are at serious risk of being withdrawn. However, it is relevant whether there is freight traffic on a line, even if it may disappear in future, as it can enable a passenger service to survive for the time being. A good example is the Conwy Valley line, although I don't see this line as now having a long-term future, but it wasn't closed at the time of Beeching because of freight traffic to Trawsfynydd PS.

With the continuing cancellation of many services, many of the lines that I named in northern England are at serious risk of losing their passenger base, and they are then at risk of closure. As an example, a junior colleague who is a part-time student, commutes by rail intermittently from Delamere to Manchester, but is intending to seek alternative routes for attending her next batch of lectures, due to the appalling unreliability she experienced on the CLC line in November 2018.

 

[yorksrob]

It saves fewer costs to withdraw a passenger service on a line with a current freight service. I recall visiting Birdhill station in 1971, and the stationmaster stated then that the line was less at risk of closure because of the freight traffic to Silvermines - unfortunately, that (and many other freight flows) have ceased. Freight is a fickle mistress and once it goes, unprofitable passenger services are at serious risk of being withdrawn. However, it is relevant whether there is freight traffic on a line, even if it may disappear in future, as it can enable a passenger service to survive for the time being. A good example is the Conwy Valley line, although I don't see this line as now having a long-term future, but it wasn't closed at the time of Beeching because of freight traffic to Trawsfynydd PS.

With the continuing cancellation of many services, many of the lines that I named in northern England are at serious risk of losing their passenger base, and they are then at risk of closure.

This is partially true. Scare off all the passengers, as the industry has been doing its best to do over the past year and who knows what will happen.

That said, thete's no underlying social/economic reason why these areas can't justify a passenger service.

 

[backontrack]

This is partially true. Scare off all the passengers, as the industry has been doing its best to do over the past year and who knows what will happen.

That said, thete's no underlying social/economic reason why these areas can't justify a passenger service.

Indeed. Some of those lines really should not be closing.

It's a damning indictment of the Northern situation that we're even considering closure of these routes as something that could happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Some of those lines really should not be closing.

It's a damning indictment of the Northern situation that we're even considering closure of these routes as something that could happen.

I think Oxenholme-Windermere is an exception. It *looks* like the other lines, but the National Park would never allow it to close because of the extra cars it would bring in to the Park - they'd probably bring in a couple of 230s or something and contract someone else to run it rather than it close. The rest are definitely concerns, though, particularly if the "nuclear option" was to be used against the strikes.

 

[backontrack]

I think Oxenholme-Windermere is an exception. It *looks* like the other lines, but the National Park would never allow it to close because of the extra cars it would bring in to the Park - they'd probably bring in a couple of 230s or something and contract someone else to run it rather than it close. The rest are definitely concerns, though, particularly if the "nuclear option" was to be used against the strikes.

I hope you'd be right about the Lakes Line - but I hope we don't see any of the lines shut.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope you'd be right about the Lakes Line - but I hope we don't see any of the lines shut.

Agreed, I don't want to see any of them close.

 

[yorksrob]

I hope you'd be right about the Lakes Line - but I hope we don't see any of the lines shut.

Agreed, I don't want to see any of them close.

I agree. I use at least four of them several times a year.

I suppose Windermere would be comparatively easy to subsume back into TPE.

 

[WestRiding]

Many of the lines now run (if that is the right word) by Northern Fail are at risk of being chopped, including:
Wigan-Kirkby
Ormskirk-Preston
Rose Grove-Colne
Oxenholme-Windermere
Blackpool South-Kirkham
Chester-Greenbank
Settle Junction-Carnforth
Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley Extremely busy and popular running through 2 PTE areas
Seamer-Bridlington Well used and probably ideal service level
Barnetby-Gainsborough Junction
Barnetby-Barton-on-Humber No passenger service between Barnetby and Barton
Nunthorpe-Whitby Always busy when i have been on the line, and what freight is this you mention?


No freight uses these routes other than the first and last 3 lines, in the last 2 cases only as far as the junction for Immingham Docks, and Glaisdale, respectively

Are they????? Why? I can only comment on the lines i use and know.
Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley Extremely busy and popular running through 2 PTE areas
Seamer-Bridlington Well used and probably ideal service level
Barnetby-Gainsborough Junction
Barnetby-Barton-on-Humber No passenger service between Barnetby and Barton
Nunthorpe-Whitby Always busy when i have been on the line, and what freight is this you mention?

 

[daodao]

Are they????? Why? I can only comment on the lines i use and know.
Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley Extremely busy and popular running through 2 PTE areas
Seamer-Bridlington Well used and probably ideal service level
Barnetby-Gainsborough Junction
Barnetby-Barton-on-Humber No passenger service between Barnetby and Barton
Nunthorpe-Whitby Always busy when i have been on the line, and what freight is this you mention?

Apologies - I should have stated Habrough to Barton-on-Humber.

There appear to be some freight paths on RTT to/from Glaisdale, so I assume that there are occasional freight trains to/from this point.

The point of my post was to highlight the risk that cancellation of many services on Northern Fail's lesser routes makes these lines of little use to potential travellers. This is driving away custom to the extent that the subsidy per passenger will become hard to justify, and the lines are then at risk of potential closure. I am not advocating their closure. The problem does appear to be worse west of the Pennines than in Yorkshire/Lincolnshire.

T

 

[WestRiding]

The G

Apologies - I should have stated Habrough to Barton-on-Humber.

There appear to be some freight paths on RTT to/from Glaisdale, so I assume that there are occasional freight trains to/from this point.

The point of my post was to highlight the risk that cancellation of many services on Northern Fail's lesser routes makes these lines of little use to potential travellers. This is driving away custom to the extent that the subsidy per passenger will become hard to justify, and the lines are then at risk of potential closure. I am not advocating their closure. The problem does appear to be worse west of the Pennines than in Yorkshire/Lincolnshire.

T

No worries,
The Glaisdale paths are just Ballast/Engineering workings. No meaningful freight.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

We have trains and buses connecting the Tendring coast and intermediate villages to Colchester, and the trains are vastly more popular than the buses, which are surely only surviving from the free travel. Yesterday, around 100 people got off one single Colchester Town arrival. The train seems to be an extraordinarily good way of serving the local towns and villages

People hate travelling by slow uncomfortable buses, with good reason. Shut down Arlesford and Great Bently stations and the rail passengers will switch to cars, they won't go near the buses.

 

[700007]

Close St Pancras International. After Brexit, nobody needs to go abroad. GTR's timetable has still not fully bedded in. The MML never got the electrification works done..

Just turn it into the shopping mall it always wanted to be.

Oh, and you can now extend the champagne bar even longer.


That's funny.

 

[nw1]

No stations or lines closed at all, but...

Reduce frequency off peak on a number of inter-city routes to free up capacity and paths. Compensate by making trains longer where possible.

Three specific examples:

Euston to Birmingham and Manchester reduced to 30 mins off peak, to allow 30 min clockface service on Cov-NS and Stockport-Manchester corridors and de-congest the railway. There would still be three trains an hour in the peak on each route, using the two off peak paths and a third path unused off peak.

Return the MML to the old pattern of two fasts and two semi-fasts an hour, the fast overtaking the semi-fast at Leicester. Alternate Sheffield and Nottingham endpoints for each.

This next one would only be possible by returning to BR or combining Chiltern, GWR and XC into one TOC, but anyway.... rationalise (by removing perhaps duplicate services), but at the same time, improve the total capacity, on the Reading-Birmingham corridor. Firstly run all Bournemouth-Manchesters with at least 8 coaches, and 12 at busy times, north of Reading. Divert one Marylebone-Birmingham an hour to Paddington (via Reading and Oxford) and New Street (via Solihull as now), providing both the second Paddington to Oxford an hour (in addition to the Worcester) and the second Reading to Birmingham (in addition to the Bournemouth). Both services (the retained Marylebone and this new service) to be 12 coaches. 8 coaches of this new Paddington to New Street to continue north of Birmingham as an XC-style service as now.

Ensure all three services are timed to provide even interval services between Reading-Birmingham, London-Oxford and London-Banbury/Leamington.

This would mean 32-36 coaches an hour between Banbury and Leamington on fast services vice around 20 now; 20 to 24 between Reading and Birmingham vice 10 max now; and 24 between Leamington and London (vice around 10 now).

Also <duck> return Thameslink to its 1988 state. It seems the introduction of the new timetable has caused no end of problems and has caused 'classic' services into the termini to suffer as a result. Maintain high frequency on the core by running a London Bridge-St Pancras high frequency shuttle.

 

[mlambeuk]

Not so much a total axe but Teesside to York Direct services should be axed on a Saturday.

 

[backontrack]

Not so much a total axe but Teesside to York Direct services should be axed on a Saturday.

...why?