My idea for XC to use electric trains between Manchester and Birmingham to boost capacity.

[VT 390]

Yes it would, which was also my concern, but as noted above the success of the London Northwestern Trent valley services and slower LNR London - Birmingham services suggests that there is a market for passengers willing to take a more circuitous or slower route for a cheaper fare, and perhaps a better chance of a quieter train.

I had not thought about the cost but that does make sense as XC can b very expensive compared to other operators. Also it would give Wilmslow a direct service to Birmingham and provide an alternative to the Voyagers.

 

[yorksrob]

Which LNER service runs Birmingham to Crewe?

It's clear in the context of the discussion that Yorksrob was actually referring to the London Northwestern Railway (LNR/LNWR) service.

Yes, it's mildly surprising in this environmentally-conscious age that, within the past twenty years, the Manchester - Birmingham service has actually become more polluting.

Though of course when the Voyagers were designed and built the idea of a 125mph underfloor engine diesel unit was itself quite an ambitious concept; the idea of bi-mode operation was still a long way off.

Yes, apologies for the typo

 

[tbtc]

It does seem crazy that the rail service between England's second and third cities is all diesel despite being 100% wired all the way!

True.

It also seems strange that the only rail service between the two cities is probably less than five hundred Standard Class seats per hour (especially as Wolverhampton, Stoke and Stockport have pretty reasonable intermediate populations too).

But, like many other arguments we have on here, the "tail" is more important than the "dog". The small number of people making occasional long distance journeys outweigh the larger number who might make regular journeys. So commuters on the Manchester - Stockport - Stoke - Wolverhampton - Birmingham axis are crammed onto short diesel trains because it's seen as more important to maintain regular hourly services to Bournemouth/ Exeter than it is to focus on the larger number of people making local journeys.

It'll be a long time until HS2 provides the capacity boost that Manchester - Birmingham needs. In the meantime, I'd look into eight/ten coach EMUs to provide the bulk of services between the cities (use the Voyagers to provide capacity increases on the other XC lines, run a token through service from Exeter/ Bournemouth a couple of times a day if it matters to you that much).

 

[sprinterguy]

But, like many other arguments we have on here, the "tail" is more important than the "dog". The small number of people making occasional long distance journeys outweigh the larger number who might make regular journeys. So commuters on the Manchester - Stockport - Stoke - Wolverhampton - Birmingham axis are crammed onto short diesel trains because it's seen as more important to maintain regular hourly services to Bournemouth/ Exeter than it is to focus on the larger number of people making local journeys.

Hear hear! Hit the nail on the head.

It'll be a long time until HS2 provides the capacity boost that Manchester - Birmingham needs. In the meantime, I'd look into eight/ten coach EMUs to provide the bulk of services between the cities (use the Voyagers to provide capacity increases on the other XC lines, run a token through service from Exeter/ Bournemouth a couple of times a day if it matters to you that much).

I'd be quite happy retaining one through Voyager each hour, say on the Manchester - Bristol corridor. But it would be nice if at least one train an hour on the route was formed of 8 - 10 carriages of electric stock: It was pure bliss when Virgin were providing a 9 or 11-car Pendolino between Birmingham International and Manchester in the path of the Bournemouth - Manchester train during the Euston blockades. I also used to make regular use of the early morning Manchester - Birmingham - Euston Pendolino for a far more relaxing travelling environment.

 

[Ianno87]

True.

It also seems strange that the only rail service between the two cities is probably less than five hundred Standard Class seats per hour (especially as Wolverhampton, Stoke and Stockport have pretty reasonable intermediate populations too).

But, like many other arguments we have on here, the "tail" is more important than the "dog". The small number of people making occasional long distance journeys outweigh the larger number who might make regular journeys. So commuters on the Manchester - Stockport - Stoke - Wolverhampton - Birmingham axis are crammed onto short diesel trains because it's seen as more important to maintain regular hourly services to Bournemouth/ Exeter than it is to focus on the larger number of people making local journeys.

It'll be a long time until HS2 provides the capacity boost that Manchester - Birmingham needs. In the meantime, I'd look into eight/ten coach EMUs to provide the bulk of services between the cities (use the Voyagers to provide capacity increases on the other XC lines, run a token through service from Exeter/ Bournemouth a couple of times a day if it matters to you that much).

Hear hear! Hit the nail on the head.

I'd be quite happy retaining one through Voyager each hour, say on the Manchester - Bristol corridor. But it would be nice if at least one train an hour on the route was formed of 8 - 10 carriages of electric stock: It was pure bliss when Virgin were providing a 9 or 11-car Pendolino between Birmingham International and Manchester in the path of the Bournemouth - Manchester train during the Euston blockades. I also used to make regular use of the early morning Manchester - Birmingham - Euston Pendolino for a far more relaxing travelling environment.

<**CRAZY IDEA KLAXON GOES OFF**>

What about a partial solution as follows:

Manchester-Bournemouth service to be split in two:
1. Manchester Piccadilly - New Street/International/Coventry as EMU
2. Birmingham *Moor Street* (bay platform) - Bournemouth as Voyager

Gets around New Street platform capacity issue by using Moor Street from the South.
[EDIT: Also gives a connection to Curzon Street for HS2, eventually]

Down side would be keeping the through International/Coventry - Oxford/Reading links; unless the WMT Kenilworth service sufficed for that (suitably strengthened).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd run 1tph Manchester to Bristol (8 car Voyager) and 1tph EMU to Intl.

 

[cactustwirly]

Dismissed by whom? Posters on a forum? There would be no way that even if XC did want to use an EMU which they don't, that it would happen within the next 12 months...

Unless you have a magical solution to fit sliding doors within 4 months, then the HSTs are out.
Wabtec are the only ones who are able to do this, and they have a huge order backlog

 

[cactustwirly]

I'd run 1tph Manchester to Bristol (8 car Voyager) and 1tph EMU to Intl.

And what about the service to Bournemouth?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Howabout Class 91/MkIV Manchester-Coventry?

 

[30907]

Might depend if they effectively 'Do a Ryanair' and get it in peoples' heads as being "Manchester", marketing the Metrolink connection (if a long, slow one...)

Or advertise the frequent, under-used trains to everywhere in Lancashire, Yorkshire and beyond (see regular moans on this forum!)?

 

[yorksrob]

Am I correct in thinking Manchester gets an hourly service to Bournemouth and an hourly towards Bristol ?

If so, how about combining these and splitting at Birmingham, and using the spare path for a long electric to Birmingham International.

That way you get two long trains an hour between the two cities !

There seem to be various potential solutions that could benefit thic City pairing.

 

[geoffk]

Could they not extend the LNER Birmingham - Crewe to Manchester ?

Might relieve some pressure.

More useful to extend to Mcr Airport, surely (if enough platform space).

 

[yorksrob]

More useful to extend to Mcr Airport, surely (if enough platform space).

I suppose it depends how many from the Midlands use the airport as a link. As a railhead for Greater Manchester, I think just going to Manchester would be better.

 

[PartyOperator]

Birmingham airport is better as an airport and Crewe is better as a rail interchange for most people coming from the West Midlands. I can't see there being any great demand for trains to Manchester airport from Birmingham.

 

[takno]

Birmingham airport is better as an airport and Crewe is better as a rail interchange for most people coming from the West Midlands. I can't see there being any great demand for trains to Manchester airport from Birmingham.

There are dozens of destinations you can get to from Manchester that you can't get to from Birmingham. Hell, do Birmingham even have a year-round flight to the US at the moment?

 

[Ianno87]

Am I correct in thinking Manchester gets an hourly service to Bournemouth and an hourly towards Bristol ?

If so, how about combining these and splitting at Birmingham, and using the spare path for a long electric to Birmingham International.

That way you get two long trains an hour between the two cities !

There seem to be various potential solutions that could benefit thic City pairing.

Down side is effectively restricting the south of Brum legs to single voyagers, not helping capacity there.

 

[yorksrob]

Down side is effectively restricting the south of Brum legs to single voyagers, not helping capacity there.

This is true. I experienced this problem very much between Birmingham and Reading in pre-Voyager days.

I suppose if they're not already doubled up, they might consider running additional medium distance services on those legs, although this is more difficult without electrification.

 

[VT 390]

Am I correct in thinking Manchester gets an hourly service to Bournemouth and an hourly towards Bristol ?

If so, how about combining these and splitting at Birmingham, and using the spare path for a long electric to Birmingham International.

That way you get two long trains an hour between the two cities !

There seem to be various potential solutions that could benefit thic City pairing.

The Bristol and Bournemouth services arrive at Birmingham almost half and hour apart so without a major timetable change this would not be possible.

 

[The Planner]

Not convinced about this International solution, are people suggesting Manchester - International EMU and a Voyager picking up the route from there to Bournemouth and a Voyager from New St for Bristol/South West?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what about the service to Bournemouth?

From the NE only but with additional capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

If you took my solution (combining the hourly Bournemouth/Bristol services) there are plenty of IC225 sets going spare to run the additional Manc - Birmingham services.

 

[Ianno87]

From the NE only but with additional capacity.

That's less capacity efficient at New St with an additional Stour side to Derby side reversing crossing move twice per hour.

 

[cactustwirly]

From the NE only but with additional capacity.

The NE service already goes to Southampton, so are you gonna half the capacity from Birmingham to Reading?

 

[sprinterguy]

Not convinced about this International solution, are people suggesting Manchester - International EMU and a Voyager picking up the route from there to Bournemouth and a Voyager from New St for Bristol/South West?

Can't speak for others but personally what I've envisaged is:

Manchester - Birmingham International EMU
Birmingham New Street - Bournemouth Voyager
Manchester Piccadilly - Bristol/Exeter Voyager

Each service being hourly, of course. Though I readily admit that I've no idea if that works in terms of pathing between Birmingham New Street and International. It worked while the Euston blockades were on but there may well have been fewer London - Birmingham services running.

 

[furnessvale]

The ONLY sensible option is the insertion of an additional (electric) vehicle in each Voyager set.

This idea was squashed years ago by DfT and Bombardier. Strange how bi-modes are now the flavour of the month, but for all the wrong reasons.

The new interpretation of bi-mode is an excuse to curtail proper electrification where it is needed, as opposed to its true purpose of filling gaps between existing main lines until they can be wired.

 

[The Planner]

Though I readily admit that I've no idea if that works in terms of pathing between Birmingham New Street and International. It worked while the Euston blockades were on but there may well have been fewer London - Birmingham services running.

Which is why I wanted a bit of clarification , it doesn't...

 

[Kettledrum]

Whilst a significant number of XC passengers change at Birmingham, there are also a significant number who stay on, and I'd be concerned if all the Manchester to Bournemouth through trains were stopped.

I don't see that there are the paths or platforms at New Street for any additional electric trains from Manchester, so what if any new electric trains were additional and only went from Manchester to Wolverhampton? There are already plenty of trains between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, such as the Liverpool electric trains as well as the existing XC ones, so passengers could change at Wolverhampton if they hadn't caught one of the direct/ existing XC ones.

I know it's not ideal, but the XC trains through the central core of their routes are chronically overcrowded - and only 4 or 5 coaches. This doesn't make best use of New Street's limited capacity at all.

 

[Facing Back]

Is there much capacity coming south out of Manchester Piccadilly and peak times? I thought it was pretty much full even using the Heald Green route to Wilmslow to bypass Stockport?

 

[GingerSte]

If you took my solution (combining the hourly Bournemouth/Bristol services) there are plenty of IC225 sets going spare to run the additional Manc - Birmingham services.

Could you have Mark IV coaches (from the IC225 sets) with HST power cars (or any other diesel-powered locos)?

 

[yorksrob]

Could you have Mark IV coaches (from the IC225 sets) with HST power cars (or any other diesel-powered locos)?

It would depend on whether it would be worth re-wiring them.

On the other hand, it's been said that the 91's are near to the end of their working life. Perhaps a shorter, more self contained existance between Birmingham and Manchester might enable them to be less intensively used and reliability to be increased.