New stock for Glasgow subway?

[DaveNewcastle]

(I missed this when it was published a couple of weeks ago)

Plans to replace the trains on the Glasgow Subway.
Can't make sense of the photo in the article - but that's probs just typical poor press reporting.
Its true that the existing trains are rattling into a high maintenance regime, but at 30 years since their last replacements, thery're not old by some standards.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/drivers-face-axe-in-spt-s-290m-plan-to-revamp-the-subway-1.1020270

And I have to ask . . . Driver-less?

 

[MCR247]

The photo is of the DLR which has driver-less trains

 

[CarterUSM]

Amazingly, before the last refurb, the system had ran very well for years. I'm no expert, but i believe it is currently possible for the units to be driverless. I don't know how muchl driving is actually done anyway. The pay is miles behind heavy rail.

 

[WatcherZero]

Going for simple driverless trains I guess?. £400m doesnt seem enough for reboring tunnels or creating new bores for platforms as has been mooted in the past.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

CarterUSM, they are driven fully manually - I've been shown round the system a couple of times ( last time was about 10 years ago though ) and got a really good look at everything.

 

[CarterUSM]

There is also occasional talk of extending the network to the east end, partly using old heavy rail tunnels as well as boring new ones, The quoted price usually gives me a chuckle. I wasn't sure about that Peter, is it not currently possible togo driverless at the moment?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . before the last refurb, the system had ran very well for years. . . .

I remember them well. I got quite a surprise to think that they're up for renewal already - I still think of them as "new".
Which led me to wonder if that's the best use of investment in Glasgow transport?

I liked the old trains' concertina'd grilles on the vestibules where there's now those modern door-thingy's.

£400m doesnt seem enough for reboring tunnels or creating new bores for platforms as has been mooted in the past.

Quite right.
When new tunnel bores are built then they'll include a request-stop in your basement. And mine.

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, it makes you wonder what the actual 70's refurb consisted of. I never had the pleasure of travelling on the old stock though, had to make do with the transport museum!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I never had the pleasure of travelling on the old stock though, had to make do with the transport museum!!

That's a shame. It really was fun! Those grille doors (like old elevators) gave passengers a very noisy, windy, rattley and smelly experience!
Coupled with the "design feature" (which still exists, of course) of water drips from above, and the accelerating downward descent from each station and the de-ccelerating approaches to stations made the whole system a lot of fun!

But it never took me to/from anywhere that I wanted to travel, though.
And that remains one of the system's biggest handicaps. Rather like Chicago's downtown loop - a circle that goes somewhere which was really very very useful a hundred years ago . . but now?

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, it is not the service that it was. They want to cut opening hours on Sundays even more. If SPT are to be believed, it is haemorrhaging money also. It is, however , ideal for getting to Ibrox, and doing one of those pub crawls where you have a pint at each stations local!!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So, if its usefulness has declined so much, will the circle still be operating in another 30 years?

If it linked Queen Street and Central Stations, if it connected with some of the new developments which might arise near the cleared Gorbals (not too far from West Street Station?), and
. . . . .
(I've hesitated for so long before saying this)
. . . .
and was extended to the airport
then its future might be assured.

But as it is. I think, sadly, that it may be doomed.

 

[CarterUSM]

I honestly think crossrail in any form is also doomed. The subway also ran a replacement bus service calling all stations late saturdays/early sunday mornings at one time. Don't know what happened to that.

 

[WatcherZero]

Quite right.
When new tunnel bores are built then they'll include a request-stop in your basement. And mine.

Yeah its a good think Glaswegians arent any taller, ive seen little old women banging their heads the cars are so small.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wasn't sure about that Peter, is it not currently possible to go driverless at the moment?

I don't think so, although as I said both my visits were some time ago, but I haven't heard of that being introduced in the interim.

Come to think of it - do they even still do visits around the system? Maybe I should ask them...?


Meanwhile, I have a book which gives a very comprehensive history of the system; it's very readable. It is called Circles Under the Clyde by John Wright and Ian MacLean, ISBn 1-85414-190-2 but I understand it is now out of print, however there should be copies floating around on the stalls at open days, galas and other railway related events. Well worth buying.

 

[Bittern]

I wouldn't get on a plane without a pilot, and I'm sure as hell not getting on a train without a driver.

Yeah its a good think Glaswegians arent any taller, ive seen little old women banging their heads the cars are so small.

Two of my mates are around 6 feet tall. and both times we used the subway, they had to duck quite a bit when standing.

 

[MCR247]

I wouldn't get on a plane without a pilot, and I'm sure as hell not getting on a train without a driver.

You must be alone in that because millions use The DLR. I think they already were automatic, the driver just opened/closed the doors like on the Victoria Line, and the new stock would eliminate that

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Bittern, a large number of airline flights are now made virtually fully automatically anyway.

If you've landed in poor weather, the chances are it'll have been an automatic landing, though pilots are instructed to do a certain number of approaches manually in order to keep their skills up.

After take off, most aircraft will be put on autopilot and left on it until the early stages of approach. In theory it is entirely possible to pre-set an autopilot with all the waypoints and if there are no routing changes made during the flight, to not touch the controls again until it has touched down!

Prior to 9/11 I had several rides in the Flight Observer's Seat and on one of those occasions the landing was fully automatic - the pilots had their hands ready by the controls, a couple of inches off, in case of a last moment problem, but they never once touched anything between establishing on final approach and the end of the brake application on the runway after landing.

Quite interesting watching the throttle and flap levers move themselves ever so slightly during the approach - reminded me a bit like watching one of those pianos where the keys play without anyone sitting there!


Of course, this is not quite the same thing because the pilots are physically there at all times and ready to instantly take over / make any neccessary adjustments, but it does show what can be done.

 

[jopsuk]

I wouldn't get on a plane without a pilot, and I'm sure as hell not getting on a train without a driver.

Avoid all of these systems then. Just so you know where your "enemy" is. Plus, as said, pilots aren't needed for flying, they're there as fleshy back-up for when the geese hit the turbofans.

 

[142094]

You must be alone in that because millions use The DLR. I think they already were automatic, the driver just opened/closed the doors like on the Victoria Line, and the new stock would eliminate that

Was in the paper last week that a man had fallen onto the track on the DLR and was run over by one before the staff could stop it. Brings up the debate about whether he would still be alive if it had a driver.

 

[CarterUSM]

Avoid all of these systems then. Just so you know where your "enemy" is. Plus, as said, pilots aren't needed for flying, they're there as fleshy back-up for when the geese hit the turbofans.

So the 'driver' doesn't really drive then?

 

[WatcherZero]

operates the doors and hits the brakes if somethings on the track.

 

[transportphoto]

While were on the subject of the DLR - what are the pannels at hte front of the units (which are covered in standard opperation) used for?
I have often seen these been opened by the PSA and they 'fiddle' with a couple of buttons.

 

[A60K]

They are Emergency Driving Panels - they have a Traction Brake Control stick, door control buttons, horn, wiper and ancillary equipment switches.

 

[transportphoto]

Ah, Right then.

That has always puzzled me.

Thanks - now back on to the Glasgow Subway!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Glasgow Subway is automatic, like the Victoria line, with the operator just controlling the doors and pressing the start buttons. Don't believe me, here is what SPT has to say "Trains in passenger operation are semi-automatic, where the drivers allow Automatic Train Operation (ATO) to fully control speed and stopping in stations." Not sure how long it's been the case for though.
Wonder if it will be a DLR type system where someone still operates the doors and gives the start command, or fully automatic. It sounds like the latter (especially with the talk of staff redundancies). As much as I'm happy with the idea of computers driving train (or flying planes), being at 30000ft or under the ground without a competant person capable of taking over in the event of a problem is not so comforting. The other problem with fully automatic is door control. No human to judge when it's best to close the doors and to make sure nothing or no-one is trapped, it's all automatic. Might work in other countries, but not here, people arn't sensible enough.

 

[CarterUSM]

That's the way I thought it operated, I'm sure I read somewhere that the 'driver' was there just to allay any of the publics fears.

 

[WatcherZero]

Door closing and clearing the train to proceed could be handled by platform controls.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Door closing and clearing the train to proceed could be handled by platform controls.

In theory, yes, but, there are no platform staff on Glasgow Underground either!

 

[A60K]

I suspect by platform controls something like the Lille system - fully auto trains with platform screen doors.

 

[jopsuk]

They are Emergency Driving Panels - they have a Traction Brake Control stick, door control buttons, horn, wiper and ancillary equipment switches.

I have on occasions seen the PSA operating the train "normally" (ie not driving) but from the Driving Panel rather than door panels- recently I used the DLR when it was running a Lewisham-West India Quay shuttle (due to engineering) and this was the method of operation.