Irish Mk 3's

[yorksrob]

Hello all,

In the railway press I've recently seen a couple of letters suggesting that in the current stringent financial climate, we should purchase the 130 or so Mk 3carriages built by or under license of BR in the mid 1980's for Irish Railways but which are now up for auction by the Irish Government as surpluss to requirements.

As a passenger who has an interest in railway affairs but who has never been employed by the railway, the idea intrigues me, afterall we are very used to Mk 3's and these ones should have theoretically at least 15 years left in them.

My question is to all of you in the know, bearing in mind the age of the stock and the necessity for it to be re gauged and refurbished, is this an idea that could work or is it a non-starter and how much cheaper would it actually be than buying new trains.

One thing I noticed from Wikipedia (however accurate that is) is that whilst the carriages are electrically different from UK Mk 3's (loco hauled and HST), they are wired to work in push-pull formation in lengths of six or less carriages, so they may be suited to displace some sorely needed DMU'S.

Another issue is where would they work. The routes which spring to mind for me would be longer distance diesel routes which are either used by DMU's in multiple or suffer from overcrowding such as:

Waterloo - Exeter and west
NW and W England to E Anglia
Trans Pennine and possibly Glasgow - Edinburgh

Also, what locomotives would be suitable? I presume there aren't enough 33's wired for push - pull about anymore?

I'd be interested in any thoughts.

 

[142094]

I have a no idea about it but it does sound like a good thing to do. You'd think that the cost would be smaller than buying new, and also should take much less time.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes indeed. Sounds like an excellent idea to me, although as is always the case, the devil is in the detail !

 

[455driver]

Waterloo - Exeter and west

What about all the trains that split/join at Salisbury?

Quite agree though, these coaches should be bought and re-gauged to ease overcrowding, I am sure it would be cheaper than waiting for the government to decide to build anything new.

 

[yorksrob]

What about all the trains that split/join at Salisbury?

Yes indeed, you would lose some of the flexibility to split and divide multiple units. Were they to decide to use them on the South West main line, I'd hope they'd gave passengers the benefit of the doubt and run longer trains further west rather than reducing train frequency (as far as I'm aware they don't have any splitting with different portions going to different destinations).

 

[Royston Vasey]

It'd certainly be good to see from a passenger point of view. I'd think we'd need to find some ETS fitted, probably diesel, locos as well though, there aren't many 67s and the 47s that are left just aren't reliable enough for front line service. Leaving either off the shelf new build which isn't easy with our narrow gauge system, or thrifty rebuilds, another batch of 57s perhaps, or even reengineer some 56s, 37s or the worst 60s for passenger use in a similar vein!

As I think you lot would say "hellfire" haha!

 

[starrymarkb]

Yes they do, sets split for Bristol and Exeter at Salisbury

AIUI the Irish coaches are not in good condition and will cost a lot to do up, might be worth looking at CAF Mk4s?

 

[455driver]

(as far as I'm aware they don't have any splitting with different portions going to different destinations).

Unfortunately they do, the 0920 and 1220 and 1720? split with the front 3 or six going Exeter and the middle or rear 3 going Brizzle.

 

[yorksrob]

yes, personally I'd love to see 47 haulage again - but whatever we had would have to be nearly as reliable as a DMU.

Yes they do, sets split for Bristol and Exeter at Salisbury

AIUI the Irish coaches are not in good condition and will cost a lot to do up, might be worth looking at CAF Mk4s?

Sadly I think they're still using those ones

 

[CarterUSM]

Sounds like not a bad idea at first thought, but what a sad indictment of how far the UK has fallen, imagine actually buying back coaches we built ourselves from the irish.

 

[Daimler]

Certainly a good idea - and I seem to recall Chiltern are doing just that with a few of them*, to form new Birmingham services (they will be extensively refurbished - to a greater extent than any Mk3 refurbishment yet seen, apparently).

*though I could be wrong - it's a while since I heard anything about it. Chiltern are certainly refurbishing Mk3s for Birmingham services, anyway.

 

[Crossforth]

I assume that is why there is a DVT in Chiltern colours then?

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC Chiltern's Mk3s aren't Irish as they are fitting plug doors (the Irish ones already have them) also IE were keeping the Mk3s in best condition, the ones for sale are the dregs of the fleet.


I did mean to order a batch of Mk4s rather then use the Irish ones. Alternativly somthing like the IE 22000s specced well. Both Designs are to UK crash/RVAR standards (the Irish have adopted them as good practice)

 

[tbtc]

Sounds like not a bad idea at first thought, but what a sad indictment of how far the UK has fallen, imagine actually buying back coaches we built ourselves from the irish.

Yeah; the fact that we are even discussing this (bearing in mind the coaches are two thirds of their way through life, and would need a lot of money throwing at them even if picked up for free) shows how things have slipped.

There are certainly routes where that kind of capacity would be very useful though; I'd suggest the Aberdeen - Glasgow, Aberdeen - Edinburgh and the Manchester - Cardiff routes as other potentials.

Can't see if happening, of course

ETA: Makes you realise how different the UK railways would be if we could import stock from the rest of Europe (e.g. common widths) - forums like this would be full of speculation about redundant EMUs from Belgium or the potential to swap our 158s for a class of Italian units...

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah; the fact that we are even discussing this (bearing in mind the coaches are two thirds of their way through life, and would need a lot of money throwing at them even if picked up for free) shows how things have slipped.

There are certainly routes where that kind of capacity would be very useful though; I'd suggest the Aberdeen - Glasgow, Aberdeen - Edinburgh and the Manchester - Cardiff routes as other potentials.

Can't see if happening, of course

ETA: Makes you realise how different the UK railways would be if we could import stock from the rest of Europe (e.g. common widths) - forums like this would be full of speculation about redundant EMUs from Belgium or the potential to swap our 158s for a class of Italian units...

Indeed, or if the powers that be hadn't sold off and destroyed our own rolling stock manufacturing industry for nothing other than dubious ideology.

Anyway, I digress. I don't think we should feel too bad about doing up some Irish Mk 3's -afterall, they were a British design originally, and it's not as if we haven't bought any new trains ourselves over the past few years.

 

[anthony263]

maybe some of the irish MK3's could be used on the cardiff - Holyhead services as well as the Milford Haven - Manchester.

 

[TDK]

Yes indeed. Sounds like an excellent idea to me, although as is always the case, the devil is in the detail !

May sound good but where will you get the serviceable bogies from to regauge? They wil only ever be of use as spares I would say!

 

[Daimler]

May sound good but where will you get the serviceable bogies from to regauge? They wil only ever be of use as spares I would say!

I had heard rumours that Chiltern were looking at the large number of redundant Mk3 sleepers lying around and being used as volunteer accomodation at preserved lines.

I don't know if there's any truth in that though - I can't remember where I heard it, and I haven't heard anything about it since.

 

[starrymarkb]

Sleeper conversions have been tried by GNER and wern't successful

 

[455driver]

All GNER did was buy the coaches, no conversion work was carried out so how can you say it was unsuccessful?

 

[route:oxford]

All GNER did was buy the coaches, no conversion work was carried out so how can you say it was unsuccessful?

Success or otherwise doesn't always come from getting out the cutting torches.

As I recall from on here and in the railway press, hopefully someone else will also remember...

When GNER, or their engineering partners, undertook an analysis of the sleeper carriage it was found that the structural integrity of the coach would be fundamentally compromised by the planned alterations (to the windows).

I don't recall the problem being reported as being related to internal alterations, (but that may simply be through the passage of time). If that is the case, I suppose the internal partitians and furniture could be stripped out and rebuilt and replaced with the now standard high-density seating.

Can you just imagine the discussions on these forums though? Whilst the vast majority of passengers would just be happy that their service was on time and they had a seat, others would be seriously distressed that very few seats would be adjacent to a window.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When GNER, or their engineering partners, undertook an analysis of the sleeper carriage it was found that the structural integrity of the coach would be fundamentally compromised by the planned alterations (to the windows).

A leasing company did convert one Sleeper to a day carriage once; I saw this particular vehicle on display at a Railtex exhibition as a "proof of concept" but yes it was weakened - apparently the framework inside a Sleeper is different from a standard Mk3 as a number the structural members are positioned where in a standard Mk3 the windows are!

The vehicle was in fact too weak to be moved by rail and had to be taken to and from Railtex on a low loader!

However, it was not made clear whether the structure could have been re-inforced for a production conversion run ( economy of scale and all that ) should any order have materialised.

 

[4SRKT]

Any would-be bashers getting excited about the prospect of a drop of much needed loco-haulage should be reminded that the IR Mk IIIs were built from new with swing plug doors, and therefore don't have the large opening droplight window of BR Mk III doors that is so important for leaning out to appreciate the sights and sounds!

On a more serious note, I have heard from contacts in Ireland that the Irish Government is thinking on more or less the same lines WRT these coaches. Ireland has if anything a worse financial situation than Britain, and its own stock purchashing is under review. Irish Rail may well need these coaches for their own purposes and so they may not be on the market soon.

 

[90019]

Sleeper conversions have been tried by GNER and wern't successful

I think he means as a source of bogies rather than conversions.

 

[mumrar]

That's how I read it, taking bogies from the sleeper vehicles for the Irish mk3s. Anyway, lets see DB Regio/Laing Rail prove the theory right about what's possible, then hopefully more can be bought. Perhaps Virgin/DfT should have looked at an option of retro fitting powered doors to our home grown mk3s plus MTU fitment instead of foisting Voyagers upon us.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting point about the bogies. I know a lot of slammers were rebogied in the 50's and I assume these were new bogies installed, although how much greater a proportion of the cost of a railway carriage bogies for 1970's stock would be as compared to 50's bogies I have no idea.

If the Irish Republic is thinking of re-using them, perhaps that shows that they are worth snapping up!

 

[TDK]

Interesting point about the bogies. I know a lot of slammers were rebogied in the 50's and I assume these were new bogies installed, although how much greater a proportion of the cost of a railway carriage bogies for 1970's stock would be as compared to 50's bogies I have no idea.

If the Irish Republic is thinking of re-using them, perhaps that shows that they are worth snapping up!

As previously quoted only worth snapping up if you have the serviceable bogies to replace the ones already installed. I can only see these Irish coaches being bought if the buyer has spare bogies either from existing demec Mk 3 coaches or sleepers. To convert these coaches also is a major task, look how long it took for GC and WSMR to get their refurbed coaches and I suspect the cost was higher than expected and these were in British gauge with the existing British slam door format.

 

[yorksrob]

Those are interesting points. I wonder how many Mk 3 sleepers there are about which could potentially be a sourse for bogies. As previous posters have mentioned, the bodywork of the sleeper coaches themselves aren't really properly configured for day time travel so they might be more use with the Irish carriages.

 

[asylumxl]

What rail enthusiasts seem to ignore is that one of the main reasons MK3s+HSTs are up for replacement is the lack/cost of spares and repairs. Eventually the cost will be prohibitive and the coaches would be better off replaced.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Those are interesting points. I wonder how many Mk 3 sleepers there are about which could potentially be a sourse for bogies.

I seem to recall reading some years ago that all the stored Sleepers had their bogies switched before they went into store, meaning that to stored ones are on the poorest bogies.