Irish Mk 3's

[yorksrob]

What rail enthusiasts seem to ignore is that one of the main reasons MK3s+HSTs are up for replacement is the lack/cost of spares and repairs. Eventually the cost will be prohibitive and the coaches would be better off replaced.

Speaking of all Mk3's, I could understand the argument perhaps, if there are just a few examples - as with the Lymington CIG's, but where there are vast numbers of vehicles remaining - for example with the Mk 3's, not to mention large numbers of Mk 3 based multiple units, shouldn't there be somebody still knocking out spares in bulk?

 

[CarterUSM]

Speaking of all Mk3's, I could understand the argument perhaps, if there are just a few examples - as with the Lymington CIG's, but where there are vast numbers of vehicles remaining - for example with the Mk 3's, not to mention large numbers of Mk 3 based multiple units, shouldn't there be somebody still knocking out spares in bulk?

That puzzles me also, though if there were a market for it, i'm sure they would.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes indeed. I find it hard to believe there isn't.

Perhaps if all of the TOC's using BR era rolling stock made a joint database of all their spare parts they had in stock, they could form an agreement agreeing to sell any spares to a fellow TOC at cost price on a first come first served basis.

Then, as part of the agreement, if a TOC needed a part which no-one had available, instead of ordering one part, it would order a suitable multiple (say 20 for smaller parts) and make the remaining 19 available for purchase at cost price. The TOC's would then be able to purchase at cost price any surpluss spare parts bought by the other TOC's.

I apologise in advance for my lack of originality if such a system already exists.

 

[asylumxl]

Well for one, most of the MK3 based stock is in heavy use still, with very little rolling stock lying around doing nothing.

The MK3 coaches use completely different bogies to the MK3 based units. HST/Locohauled MK3s use BT10.

Out of AC units, A 317 uses BP20, 318 uses BT13 and BP20, 319 uses T3-7 and P7-4, as do the 321/322.

It continues in a similar fashion for the other MK3 based units.

So please pray tell me where to find compatible spares and how you would rebogie these coaches to be servicable?

 

[yorksrob]

I think the point I was trying to make above is that rolling stock becomes prohibatively difficult to maintain when there are so few units that bespoke spare parts have to be ordered and manufactured especially. Because there are so many of all types of Mk 3 which are going to be around for a very long time, there should be no reason not to order spares in multiple, thus reduing costs.

With regards to the Irish Mk 3's, presuming there are no bogies that could be salvaged from elswhere (I don't know - which is why I began this thread) I have no idea how much it would cost to manufacture new ones and whether this cost would make it not worth the bother as compared to purchasing new stock (any views welcome), or indeed, whether we are in such a financial tight spot that we would need go for the cheapest option of getting anything on the rails, regardless of what sort of long term value for money it achieved.

 

[captainbigun]

A fair few BT10s have been recovered from the various vehicles, especially sleepers, that have been scrapped.

Beyond that it isn't beyond the wit of man to fabricate new bogies. New BP10s are being fabricated as many are now starting to fail due to age.

 

[asylumxl]

A fair few BT10s have been recovered from the various vehicles, especially sleepers, that have been scrapped.

Beyond that it isn't beyond the wit of man to fabricate new bogies. New BP10s are being fabricated as many are now starting to fail due to age.

And when they all begin to fail?

 

[captainbigun]

Fabricate some more....the alternative is rather more expensive!

When I said many are failing, that isn't quite correct, some are now failing (not physically failing, but are worn out of tolerence).

 

[fgwrich]

What rail enthusiasts seem to ignore is that one of the main reasons MK3s+HSTs are up for replacement is the lack/cost of spares and repairs. Eventually the cost will be prohibitive and the coaches would be better off replaced.

Fully agree - but theres one main problem that has not been mentioned on here, to run them over here, they would require a long & expensive rewire - unless you brought the IE Mk3 Gen vans too...

The IE MK3s where built to 220/380V, 50 Hz due to the fact that at the time, The IE Locos would not be providing head end power, and thus can only be power from a gen van, unlike the situation over here where our coaches are powered through ETS/ETH provided by the loco.

IE Mk3 Power Rating : 220/380V, 50 Hz
BR HST Mk3 : 3-phase 415/240V
BR LHCS : 1000V DC (Mark 3A/B)

Thus meaning, not only would they require an expensive bogie change and or overhaul, but also a complete and costly rewire aswell, and we know how long it seems to take us to complete a Mk3 Rewire don't we...Ie GC & W&S...

http://irishrailwaylocomotivesandrollingstock.fotopic.net/p33880822.html

Sorry to put a dampner on this thread...I for one would love to see the ex IE Mk3s brought back into use over here!

Also, Iarnród Éireann has already started there program of scrapping some of the worst condition Mk3s (including the Cú na Mara set / The ex BREL International set) and with the rest of the fleet in store round the back of Inchicore, unless someone takes action soon or the irish financial market dosent pick up sooner than later, then the future remains bleak for the remaining Mk3s...

The only bit of good news regarding Iarnród Éireanns Mk3s, is that four of the Gen Vans have been taken up to York Road (Belfast), with the intention of NIR converting & repainting them to work with the Enterprise De Dietrich Ferroviaire (now Alstom DDF) Constructed stock - thus heavily reducing the requirement of the 201 Class to provide head end power...which in turn, should hopefully reduce there fairly high failure rate*

*Since the Enterprise's upgrade to 201s & DDF Stock, the 201 have provided head end power aswell as powering themselves, resulting in the loco having to run fully on power notch 8 all day, from start to finnish, which of course does no good for the engines themselves...And of course the 201s are not helped by the fact the were designed to haul a max of 7 coaches, wheres IE has run the enterprise with 8...

 

[jamesontheroad]

The only bit of good news regarding Iarnród Éireanns Mk3s, is that four of the Gen Vans have been taken up to York Road (Belfast), with the intention of NIR converting & repainting them to work with the Enterprise De Dietrich Ferroviaire (now Alstom DDF) Constructed stock - thus heavily reducing the requirement of the 201 Class to provide head end power...which in turn, should hopefully reduce there fairly high failure rate*

Photos here: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1779/t/Enterprise-Mk3-Generator-Van.html

Looking smart!

 

[455driver]

.

IE Mk3 Power Rating : 220/380V, 50 Hz
BR HST Mk3 : 3-phase 415/240V
BR LHCS : 1000V DC (Mark 3A/B)

Thus meaning, not only would they require an expensive bogie change and or overhaul, but also a complete and costly rewire aswell, and we know how long it seems to take us to complete a Mk3 Rewire don't we...Ie GC & W&S

Dont forget the Cross Country ones, they were done quite quickly, so it is possible. I am sure that if, say, 20 were bought then it would be written in the refurbishment contract how long it will take, simples.

 

[fgwrich]

Photos here: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1779/t/Enterprise-Mk3-Generator-Van.html

Looking smart!

Ah, Havent seen that before - certainly does look smart...the only downside through is where the top of the green band finnishes, rather than going all the way to the top of the vents, but at least it's painted up and almost ready to roll - note that the corridor as been completley removed...

And i have to say, im impressed with the quickness of York Road depot...unlike there infamous DBSO & The Gatwick Set saga, which by the way,has now been split and is now sitting in the sidings at Lisburn & the back of Fort William Depot (NI)...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont forget the Cross Country ones, they were done quite quickly, so it is possible. I am sure that if, say, 20 were bought then it would be written in the refurbishment contract how long it will take, simples.

True - had forgotten about the XC Mk3s...

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'm surprised that a couple of BT10 bogies can't be sent to China, reverse engineered and replicas produced relatively cheaply. It is what Chinese manufacturers do best. The design patents should long have expired by now.

From indirect experience of the manufacturing industry in China, although certain quality issues need to be controlled, the Chinese are very good at following instructions to produce to a tight and well-defined specification.

What they are not as good at is being given a problem to design a solution around, for example "we need to develop a new bogie to deal with this mode of operation, within these limits, and to last for this long" because they don't necessarily have the design experience or knowhow that say, BREL had in the 1970s when designing the BT10, or Bombardier when designing the B5000.

But to say, produce a replica of this for $xxx a piece is something the Chinese manufacturing industry do very very well.

Just seems to me that picking second hand bogies off 30 year old stock is an odd way of going about things, rather than remanufacturing to an established design. Were Routemasters maintained for so long using exclusively scavanged spares? There are chemical plants in my industry that have been on the ground for 50 or 60 years, but they aren't being powered by the same pumps, or using the same reactors fitted 50 or 60 years ago; they have replacements made to existing specification.

 

[A60K]

I'm surprised that a couple of BT10 bogies can't be sent to China, reverse engineered and replicas produced relatively cheaply. It is what Chinese manufacturers do best. The design patents should long have expired by now.

From indirect experience of the manufacturing industry in China, although certain quality issues need to be controlled, the Chinese are very good at following instructions to produce to a tight and well-defined specification.

But to say, produce a replica of this for $xxx a piece is something the Chinese manufacturing industry do very very well.

I agree - LU did a similar thing to replace the C Stock cars damaged in the 2005 bombings, although it was Hungary in this case. I believe they sent a undamaged car and got two basically new, apart from the underframe, cars built which are just about indistinguishable from the originals.

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised that a couple of BT10 bogies can't be sent to China, reverse engineered and replicas produced relatively cheaply. It is what Chinese manufacturers do best. The design patents should long have expired by now

Makes sense to me.

Since we've got a few spare freight locos knocking about, and any spare (useable) passenger stock (DMUs/ EMUs etc) is snapped up by TOCs, I think it'd be a fair bet on anyone importing cheap Chinese coaches that there'd be a market for them in the UK

 

[asylumxl]

Makes sense to me.

Since we've got a few spare freight locos knocking about, and any spare (useable) passenger stock (DMUs/ EMUs etc) is snapped up by TOCs, I think it'd be a fair bet on anyone importing cheap Chinese coaches that there'd be a market for them in the UK

There's a company that already supposedly does that (remember the "Polaris"?). They haven't got much business at the moment to the best of my knowledge.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm surprised that a couple of BT10 bogies can't be sent to China, reverse engineered and replicas produced relatively cheaply. It is what Chinese manufacturers do best. The design patents should long have expired by now.

Are there any complete locos that have expired design patents?

Maybe a "Blue Pullman" or even an APT

 

[RobShipway]

Are there any complete locos that have expired design patents?

Maybe a "Blue Pullman" or even an APT

So are you suggesting sending the APT train that is sitting in the Crewe works to China?

 

[route:oxford]

So are you suggesting sending the APT train that is sitting in the Crewe works to China?

After 25 years sitting outdoors with little maintenance, the poor thing would probably disintegrate if it was moved more than 100 metres.

Ideally there'll still be engineering diagrams somewhere in the archives that could be worked from.

Is this worth putting in a new thread?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Makes sense to me.

Since we've got a few spare freight locos knocking about, and any spare (useable) passenger stock (DMUs/ EMUs etc) is snapped up by TOCs, I think it'd be a fair bet on anyone importing cheap Chinese coaches that there'd be a market for them in the UK

First, I must declare an interest. I'm MD of CSRE Limited, the company that has been busy promoting the Polaris, Pacemaker and Pulsar passenger vehicle products in recent times.

Under the current franchising structure, TOCs are not in a position to snap up any vehicles without agreement by DfT, and that is simply not going to happen in the current economic climate.

There's a company that already supposedly does that (remember the "Polaris"?). They haven't got much business at the moment to the best of my knowledge.

Of course it would be possible to produce replicas of BT10 bogies at an economical price in China. However, we will not be doing this, for two reasons. Firstly, our Chinese partners have no wish at all to copy any other company's designs, whether copyright has expired, or not. Secondly, the world has moved on since the 1970s and as good as the ride quality offered by a BT10 is, it is perfectly possible to place a 21st century bogie under a Mk III coach and provide a ride quality that offers equivalent performance. Modern bogies are much simpler than a BT10 and are therefore lighter and cost less to maintain.

 

[jamesontheroad]

While I can't speak for the railways, China's rapidly growing automotive industry has something of a bad rep for, shall we say, building upon existing Japanese, American or European designs....

http://gemssty.com/2006/10/29/top-10-copycat-cars/

When GM famously acquired a Chinese built copy.... sorry, competitor to their own Chevrolet Matiz, they found it was possible to remove all four doors from both cars, swap them, and they still opened, closed and locked perfectly.

 

[route:oxford]

First, I must declare an interest. I'm MD of CSRE Limited, the company that has been busy promoting the Polaris, Pacemaker and Pulsar passenger vehicle products in recent times.

Under the current franchising structure, TOCs are not in a position to snap up any vehicles without agreement by DfT, and that is simply not going to happen in the current economic climate.

So how much does a "standard" Polaris, Pacemaker and Pulsar Cost?

 

[yorksrob]

First, I must declare an interest. I'm MD of CSRE Limited, the company that has been busy promoting the Polaris, Pacemaker and Pulsar passenger vehicle products in recent times.

Under the current franchising structure, TOCs are not in a position to snap up any vehicles without agreement by DfT, and that is simply not going to happen in the current economic climate.



Of course it would be possible to produce replicas of BT10 bogies at an economical price in China. However, we will not be doing this, for two reasons. Firstly, our Chinese partners have no wish at all to copy any other company's designs, whether copyright has expired, or not. Secondly, the world has moved on since the 1970s and as good as the ride quality offered by a BT10 is, it is perfectly possible to place a 21st century bogie under a Mk III coach and provide a ride quality that offers equivalent performance. Modern bogies are much simpler than a BT10 and are therefore lighter and cost less to maintain.

I have to say I'm sceptical that any TOC's would snap up rolling stock without Government backing (judging by the fact that they usually need it to buy new stock anyway).

However, it's interesting to note that an "off the shelf" modern bogie could potentially work with Mk 3's. This would presumably make the whole proposal a lot cheaper should the Gmnt wish to obtain some carriages without the cost of buying new ones.

 

[tbtc]

Under the current franchising structure, TOCs are not in a position to snap up any vehicles without agreement by DfT, and that is simply not going to happen in the current economic climate

I know that you are right, but I'm deeply frustrated about this - any new DMUs that were built were snapped up (the Porterbrook 170s?), and all useable stock is being used these days (there are hardly any servicable units in storage - albiet a few freight locos are)...

...plus, we keep getting told that longer franchises (And "bigger" franchises, where the demand will be more stable) mean greater risks/ investment, since there will be sufficient time to recoup money spent over the franchise period...

...but the reality is we have TOCs taking no more "risks" than worrying about what colour of vinyl to use on the side of rented trains. I'd love to see someone like Souter break the mould and decide that a long franchise means that they could "buy" some generic DMUs (like 172s, which are compatible with existing units, and not a "stand alone" class like 175s which will get prohibitively expensive to maintain) - even if they set up a lease through a bank so that the true cost is spread over a decade, it'd be a lot lot cheaper than leasing them through the existing ROSCOs

 

[455driver]

I'd love to see someone break the mould and decide that a long franchise means that they could "buy" some generic DMUs (like 172s, which are compatible with existing units, and not a "stand alone" class like 175s which will get prohibitively expensive to maintain) - even if they set up a lease through a bank so that the true cost is spread over a decade, it'd be a lot lot cheaper than leasing them through the existing ROSCOs

A bit like First Group did when they purchased outright 5 complete rakes of HST trailers and 10 power cars.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

So how much does a "standard" Polaris, Pacemaker and Pulsar Cost?

CSRE has been very public about its pricing, unlike all other rolling stock manufacturers. It published prices for the three products that you referred to, in the April issue of Modern Railways. You can see a copy of the ad by clicking here.

I know the word "from" is hugely irritating when used in pricing ads, but it's only there because train operators are likely to want to specify a plethora of options. However, fundamentally the prices published would buy a "ready to run" passenger vehicle, capable of operating on the UK network and compliant with all standards.

 

[tbtc]

A bit like First Group did when they purchased outright 5 complete rakes of HST trailers and 10 power cars.

Exactly. They knew they had a long enough contract that it was worth investing in these trains (as it'd be cheaper in the long run, plus give them more control).

I'm sure First didn't pay it all up front, and smoothed out the costs with their bankers, but they got 100% ownership of a key asset.

What's the point in awarding these longer franchises if there's still no incentive to invest like this?

 

[starrymarkb]

They picked them up when they were lying idle and were cheap. If they didn't reget FGW then they planned to use on TPX/spot hire. Still the SRA hit the roof when they put them into service and made it clear that TOCs were not to pull off similar stunts...

 

[Kingfisher200262]

What's the point in awarding these longer franchises if there's still no incentive to invest like this?

Can I just point out that nobody has awarded one of these longer franchises yet, or even proposed doing so, via a revised franchise spec? If and when they do, I suspect that the TOC owning groups, the ROSCOs and the rolling stock suppliers will all breathe a sigh of relief and will be invigorated to the process of moving the industry forwards.

 

[tbtc]

Can I just point out that nobody has awarded one of these longer franchises yet, or even proposed doing so, via a revised franchise spec?

Arriva Trains Wales were given a fifteen year franchise, which would have been long enough to justify investment in new trains - in fact the average age is now older (due to the hire of the 57 for the WAG service).