Asked to leave station

[Mr Pickle]

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. Today I was on my daily walk with my young son which takes us past our local station. It is an open station with 2 platforms, no ticket gates or other security and was completely deserted. We stood on the platform to watch a couple of passing trains, but were quickly asked to leave by the station manager because we were not essential workers and should not be travelling. (This station is usually unstaffed but I assume the manager was visiting several stations in the area to make checks). I explained that we were not travelling and simply wanted to watch a train (not easy to find entertainment for a young child at the moment). Was the manager justified in asking us to move on given that there was nobody else about and no issue with social distancing? Is it lawful to watch trains on a station platform? Many thanks.

 

[bramling]

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. Today I was on my daily walk with my young son which takes us past our local station. It is an open station with 2 platforms, no ticket gates or other security and was completely deserted. We stood on the platform to watch a couple of passing trains, but were quickly asked to leave by the station manager because we were not essential workers and should not be travelling. (This station is usually unstaffed but I assume the manager was visiting several stations in the area to make checks). I explained that we were not travelling and simply wanted to watch a train (not easy to find entertainment for a young child at the moment). Was the manager justified in asking us to move on given that there was nobody else about and no issue with social distancing? Is it lawful to watch trains on a station platform? Many thanks.

As watching trains on a station doesn’t count as exercise, then probably it was justified under the current guidelines.

Did the response change when you explained you weren’t travelling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As things stand, yes, it was justified - nobody should be on railway premises unless they are staff or they are making an essential journey, because by being there you pose a potential risk to (or from) others who may arrive there.

 

[Mr Pickle]

No the response didn't change when I explained we weren't traveling. I clarified that we would leave if anybody else arrived on the station but that didn't help. I understand rules have to be in place, but it seemed a bit OTT to me.

 

[bramling]

No the response didn't change when I explained we weren't traveling. I clarified that we would leave if anybody else arrived on the station but that didn't help. I understand rules have to be in place, but it seemed a bit OTT to me.

Yes it probably was a bit OTT. Sounds like you were a little unlucky in being there at the moment when staff happened to be present.

However there is an argument to say that if everyone took the same line and spent time on their local empty station then it would no longer be empty. It’s the same rationale that’s resulted in police clearing people out of parks.

 

[Huntergreed]

My personal view is that you were posing little or no risk to anyone by stopping for a couple minutes to watch a couple of trains. However the rules for staff are clear, the only people that can use railway premises are essential workers only and because staff can't discriminate, if they saw you they really had no choice but to ask for you to leave if you didn't fall into the category, as they can't really bend the rules in certain circumstances or the whole point of having the rules falls apart.

Essentially, what you were doing didn't pose a risk, but if they made an exception for you, they could just as easily for everyone else, and then suddenly the whole station is packed again.

 

[Mr Pickle]

All good points, many thanks. Just out of interest, is it lawful to stand on a platform to observe trains in non coronavirus times?

 

[Huntergreed]

All good points, many thanks. Just out of interest, is it lawful to stand on a platform to observe trains in non coronavirus times?

Absolutely, generally enthusiasts are encouraged, with photographers being requested to ask permission from the station staff. If there are barriers, then I'm not so clear on the rules, but I would just buy a cheap ticket and head through, gives me a chance to take a ride somewhere new as well sometimes!

 

[farleigh]

Jobsworth IMO

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

However, it's my understanding that stations are private property, and unless you have appropriate business there, it is wholly discretionary as to whether they allow you to enter (or remain) at that place.

You have no legal rights to be on a station platform, aside from anything you may contractually enter into, such as buying a valid ticket.

I'm no railway expert, but this would apply equally to non-rail private property too.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Jobsworth IMO

No doubt this manager was bored and saw an opportunity

 

[MarkyT]

Srictly speaking, pandemic or not, unless they are travelling, no member of the public has any right to be on railway premises at all for any reason, except when on a public right of way, some of which do run across certain station sites. Even if a station is open for access at all or most times, they are legally private property just like a pub or your front garden if you have one. With usually unchallenged and sometimes encouraged access, especially where successful retail normally pays valuable rental income to owners, stations form part of the increasing 'pseudo-public realm' that is beginning to dominate more and more of our towns and cities. As such, the owner or staff employed by them can insist you leave at any time for no stated reason. You might have some kind of discrimination case if you were (say) black and excluded while someone white behaving in exactly the same way was allowed to stay, but even that would be sketchy unless you had some kind of contract with the owner, such as a railway ticket or other authority that required your presence on the property to undertake a journey or some other activity. Even where a public right of way across such private property applied, permission to 'loiter' en route is not included in that, the definition of which is a subjective issue, rather like the extent of stopping/resting while out on legitimate exercise under lockdown rules.

 

[Ianno87]

Jobsworth IMO

No doubt this manager was bored and saw an opportunity

Jeez.

The manager no doubt has a Health & Safety responsibility discharged to him/her, and his actions are entitely in line with that.

No competent, professional manager would do otherwise, especislly in these times. Especially if they value their job (e.g. a passing driver could easily inform their control about spotters being present on the station, and would be fully correct in doing so)

 

[Mr Pickle]

At least the train driver seemed pleased to see us, fanfare on the horns and a big wave. The manager didn't look impressed

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Jeez.

The manager no doubt has a Health & Safety responsibility discharged to him/her, and his actions are entitely in line with that.

No competent, professional manager would do otherwise, especislly in these times. Especially if they value their job (e.g. a passing driver could easily inform their control about spotters being present on the station, and would be fully correct in doing so)

The OP writes that the station was deserted...

A different story perhaps had it been a busy mainline station

 

[BJames]

Srictly speaking, pandemic or not, unless they are travelling, no member of the public has any right to be on railway premises at all for any reason, except when on a public right of way, some of which do run across certain station sites. Even if a station is open for access at all or most times, they are legally private property just like a pub or your front garden if you have one. With usually unchallenged and sometimes encouraged access, especially where successful retail normally pays valuable rental income to owners, stations form part of the increasing 'pseudo-public realm' that is beginning to dominate more and more of our towns and cities. As such, the owner or staff employed by them can insist you leave at any time for no stated reason. You might have some kind of discrimination case if you were (say) black and excluded while someone white behaving in exactly the same way was allowed to stay, but even that would be sketchy unless you had some kind of contract with the owner, such as a railway ticket or other authority that required your presence on the property to undertake a journey or some other activity. Even where a public right of way across such private property applied, permission to 'loiter' en route is not included in that, the definition of which is a subjective issue, rather like the extent of stopping/resting while out on legitimate exercise under lockdown rules.

My local station is also unbarriered. There have been revenue staff guarding exits on both sides of the railway bridge before (it's a handy cut-through) and have allowed us to pass, smiling and waving us through with no problems whatsoever. This is a London Overground station but as long as a train from London is not unloading its peak load of passengers, I'm certainly not disturbing anyone.

FWIW I still pass through here now on my daily exercise. With an hourly service there certainly are very little people around and the station supervisor has never had anything to say about my presence. Mind you, I'm not standing on the platform, it is simply a cut-through and I'm in and out.

Conversely though there is a sign saying that you must have a valid ticket or oyster card to be on the platform, so if we're going to be specific, I can understand why the station manager said that to the OP - I think the OP was just a bit unfortunate on this occasion.

 

[Ianno87]

The OP writes that the station was deserted...

A different story perhaps had it been a busy mainline station

Deserted until at least one passenger turns up for a train.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The OP could not have been on the station long if the over-zealous manager came over quickly. Easy target

I wonder how the sitation would have changed had there been a small gang of youths instead

 

[farleigh]

Jeez.

The manager no doubt has a Health & Safety responsibility discharged to him/her, and his actions are entitely in line with that.

No competent, professional manager would do otherwise, especislly in these times. Especially if they value their job (e.g. a passing driver could easily inform their control about spotters being present on the station, and would be fully correct in doing so)

Would he really be sacked for allowing an adult and a child to look at a train passing?
That surprises me but I understand his actions better now. Thanks

 

[bramling]

Would he really be sacked for allowing an adult and a child to look at a train passing?
That surprises me but I understand his actions better now. Thanks

No he wouldn’t be sacked. More than likely he was just doing what he thought was the right thing in the circumstances, which was the correct thing even if it may seem a little over-zealous. As things stand it has been decided the railways are for essential journeys only, so it isn’t really unreasonable for that to be enforced.

 

[Bow Fell]

We had an issue at one of our stations with people making part of their daily exercise/outing a visit to the station.

One person had come to browse the selection of books on the community bookshelf.

Another two were tourists to the area wanting to take photographs believe it or not!

Not really necessary in the current climate surely?!

I do have some sympathy with the OP if you were the only people on the station and you were genuinely not doing any harm, but it’s not really a necessary or essential visit is it? As long as the SM was polite in his dealings with you, I don’t see an issue with you being challenged.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I do have some sympathy if you were the only people on the station and you were genuinely not doing any harm, but it’s not really a necessary or essential visit is it?

It was on the OP's daily walk and no doubt his inquisitive young son, bored of being locked indoors wanted a bit of excitement.

But of course, that nasty over-zealous manager doing his job in the name of 'elf n safety spoiled the fun. I wonder what the young boy made of it

 

[Mr Pickle]

A train passed through moments later and we got a wave and a toot from the driver so it wasn't all bad

 

[Huntergreed]

I have a bad feeling that when the dust settles, rail enthusiasts may incur public shame for being on station property when they’re not posing much of a risk to anyone simply because their hobby is seen as “non essential” when in fact surely sooner or later we need to get back to some form of normality.

 

[Bow Fell]

It was on the OP's daily walk and no doubt his inquisitive young son, bored of being locked indoors wanted a bit of excitement.

But of course, that nasty over-zealous manager doing his job in the name of 'elf n safety spoiled the fun. I wonder what the young boy made of it

Do you know what from your first paragraph I genuinely had some sympathy for the OP. And I genuinely do.

Then you go spoil it with the 2nd paragraph, containing absolute garbage, losing any credibilty of the post.

I have a bad feeling that when the dust settles, rail enthusiasts may incur public shame for being on station property when they’re not posing much of a risk to anyone simply because their hobby is seen as “non essential” when in fact surely sooner or later we need to get back to some form of normality.

Do you know what I disagree! I hope that isn’t the case, the railway needs its revenue right now, so a fare-paying enthusiast is fine by me!

I just hope there is some common sense and they comply with any social distancing.

Ideally, as we get back to normality and the return of peak-hour, enthusiasts taking photos on a busy platform at peak times, not entirely sensible, as it’s just a extra person (s) on the station, but then again there will be the same amount of usual people like there is now, who treat the railway as a free ride, with no justification for travelling other than that purpose.

 

[Bikeman78]

I have a bad feeling that when the dust settles, rail enthusiasts may incur public shame for being on station property when they’re not posing much of a risk to anyone simply because their hobby is seen as “non essential” when in fact surely sooner or later we need to get back to some form of normality.

Rail enthusiasts are stuffed for the foreseeable future. Unnecessary travel is a large part of what we do. I'll be surprised if there are many railtours or preserved lines running this year.

 

[bengley]

I'm getting fed up of seeing the 'Essential/Key workers only' line everywhere on the railway at the moment.

The railways are there for people making essential journeys. Not just key workers. If you have to go to work and you aren't a key worker, that is an essential journey. Sure, stopping to watch a train isn't essential but to tell you that you cannot be there because you aren't essential workers is wrong and OTT.

 

[sheff1]

As things stand, yes, it was justified - nobody should be on railway premises unless they are staff or they are making an essential journey, because by being there you pose a potential risk to (or from) others who may arrive there.

This is not true. There are various acceptable reasons why someone who is not staff, nor making an essential journey, can be on railway premises.

In this case, though, my view is that the OP did not meet an acceptable reason criterion, so the action of the manager was justified.

 

[bramling]

I'm getting fed up of seeing the 'Essential/Key workers only' line everywhere on the railway at the moment.

The railways are there for people making essential journeys. Not just key workers. If you have to go to work and you aren't a key worker, that is an essential journey. Sure, stopping to watch a train isn't essential but to tell you that you cannot be there because you aren't essential workers is wrong and OTT.

But ultimately the OP wasn't undertaking an essential journey, nor essential business.

Whilst a blind eye *might* have been turned, the problem is that if things aren't enforced then all of a sudden it won't be an empty station any more. Indeed the local youth may decide it's a suitable place to hang out if they see no enforcement going on.

Perhaps the manager concerned might have done better to say something along the lines of "I'm going to let you stay for 5 minutes, but please no longer than that". However the trouble with that approach is *some* people would then take liberties.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Well, none of us were there at the time so easy to pass judgement from the armchair...