Potential rebuilding of industries in the UK post COVID-19 epidemic.

[yorksrob]

I think that every country in the world has a particular set of values and culture, usually shaped by centuries of history. No two countries have exactly the same, but some will appear similar often due to shared history in some way.
In some countries the values and culture have been shaped by a cataclysmic event (revolutions in France, USA, Russia etc; German defeat) and others by particular episodes in their history (racial tension in South Africa; establishment of Israel etc).
Each country's individual values and culture are interconnected, and it is usually not possible to separate out an individual characteristic and apply it to a different country, without having to transpose other interconnected characteristics as well.
In the UK our values and culture have been shaped by history; we have had no social cataclysmic event in recent times, which has left us as, inter alia, a trading nation with an ingrained class system (modified from earlier years, but still 'them' and 'us') and an individual money making culture. Taking the German economic model to the UK, without bringing the German social and cultural characteristics [which we can't, unless by authoritarian means, because of different histories], just will not work.
This is why I say 'because we're not Germany'.

I expect there are Germans wanting to bring some aspect or another of UK values and/or culture to Germany, who will face exactly the same difficulties, as there will be an interconnected item to get it to work that they definitely do not want!
No country's values and culture are inherently all bad; they are just different. Major changes would only come about by an event destroying the current cultural order , which I would rather not live through. In the meantime we have to adapt what we've got where possible (with all the vested interests) and live with the rest.

A minor example, but nonetheless indicative: How many times have we heard the press clamouring for the Swiss or Japanese to take over the running of our railways, so the trains will run to time? Without the interconnected values and cultures of that country being applied to all interfaces with the railway, they will make very little difference at all.

I do think that your explanation relies too much on national exceptionalism.

The examples quoted by yourself illustrate my point. On the surface of it, the Japanese and Swiss railway systems have always looked much more organised than ours - resultant from some national characteristic perhaps ? When you look closer, it turns out to be the case that the Swiss and the japanese have relied on their railway networks more than us, and so have invested more to keep them running like clockwork. I once saw a documentary on the Japanese network on how they kept their busiest junction in Tokyo running without a hitch. It turned out that they had an engineer posted in the area to monitor the points more or less permanently. We, on the other hand have traditionally regarded the railway network as a bit of an added extra to personal motoring, hence we wouldn't want to pay to have someone looking at Borough Market Junction all the time. I'm not saying that the Japanese are right in this and we are wrong - just that it is a matter of policy, not culture.

I believe that most of our wrong decisions can be put down to bad ideology - not national character traits. The destruction of the manufacturing base is no different.

 

[deltic]

Is that actually true? If each country manufactured its own stuff, carbon emissions would drop massively.

That said, that could be achieved another way - return to using sail as a method of propulsion.

On the first point yes - on the second depends on the energy mix in the country producing the goods, the need for raw materials and where they have to come from and how goods are moved.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have seen it written in a few places that Britain’s biggest problem is it won the Second World War!

 

[cactustwirly]

Isn't that what I said ?

You were implying that most cars in the UK would be those built in the UK, and only a small number of European imports.

 

[deltic]

I do think that your explanation relies too much on national exceptionalism.

The examples quoted by yourself illustrate my point. On the surface of it, the Japanese and Swiss railway systems have always looked much more organised than ours - resultant from some national characteristic perhaps ? When you look closer, it turns out to be the case that the Swiss and the japanese have relied on their railway networks more than us, and so have invested more to keep them running like clockwork. I once saw a documentary on the Japanese network on how they kept their busiest junction in Tokyo running without a hitch. It turned out that they had an engineer posted in the area to monitor the points more or less permanently. We, on the other hand have traditionally regarded the railway network as a bit of an added extra to personal motoring, hence we wouldn't want to pay to have someone looking at Borough Market Junction all the time. I'm not saying that the Japanese are right in this and we are wrong - just that it is a matter of policy, not culture.

I believe that most of our wrong decisions can be put down to bad ideology - not national character traits. The destruction of the manufacturing base is no different.

I would say that is a cultural issue - punctuality and reliability is very important in Japan and that feeds though to the railways less so in the UK. If you say a meeting starts at 10am - in Japan people will arrive early and the meeting will start at 10am. In the UK you say a meeting will start at 10, that's when people will arrive for and people will still be rolling in at 10 minutes past.

 

[RT4038]

I do think that your explanation relies too much on national exceptionalism.

The examples quoted by yourself illustrate my point. On the surface of it, the Japanese and Swiss railway systems have always looked much more organised than ours - resultant from some national characteristic perhaps ? When you look closer, it turns out to be the case that the Swiss and the japanese have relied on their railway networks more than us, and so have invested more to keep them running like clockwork. I once saw a documentary on the Japanese network on how they kept their busiest junction in Tokyo running without a hitch. It turned out that they had an engineer posted in the area to monitor the points more or less permanently. We, on the other hand have traditionally regarded the railway network as a bit of an added extra to personal motoring, hence we wouldn't want to pay to have someone looking at Borough Market Junction all the time. I'm not saying that the Japanese are right in this and we are wrong - just that it is a matter of policy, not culture.

I believe that most of our wrong decisions can be put down to bad ideology - not national character traits. The destruction of the manufacturing base is no different.

And the ideology, or adoption of it, is embodied in our national character traits.
It is not so much that we have traditionally regarded the railway network as a bit of an added extra to personal motoring (it has only been an added extra since personal motoring has been available to the masses), but that the railways have not been an decent economic proposition since road motors have come along, so the engineer in your case would be seen as an unnecessary expense.
Freedom has long been part of our values and culture - this includes freedom from the tyranny of public transport timetables, and being held to ransom by owners/management/staff. In some cultures this would not be a problem, but I must admit that I don't trust ourselves bearing in mind my life experiences so far. We have a long culture of ruthless exploitation of monopolies, maximising profits, minimum services [and I'm not just talking transport]

 

[yorksrob]

You were implying that most cars in the UK would be those built in the UK, and only a small number of European imports.

You would expect a lot to be - not all by any means. Just as you would expect a lot of Renaults in France and a lot of Fiats in Italy.

I would say that is a cultural issue - punctuality and reliability is very important in Japan and that feeds though to the railways less so in the UK. If you say a meeting starts at 10am - in Japan people will arrive early and the meeting will start at 10am. In the UK you say a meeting will start at 10, that's when people will arrive for and people will still be rolling in at 10 minutes past.

Maybe to an extent. I don't think that that would have been the main factor in Japan building its industrial base though.

And the ideology, or adoption of it, is embodied in our national character traits.
It is not so much that we have traditionally regarded the railway network as a bit of an added extra to personal motoring (it has only been an added extra since personal motoring has been available to the masses), but that the railways have not been an decent economic proposition since road motors have come along, so the engineer in your case would be seen as an unnecessary expense.
Freedom has long been part of our values and culture - this includes freedom from the tyranny of public transport timetables, and being held to ransom by owners/management/staff. In some cultures this would not be a problem, but I must admit that I don't trust ourselves bearing in mind my life experiences so far. We have a long culture of ruthless exploitation of monopolies, maximising profits, minimum services [and I'm not just talking transport]

I think there are people who would like to think that laissez-faire ideology is part of our national character trait. However, look back into history and you have Peterloo, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Fabians, Quakers etc. The latest brand of laissez-faire only dates from the late 1970's.

 

[RT4038]

I would say that is a cultural issue - punctuality and reliability is very important in Japan and that feeds though to the railways less so in the UK. If you say a meeting starts at 10am - in Japan people will arrive early and the meeting will start at 10am. In the UK you say a meeting will start at 10, that's when people will arrive for and people will still be rolling in at 10 minutes past.

Quite. Our cultural punctuality is 'there or thereabouts'. Bus leaves the terminus 3 minutes late (because the driver is chatting) and we'll drive a bit faster to make up the time. Any excuse (preferably some rule or another) to deviate from the plan and create an 'exception'. Unheard of in Japan or Switzerland.
Six green buses for the green route and six red buses for the red route. In Japan or Switzerland that is exactly what would happen. Here, there would be 1 bus of each would swap routes in the afternoon (because we can save a few quid) and two other buses on the wrong colour route because of some 'operating difficulties' (buses parked in wrong order/driver late for duty/training problem etc etc) in the depot.
I'm not criticising, it is just our way, and its mostly because we try to do everything as cheaply as possible, and we don't like being too regimented.

 

[RT4038]

I think there are people who would like to think that laissez-faire ideology is part of our national character trait. However, look back into history and you have Peterloo, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Fabians, Quakers etc. The latest brand of laissez-faire only dates from the late 1970's.

What point are you trying to make with Peterloo, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Fabians, Quakers etc.?

 

[yorksrob]

What point are you trying to make with Peterloo, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Fabians, Quakers etc.?

That laissez-faire market ideology is no more part of our cultural make up than any other. There have always been strands of thought in our culture that have opposed it.

 

[RT4038]

That laissez-faire market ideology is no more part of our cultural make up than any other. There have always been strands of thought in our culture that have opposed it.

Yes, but none of them have got very far. Strands maybe, as no doubt there are in every culture. Aside from wartime, when it was considered a major assault on our normal freedoms, command and control has not been a feature of our economy, even the Corn Laws. Therefore I would think that laissez-faire market ideology, in varying extent, is part of our cultural make-up.

 

[yorksrob]

The UK has a lot of Ford's and Vauxhall's, since they are perceived to be British.
But recently, as a result of cheap dealer finance, a lot of people are now driving ridiculous SUV things or driving premium brands such as BMWs, Mercedes, Audi and Volvo.

I must admit, cars aren't really my thing. My parents Vauxhall Chevette was wonderfully reliable when I was growing up.

Yes, but none of them have got very far. Strands maybe, as no doubt there are in every culture. Aside from wartime, when it was considered a major assault on our normal freedoms, command and control has not been a feature of our economy, even the Corn Laws. Therefore I would think that laissez-faire market ideology, in varying extent, is part of our cultural make-up.

Arguably, a lot of them had an influence on the political left in this country, which resulted in the long post war consensus. I think that this feeds into a very real belief in things such as universal healthcare, works for public health, public transport etc.

 

[RT4038]

I must admit, cars aren't really my thing. My parents Vauxhall Chevette was wonderfully reliable when I was growing up.



Arguably, a lot of them had an influence on the political left in this country, which resulted in the long post war consensus. I think that this feeds into a very real belief in things such as universal healthcare, works for public health, public transport etc.

What long post war consensus would this be? There is a very real belief in universal healthcare, but not for public transport....

 

[yorksrob]

What long post war consensus would this be? There is a very real belief in universal healthcare, but not for public transport....

The broad consensus of the political parties around the welfare state/mixed economy etc that lasted up until the late 1970's.

I think that there is a belief in public transport. Not to the extent of some European countries, but there is a general consensus that we need it. Just look at the furore around the Serpell report !

 

[RT4038]

The broad consensus of the political parties around the welfare state/mixed economy etc that lasted up until the late 1970's.

I think that there is a belief in public transport. Not to the extent of some European countries, but there is a general consensus that we need it. Just look at the furore around the Serpell report !

While we were recovering from WW2 there was a very broad consensus, but this was of necessity rather than desire (In 1953 state intervention in transport started to be rolled back). When it all started going wrong in the 70s the divergence was quite marked.

Yes, there is a consensus that we need public transport, just not how much or its coverage. Just below the surface there is not much consensus on how it should be provided either!

 

[Yew]

You may well be right, but changing that is not going to happen (at least in the short to medium term), because we are not Germans and not in Germany. So, the effect of manufacturing quantity stuff in the UK would be a return to 1970s prosperity. Before the Covid-19 crisis our productivity was one of the worst in Europe.....

That feels like cyclic reasoning...

 

[ruaival]

No, we don't do it now because we go for whatever is cheapest, and to hell with the wider economy, or indeed the security of supply.

All of which assumes a customer with money to spend ... safeguarding or creating some of them is perhaps the critical step on a road to recovery ?
( I visualise the Nottingham Castle bailey market in Robin Hood's time as the laws of business )

 

[yorksrob]

All of which assumes a customer with money to spend ... safeguarding or creating some of them is perhaps the critical step on a road to recovery ?
( I visualise the Nottingham Castle bailey market in Robin Hood's time as the laws of business )

This is true - which is what the gmt's attempting to do with the furlough scheme etc.

 

[underbank]

All of which assumes a customer with money to spend ... safeguarding or creating some of them is perhaps the critical step on a road to recovery ?
( I visualise the Nottingham Castle bailey market in Robin Hood's time as the laws of business )

But a huge proportion of the population havn't seen a fall in income. Pensioners, people furloughed on full pay, public sector workers who weren't furloughed, and all the people who've continued working. They've still got money in their pockets - probably more as they've been unable to buy and do things during lockdown, i.e. no discretionary spending on meals out, holidays, day trips, clothes shopping, etc. There's a lot of suppressed demand in the economy. Many of those on furlough at 80% won't be much (if any) worse off because they'll have saved money on not commuting, saved on buying lunches from shops/cafes, saved on work clothes, etc. I think it's a pretty small minority who'll have suffered a catastrophic loss of income, such as those made redundant, those who have fallen between the gaps of the state support, etc.

 

[yorksrob]

But a huge proportion of the population havn't seen a fall in income. Pensioners, people furloughed on full pay, public sector workers who weren't furloughed, and all the people who've continued working. They've still got money in their pockets - probably more as they've been unable to buy and do things during lockdown, i.e. no discretionary spending on meals out, holidays, day trips, clothes shopping, etc. There's a lot of suppressed demand in the economy. Many of those on furlough at 80% won't be much (if any) worse off because they'll have saved money on not commuting, saved on buying lunches from shops/cafes, saved on work clothes, etc. I think it's a pretty small minority who'll have suffered a catastrophic loss of income, such as those made redundant, those who have fallen between the gaps of the state support, etc.

Indeed. Part of the solution will finding ways of encouraging those people to spend that money in the British economy once rules are relaxed again (and perhaps discouraging expensive imports which drain money away from the economy).

 

[MDB1images]

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[scotrail158713]

Outdoor markets re-open from the 01st Jun along with car show rooms coupled with a start of young children(couple of age groups)going in School.
From 15th June large stores/shops to re-open, bit by bit things are easing at long last.

In England. They need to make that clearer - no change for me, or anyone else, up here.

 

[nedchester]

Outdoor markets re-open from the 01st Jun along with car show rooms coupled with a start of young children(couple of age groups)going in School.
From 15th June large stores/shops to re-open, bit by bit things are easing at long last.

If all the shops are going to open on 15th June the railways are going to have to stop their over the top measures to impose social distancing.

 

[MDB1images]

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[Jayden99]

In England. They need to make that clearer - no change for me, or anyone else, up here.

I've not really been keeping up with Big Nicky's plans for back home, but from speaking to family Scotland seems to be running about 2 weeks behind England, moving to where England is on Friday I think. Makes sense as Scotland was trending behind the South East by about 2 weeks last I checked. Few more weeks and you'll be outside:P