Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[father_jack]

That isn't the Rule Book instruction at all.

Indeed.

 

[68000]

A cutting just before the overbridge?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Isn't the power car in the trees near the digger?

Yes, too many pictures and screenshots to portray easily, sorry

 

[Down Mitcham]

Looks like the South end power Car is totally destroyed down the embankment In the shade of the picture next to the carriage also down the embankment

 

[35B]

Not the first time I've heard the robustness of the MK3s mentioned. Looking at the photo of the three MK3s straddling the tracks, with one either inverted or crushed down to the window line, is it possible that they were arranged like this following some initial recovery work?

No - but it does give a grim insight into just what forces would have been involved to see those carriages flung around like that.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A cutting just before the overbridge?

I was thinking this, if it's hit a landslip, it must have done so before the bridge

 

[Domh245]

ASLEF guy on BBC Radio Scotland talking about a black box, is that the same thing as the OTMR, what type of stuff does that record? is it just a standard thing to prove that there was nothing wrong with the train and or driver performance ?

I would think it is a reference to OTMR, but calling it a 'black box' is going to be far more understandable to the public. It is standard fitment and records all manner of train 'parameters' such as speed but also the position of the controls. The train involved will have also been fitted with forward facing CCTV.

 

[Ergomy]

I can't comprehend the scale of damage, for a train supposedly running at reduced speed.

Another line of comment on the BBC is apparently from ORR who are saying the increasing risks of severe weather, and its consequences, are outstripping Network Rail's capability to protect the network from such events.

I believe the ORR has previously said that the number of landslips and the such have increased massively - there have been a few that have shut lines for months in recent memory so I can imagine they would be quite urgent on this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't comprehend the scale of damage, for a train supposedly running at reduced speed.

If a train is stopped immediately the amount of kinetic energy to disperse is massive.

For instance, the Cannon St crash was at only 10mph but I believe obliterated an entire coach. Yes, they were Mk1s, but that's still a lot of energy.

 

[najaB]

I was thinking this, if it's hit a landslip, it must have done so before the bridge

We aren't sure that it hit a landslip. What we do know is that a landslip near Carmont blocked the line, so it was reportedly heading back to Aberdeen having crossed over to the correct line.

Edit: Has anyone managed to determine exactly where this happened - I'm presuming at Northern end of the viaduct over the Cowie Water?

Nevermind - it wasn't as close to Stonehaven as I thought it was.

 

[thejuggler]

I’ve been staying west of Perth for a few nights and I can honestly say I have only experienced the weather we had last night in the Far East.

It started thundering about 9pm with some rain. By 10pm it was biblical and it was still going at 5am. Continual lightning and thunder with torrential rain.

 

[Journeyman]

ASLEF guy on BBC Radio Scotland talking about a black box, is that the same thing as the OTMR, what type of stuff does that record? is it just a standard thing to prove that there was nothing wrong with the train and or driver performance ?

Yes, black box = OTMR. It monitors speed plus all of the drivers' interactions with the controls.

 

[Swanny200]

I would think it is a reference to OTMR, but calling it a 'black box' is going to be far more understandable to the public. It is standard fitment and records all manner of train 'parameters' such as speed but also the position of the controls. The train involved will have also been fitted with forward facing CCTV.

When you say forward facing CCTV if the front power car is recording, does it still record what the rear is seeing too or is that one disabled similar to when control is locked out in the rear cab by the driver's key in the driving cab

 

[skawtish]

I don't think it hit a landslip. It looks like possibly the tracks was undermined.
Of course i'm just speculating and am no expert.

 

[Chris B]

I was thinking this, if it's hit a landslip, it must have done so before the bridge

'Hitting' landslip would possibly be also the land slipping from under/to the side of the rails leaving PC & leading coach to go sideways down the resultant slip, following the earth - not the earth slipping from above down to the track....from the photos, it looks like the former.

Edit: to say 'snap' to the poster above mine!

 

[sharpley]

I would think it is a reference to OTMR, but calling it a 'black box' is going to be far more understandable to the public. It is standard fitment and records all manner of train 'parameters' such as speed but also the position of the controls. The train involved will have also been fitted with forward facing CCTV.

Hopefully this OTMR survived the fire in the front power car. Just looked them up on Wikipedia...

Crash protection requirements:

• Fire resistance of 700 °C for 5 minutes
• Impact shock of 100 g, three times on each of its six sides
• Static crush of 20 kN for 1 minute, to all edges and faces
• Fluid immersion in water, AFFF or R134A for 1 hour
• Magnetic field produced by a current pulse of 0 to 64 kA, rising at 107 A/s, at a distance of 1 metre

Train event recorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[6Gman]

Not the time for this from TSSA really.

I was a TSSA member throughout my railway career.

Their behaviour these days disgusts me.

 

[Realfish]

RAIB has sent a team of HMIs to the scene:

https://twitter.com/raibgovuk/status/1293519748014247937

A day that no-one would ever want to happen but as with all human endeavours there is always the risk that this day will arrive. Thoughts with those bereaved, inured and also with the wider railway family who work tirelessly day in, day out to keep us all safe. They too will be hurting.

No doubt RAIB will be assisted in their investigation by black box data, but is it also the case that all IC125 sets carry forward facing, in cab CCTV?

Edit: Answered in #428 as I was typing.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Shocked and deeply saddened to hear such horrible news. Slightly surprised I hadn't heard about this any sooner. Incidents of this severity aren't that common on our railways, thank goodness, but it's heartbreaking when they do occur. Thoughts and wishes to those and the families of those involved. Must've been incredibly distressing for the twelve individuals onboard at the time.

 

[Swanny200]

Does the back car not have OTMR too and would that then not duplicate as a failsafe should something like this occur?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Pictures clearly show it was right line

Im deliberately not talking about this incident, I’m mean in general terms.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If a train is stopped immediately the amount of kinetic energy to disperse is massive.

For instance, the Cannon St crash was at only 10mph but I believe obliterated an entire coach. Yes, they were Mk1s, but that's still a lot of energy.

Point of order, some of the vehicles were Mark 1 (suburban) coaches but some were older Bulleid-derived vehicles built on even older underframes and minus much of the bulkhead strength that even Mk1s had. IIRC the oldest component on one of the vehicles was a brake cylinder dating from 1898.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Wrong. View attachment 82149

SLW....a standard wrong direction movement is different.

 

[WestRiding]

SLW....a standard wrong direction movement is different.

Which is what i have said. 50mph only relates to SLW. No defined speed for wrong direction movement in general.

 

[Journeyman]

I was a TSSA member throughout my railway career.

Their behaviour these days disgusts me.

I know what you mean. I was a member back in the 90s, when they had a good reputation for being moderate and sensible, and were a natural choice for those of us who found the RMT too much to stomach.

Likewise, I wouldn't be a member now.

 

[skawtish]

would be interested to know what work network rail where doing in the area.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Regarding the communication, I’ve just been talking to a friend. Apparently there’s a radio system called GSMR which sends out emergency calls.

However, even if the driver is incapacitated, after a few minutes, if the driver doesn’t press down a pedal (deadman’s pedal so to speak), it triggers the alarm automatically, think he said DSD Alarm or something like that.

So unless the GSMR equipment got damaged immediately when the incident happened or there was no mobile signal an alarm call would have automatically been sent within minutes.

 

[squizzler]

The journalists aren’t rail experts and are under pressure to get the reports out. Yes accuracy is important but given the fast moving nature of the incident they will get details wrong. Probably the first time they’ve had to consider the formation of a train.

Whilst a bit of leeway is understandable, I think it reasonable to expect news organisations to present accurate version of events to the public, and at the time this was reported the type of train was perhaps one of the few things that was apparent, and thus the one thing that could be relied upon to be correct. Whilst the story is one of tragedy, I feel readers would have been better served with a potted description of the train such as:

"The HST was originally introduced in 1976 for high speed service on non electrified routes. One of the most distinctive train classes on the network, and widely recognised as a British design icon, its perennial popularity with passengers is one of the reasons it was selected for Scotrail's '7Cities' express service. Despite its age, the HST is considered a fundamentally sound design and has been extensively rebuilt prior to its most recent deployment."

 

[Journeyman]

I'm guessing it's been a very long time since both driver and guard were killed in an accident.

 

[OmniCity999]

Regarding the communication, I’ve just been talking to a friend. Apparently there’s a radio system called GSMR which sends out emergency calls.

However, even if the driver is incapacitated, after a few minutes, if the driver doesn’t press down a pedal (deadman’s pedal so to speak), it triggers the alarm automatically, think he said DSD Alarm or something like that.

So unless the GSMR equipment got damaged immediately when the incident happened or there was no mobile signal an alarm call would have automatically been sent within minutes.

Previously been mentioned that the GSMR signal might have been out of range on this part of track.