Transport for Wales 769's

[Energy]

Without wanting to go over old ground (all 769 threads are full of "why is this still happening?") TfW needed rolling stock to allow 150s to go for PRM work and to bridge the gap between the Jan 2020 accessibility deadline and new stock arriving. 153s were seen as uneconomical to convert due to the loss of seats when adding an accessible loo whilst keeping Pacers was seen as politically untenable. Portabrook were offering cheap 'new' DMUs obviously at a reasonable price and within the deadline - were TfW naive to go for them? Perhaps but given the alternative was probably more expensive in loco hauled services then I don't blame them.

Lots seem to forget that TfW (I think it was ATW at the time) didn't have the hindsight when these were ordered that they would be 2 years late otherwise it would probably be a different decision. Anyway they are at TfW short term and that is probably not going to change. At least they are now getting delivered.

 

[Bob Price]

Looks like they are all here. Now they need to get them working and introduced.

 

[Cardiff123]

I'm sorry to say this but I'm wondering whether the Class 769 programme should have happened considering it was meant to be 2 years ago when the first 769 enters service.

I know the Class 769 deliveries / training are starting to presumably progress nicely but really the 153's should have stayed and the 9 769's go to GWR instead. It would have meant Pacers would have hung around but at least capacity would have still been there / a Pacer coupled to a compliant 150 to provide services with accessible toilet.

I assume the 769s will be staying with TfW Rail Services until the Stadler Tri-mode Flirts are in operation on the Rhymney line. That most likely won't be until late 2023 at the earliest. So the 769s will have at least 2.5 years in service with TfW if they start entering passenger service by the end of this year.

TfW Rail Services (Keolis Amey) inherited the 769 order when they took over from ATW in October 2018. The original order was placed in summer 2017 with a joint deal for the order between ATW and Welsh Govt.

Plus its not exactly practical or politically acceptable to keep Pacers in service for another 3+ years is it? If it wasn't for Covid, Pacers in south Wales would most likely be all but gone by now. I'm sure if the 769s are a massive success Northern or GWR will take the 9 from TfW in 2024.

 

[Anonymous10]

I honestly hope the 769s might be retained to ensure tfw have spare rolling stock for on valley services and they should be cleared for other services out of Cardiff to strengthen the routes or maybe they could be kept and leased to other companies from tfw

 

[Energy]

I honestly hope the 769s might be retained to ensure tfw have spare rolling stock for on valley services and they should be cleared for other services out of Cardiff to strengthen the routes or maybe they could be kept and leased to other companies from tfw

Doubt it, aren't they getting replaced by 756s which are very nice trains.

 

[anthony263]

Pity tfw could keep some of the 769s for their proposed Swansea to Bristol Tm service if they eventually get t
Permission to operate it

 

[Caaardiff]

The 769 car lengths are roughly the same size as 150s so shouldn't be an issue.... Eventually these would be well placed on Ebbw Vale & Maesteg routes, replacing the 170s to go elsewhere and providing a much needed capacity boost on those lines.
I guess it all depends on delivery schedules for the new fleet. Given the work thats gone in to them and the late delivery it would be good to see them stay longer to provide options for expansion. Some of the new fleet is due in 2022 so not that long to wait!

 

[Brissle Girl]

They’ll only be kept if there is a business case for doing so, else, like any other rolling stock, they will be returned to the lessor.

“wouldn’t it be nice...” =£££ so whoever is paying won’t care a jot if they have only recently started work. If they’re not needed and they can be handed back without penalty then they will be.

 

[Cardiff123]

The 769s won't be able to be kept on for use on the Valley lines north of Queen St once the CVL upgrade is complete for two main reasons:

1) The CVL north of Queen St must provide level boarding at every station, the 769s won't provide that.
2) Diesel operation of passenger trains will be banned north of Queen St once the CVL upgrades are complete. The 769s don't have batteries and so won't be able to operate under the discontinuous electrification north of Queen St

 

[AM9]

The 769s won't be able to be kept on for use on the Valley lines north of Queen St once the CVL upgrade is complete for two main reasons:

1) The CVL north of Queen St must provide level boarding at every station, the 769s won't provide that.
2) Diesel operation of passenger trains will be banned north of Queen St once the CVL upgrades are complete. The 769s don't have batteries and so won't be able to operate under the discontinuous electrification north of Queen St

Is that anywhere north of Queen St? Is there a restriction outside the Cardiff built-up area?

 

[Cardiff123]

Is that anywhere north of Queen St? Is there a restriction outside the Cardiff built-up area?

Everywhere north of Queen St. All part of the franchise agreement between TfW and Keolis Amey.

 

[AM9]

Everywhere north of Queen St. All part of the franchise agreement between TfW and Keolis Amey.

OK thanks. So more a contractual issue than an infrastructure limitation.

 

[Bob Price]

This week's test/training paths seem to be back to the stop at each station model. I wonder if this is driver training actually starting? Would expect 008 to be accepted soon if that is the case.

 

[anthony263]

I don't think 769002 will be far behind 008 . Both units will be welcomed to free up pacers or xlass 150s for other services. Im looking forward to travelling on one of them

 

[Senna1210]

it was 769002 running today

 

[Bob Price]

Afternoon run was cancelled. Was planning to nip out and see it pass

 

[PHILIPE]

Afternoon run was cancelled. Was planning to nip out and see it pass

You will probably find in practice that the path was not required to be taken up rather than cancelled.

 

[Bob Price]

On test today at Heath High Level. 008 turned at Bargoed with a few gremlins. Spoke to the driver and he told me they are willing them into service. Don't think the 153's are going down well.

 

[Bob Price]

And a video to go with it

 

[wirygiant]

And a video to go with it

It definetly has a distinctive sound to it

 

[Bletchleyite]

It definetly has a distinctive sound to it

The classic DC traction motor sound with the almost violin-like background hum is one of my favourite railway sounds. It just sounds really restful for some reason.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss TfW 769s please

The forum has plenty of spare capacity for new threads (if there isn't one already) to discuss anything else!

(I have removed some off topic posts)

 

[Cardiff123]

If TfW Rail are so desperate get the 769s into service, does anyone on the 'inside' know why the second afternoon paths have not been used this week?
I would've thought every opportunity would be taken to get as many hours of testing and training in as possible.

 

[Senna1210]

If TfW Rail are so desperate get the 769s into service, does anyone on the 'inside' know why the second afternoon paths have not been used this week?
I would've thought every opportunity would be taken to get as many hours of testing and training in as possible.

yes tweeking the units

 

[Bob Price]

I am guessing it's crew availability. The morning runs are cancelled today

 

[Rhydgaled]

OK thanks. So more a contractual issue than an infrastructure limitation.

It's both really. Contractually diesel will be forbidden on TfW services on the core valley lines and the infrastructure limitiation is that the electrification won't be continuous so the 769s cannot just run in electric mode with the diesel switched off. I still don't understand why TfW are planning to ditch the bi-mode 769s and bring in diesel-only class 231s though. 769s on Maesteg-Cheltenham would in theory be able to use electric mode between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction whereas 231s would be diesel under the wires.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's both really. Contractually diesel will be forbidden on TfW services on the core valley lines and the infrastructure limitiation is that the electrification won't be continuous so the 769s cannot just run in electric mode with the diesel switched off. I still don't understand why TfW are planning to ditch the bi-mode 769s and bring in diesel-only class 231s though. 769s on Maesteg-Cheltenham would in theory be able to use electric mode between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction whereas 231s would be diesel under the wires.

It's both really. Contractually diesel will be forbidden on TfW services on the core valley lines and the infrastructure limitiation is that the electrification won't be continuous so the 769s cannot just run in electric mode with the diesel switched off. I still don't understand why TfW are planning to ditch the bi-mode 769s and bring in diesel-only class 231s though. 769s on Maesteg-Cheltenham would in theory be able to use electric mode between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction whereas 231s would be diesel under the wires.

Whatever mode and over whatever route are not the deciding factors where 769s will run. They would be overkill using 4 carriages for most of the day on Maesteg to Cheltenhams. Keeping them on the Rhymney to Penarth means that only a limited number of traincrew would have to train on them rather than the need for widespread training.

 

[AM9]

It's both really. Contractually diesel will be forbidden on TfW services on the core valley lines and the infrastructure limitiation is that the electrification won't be continuous so the 769s cannot just run in electric mode with the diesel switched off. I still don't understand why TfW are planning to ditch the bi-mode 769s and bring in diesel-only class 231s though. 769s on Maesteg-Cheltenham would in theory be able to use electric mode between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction whereas 231s would be diesel under the wires.

At least it looks like TfW havent made the same mistake that Northern did with the 331s, by acquiring a train that would be creating diesel pollution until it is scrapped in 30+ years. The 231s will, I presume be convertable to Bimode, BEMU or even straight EMUs without replacing mechanical parts of the transmission.

 

[MML]

At least it looks like TfW havent made the same mistake that Northern did with the 331s, by acquiring a train that would be creating diesel pollution until it is scrapped in 30+ years. The 231s will, I presume be convertable to Bimode, BEMU or even straight EMUs without replacing mechanical parts of the transmission.

331s are EMUs.

 

[topydre]

At least it looks like TfW havent made the same mistake that Northern did with the 331s, by acquiring a train that would be creating diesel pollution until it is scrapped in 30+ years. The 231s will, I presume be convertable to Bimode, BEMU or even straight EMUs without replacing mechanical parts of the transmission.

See the thread CAF Civity DMU for TfW....