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Should on-board catering facilities be outsourced?

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RT4038

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If I was CEO of a TOC, I would outsource my catering duties to a retailer like Costa or Starbucks. Use the airport model of selling the retail space and then be tasked with ensuring there are enough people on the train from which to sell.

I suspect because none of these companies are interested. Too different from their 'core' business model, and too expensive to provide, meaning profits uncertain. The airport model just does not translate easily to inside a moving train, running at set times and too easily disrupted.
1. A separate commissary has to be provided at each base, because suppliers cannot practically deliver to the moving train. This is more expensive because the commissary will require a separate staff member, rather than using baristas.
2. The staff will be more expensive (as most will be on full days, less attractive to students/part timers etc) and spare coverage required (if someone is late / fails, you can't phone around for someone to cover for a few hours and open half an hour late!). Fewer people (in the core demographic) wishing to travel 200 miles from home every day?
3. TOCs want trolley service (so the former buffet area can be converted to revenue earning seats, as the catering company will not be able to pay rent to cover this), but this is not conducive to your brand or for the layout of your wares.
4. When the train is full the trolley often can't get down the train, or passengers are reluctant to walk to a buffet car for fear of losing seat/confrontation with standees. So sales potential small (when it should be large!)
5. Dead time trains with little custom.
6. Some kind of staff control function required to deal with service disruption and instructions for staff.
7. All the usual issues with lone working.

On the surface you would think that all these captive passengers on long distance trains would be an ideal customer base. But the logistics, and the costs, of actually serving them is another matter.
 

dk1

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If I was CEO of a TOC, I would outsource my catering duties to a retailer like Costa or Starbucks. Use the airport model of selling the retail space and then be tasked with ensuring there are enough people on the train from which to sell.
I think that model has failed many times in the past across Europe. Stansted Express had a Costa bar for a while. Again it didn't work.
 

mark-h

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I suspect because none of these companies are interested. Too different from their 'core' business model, and too expensive to provide, meaning profits uncertain. The airport model just does not translate easily to inside a moving train, running at set times and too easily disrupted.
A lot of Starbucks, Costa etc. cafes are franchise operations, not directly run by the brand. Starbucks in UK stations and airports tend to be run by SSP (owner of RG [formally Rail Gourmet]).

It would be possible to licence a brand for onboard catering, either as a fully branded operation or as a suplyer of some products. This service would still be operated by the train company or their caterer.

The offering will still be limited by the facilities avaliable, particularly when a trolly is the only option. The brand owners would want to ensure that their brand is not tarnished by a poor onboard implemtation.
 

AndyW33

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It would be possible to licence a brand for onboard catering, either as a fully branded operation or as a suplyer of some products. This service would still be operated by the train company or their caterer.

The offering will still be limited by the facilities avaliable, particularly when a trolly is the only option. The brand owners would want to ensure that their brand is not tarnished by a poor onboard implemtation.
This is often what airlines do, at least as far as the hot drinks are concerned. Indeed there's another crossover - because water boils at lower temperature at altitude (though thanks to pressurised cabins, the altitude is that the cabin is pressurised to, not the one the plane is flying at), special blends are sometimes used to maintain flavour across the brand, and might also be necessary with the not-boiling water used on train catering trolleys
 

Purple Orange

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I rather doubt the likes of Costa would be interested.

I wouldn’t rule it out. There is nothing to suggest that an outsourced provider may not be interested in on-board catering. It could be Sodexo or Compass. The whole customer facing side of the rail industry is based on outsourcing, so we could say anything is up for grabs in that context. If a TOC is focussed on selling space on it’s trains, there is nothing to say that an outsourced provider can’t turn it’s share of that space in to a profitable operation if it has an average captive market of 250 people on half a dozen trains every hour.
 

HamworthyGoods

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SBB has tried various outsourcing of buffet/restaurant cars over the years with little success
 

philosopher

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I wouldn’t rule it out. There is nothing to suggest that an outsourced provider may not be interested in on-board catering. It could be Sodexo or Compass. The whole customer facing side of the rail industry is based on outsourcing, so we could say anything is up for grabs in that context. If a TOC is focussed on selling space on it’s trains, there is nothing to say that an outsourced provider can’t turn it’s share of that space in to a profitable operation if it has an average captive market of 250 people on half a dozen trains every hour.

Have vending machines ever been tried on UK trains? A vending machine, which could include a branded coffee machine, similar to the Costa coffee machines you see in a lot of supermarkets would take up very little room, be always available and could easily be outsourced.
 

Fyldeboy

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Having worked for 9+ years at various levels in on-train catering, this strikes me as a very suitable compromise in Standard Class. There would be problems to surmount (re-stocking, maintenance, security etc)
Have vending machines ever been tried on UK trains? A vending machine, which could include a branded coffee machine, similar to the Costa coffee machines you see in a lot of supermarkets would take up very little room, be always available and could easily be outsourced.
Of course, as ex-on-train-crew, I'd be horrified at job losses - but I suspect anti-catering TOCs and Covid has already put that into context.
 

Journeyman

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SBB has tried various outsourcing of buffet/restaurant cars over the years with little success

They had some McDonalds ones for a while!

Have vending machines ever been tried on UK trains? A vending machine, which could include a branded coffee machine, similar to the Costa coffee machines you see in a lot of supermarkets would take up very little room, be always available and could easily be outsourced.

Yes, the idea dates right back to the 1950s, being trialled in a Mark 1 corridor coach with one compartment fitted with machines for snacks, drinks and (given the time) cigarettes. It didn't last long, so presumably wasn't considered a success.
 

cakefiend

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I wouldn’t rule it out. There is nothing to suggest that an outsourced provider may not be interested in on-board catering. It could be Sodexo or Compass. The whole customer facing side of the rail industry is based on outsourcing, so we could say anything is up for grabs in that context. If a TOC is focussed on selling space on it’s trains, there is nothing to say that an outsourced provider can’t turn it’s share of that space in to a profitable operation if it has an average captive market of 250 people on half a dozen trains every hour.
Having worked for both an outsourced onboard catering firm and then in-house doing the same thing, there's good reason no business worth its salt gets involved. In-house catering is always a loss leader, but the provision of extra staff on board is generally considered worthwhile, and the complimentary first class offer is a great driver of ticket sales.

TOCs are pretty strict on what they permit when it comes to outsourced caterers, and produce rather detailed SLAs (with penalties for poor compliance) for the provider to meet. These usually include obligations to cover all trains on a certain route, or between certain times. Thus, the provider is immediately landed with covering services where the wage bill will exceed sales (trust me, it's pretty common).

Given that they get fined for not having a trolley on a train, they need enough staff to cover it - relying on overtime may be too risky, depending on the terms of the SLA. But who wants to work for an outsourced catering firm onboard long distance trains for 12 hour shifts at c.£10 an hour. Turns out, not that many people - believe it or not. This in turn leads to the issue of having some candidates who, how shall I say, would not meet the criteria were the role to be recruited in-house. Those who excel quickly move on, often becoming guards or going in-house with another TOC.

Then there's the management, which is pretty hands-off. When I worked at an outsourced firm, there was just one manager, with a number of shift leaders below them who acted as cashier, line manager and controller - all at once. They were exceptionally hard-working types who were the epitome of the phrase 'overworked and underpaid'.

Unlike any other form of hospitality, customers are not on the train with the primary aim of getting something to eat or drink. Footfall =/= sales. Your train has to be just busy enough that people want to buy something, but not too busy that the trolley can't get through. Conversely, you could be so popular that you don't manage to serve everyone. This generates complaints, and is flagged up to the outsourced firm by the contract manager.

The simple fact is, the TOC can 'sell' the space all it wants, but the firm investing has to be sure they can recoup their investment. If you do things right, you won't.
 
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Andy Pacer

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Having worked for both an outsourced onboard catering firm and then in-house doing the same thing, there's good reason no business worth its gets involved. In-house catering is always a loss leader, but the provision of extra staff on board is generally considered worthwhile, and the complimentary first class offer is a great driver of ticket sales.

TOCs are pretty strict on what they permit when it comes to outsourced caterers, and produce rather detailed SLAs (with penalties for poor compliance) for the provider to meet. These usually include obligations to cover all trains on a certain route, or between certain times. Thus, the provider is immediately landed with covering services where the wage bill will exceed sales (trust me, it's pretty common).

Given that they get fined for not having a trolley on a train, they need enough staff to cover it - relying on overtime may be too risky, depending on the terms of the SLA. But who wants to work for an outsourced catering firm onboard long distance trains for 12 hour shifts at c.£10 an hour. Turns out, not that many people - believe it or not. This in turn leads to the issue of having some candidates who, how shall I say, would not meet the criteria were the role to be recruited in-house. Those who excel often quickly move on, often becoming guards or going in-house with another TOC.

Then there's the management, which is pretty hands-off. When I worked at an outsourced firm, there was just one manager, with a number of shift leaders below them who acted as cashier, line manager and controller - all at once. They were exceptionally hard-working times who were the epitome of overworked and underpaid.

Unlike any other form of hospitality, customers are not on the train with the primary aim of getting something to eat or drink. Footfall =/= sales. Your train has to be just busy enough that people want to buy something, but not too busy that the trolley can't get through. Conversely, you could be so popular that you don't manage to serve everyone. This generates complaints, and is flagged up to the outsourced firm by the contract manager.

The simple fact is, the TOC can 'sell' the space all it wants, but the firm investing has to be sure they can recoup their investment. If you do things right, you won't.
Interesting points and a couple I'd never considered. Especially the 'preferred amount of passengers' ratio. Presumably it's also an issue if you're so busy you run out of popular stock too.
 

charley_17/7

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Having worked for both an outsourced onboard catering firm and then in-house doing the same thing, there's good reason no business worth its gets involved. In-house catering is always a loss leader, but the provision of extra staff on board is generally considered worthwhile, and the complimentary first class offer is a great driver of ticket sales.

TOCs are pretty strict on what they permit when it comes to outsourced caterers, and produce rather detailed SLAs (with penalties for poor compliance) for the provider to meet. These usually include obligations to cover all trains on a certain route, or between certain times. Thus, the provider is immediately landed with covering services where the wage bill will exceed sales (trust me, it's pretty common).

Given that they get fined for not having a trolley on a train, they need enough staff to cover it - relying on overtime may be too risky, depending on the terms of the SLA. But who wants to work for an outsourced catering firm onboard long distance trains for 12 hour shifts at c.£10 an hour. Turns out, not that many people - believe it or not. This in turn leads to the issue of having some candidates who, how shall I say, would not meet the criteria were the role to be recruited in-house. Those who excel often quickly move on, often becoming guards or going in-house with another TOC.

Then there's the management, which is pretty hands-off. When I worked at an outsourced firm, there was just one manager, with a number of shift leaders below them who acted as cashier, line manager and controller - all at once. They were exceptionally hard-working times who were the epitome of overworked and underpaid.

Unlike any other form of hospitality, customers are not on the train with the primary aim of getting something to eat or drink. Footfall =/= sales. Your train has to be just busy enough that people want to buy something, but not too busy that the trolley can't get through. Conversely, you could be so popular that you don't manage to serve everyone. This generates complaints, and is flagged up to the outsourced firm by the contract manager.

The simple fact is, the TOC can 'sell' the space all it wants, but the firm investing has to be sure they can recoup their investment. If you do things right, you won't.

Absolutely spot on. When I worked for a TOC (as a guard), RG and TOC management always wanted to know why sales on my trains always seemed to be significantly more than others, as though they didn't want it to happen!

Problem is, we see it as a profit making venture, rather than what is should be, providing basic human needs of food and drink on long distance journeys. We place too much value on reducing cost and maximising profit, and not on making the product better/wider range/attractive compared to station/off-railway sales. Compare our offer with DB's bistro, or OBB railjet, for example. Its like chalk and cheese.
 

cakefiend

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Interesting points and a couple I'd never considered. Especially the 'preferred amount of passengers' ratio. Presumably it's also an issue if you're so busy you run out of popular stock too.
Absolutely, sometimes worse than providing no service at all.
 

RT4038

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Absolutely spot on. When I worked for a TOC (as a guard), RG and TOC management always wanted to know why sales on my trains always seemed to be significantly more than others, as though they didn't want it to happen!

Problem is, we see it as a profit making venture, rather than what is should be, providing basic human needs of food and drink on long distance journeys. We place too much value on reducing cost and maximising profit, and not on making the product better/wider range/attractive compared to station/off-railway sales. Compare our offer with DB's bistro, or OBB railjet, for example. Its like chalk and cheese.

Or, in other words, charge the passengers who don't want food and drink, higher fares [or more Government subsidy] to subsidise the catering operation for those who do?
 

jon0844

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Having worked for both an outsourced onboard catering firm and then in-house doing the same thing, there's good reason no business worth its salt gets involved. In-house catering is always a loss leader, but the provision of extra staff on board is generally considered worthwhile, and the complimentary first class offer is a great driver of ticket sales.

TOCs are pretty strict on what they permit when it comes to outsourced caterers, and produce rather detailed SLAs (with penalties for poor compliance) for the provider to meet. These usually include obligations to cover all trains on a certain route, or between certain times. Thus, the provider is immediately landed with covering services where the wage bill will exceed sales (trust me, it's pretty common).

Given that they get fined for not having a trolley on a train, they need enough staff to cover it - relying on overtime may be too risky, depending on the terms of the SLA. But who wants to work for an outsourced catering firm onboard long distance trains for 12 hour shifts at c.£10 an hour. Turns out, not that many people - believe it or not. This in turn leads to the issue of having some candidates who, how shall I say, would not meet the criteria were the role to be recruited in-house. Those who excel quickly move on, often becoming guards or going in-house with another TOC.

Then there's the management, which is pretty hands-off. When I worked at an outsourced firm, there was just one manager, with a number of shift leaders below them who acted as cashier, line manager and controller - all at once. They were exceptionally hard-working types who were the epitome of the phrase 'overworked and underpaid'.

Unlike any other form of hospitality, customers are not on the train with the primary aim of getting something to eat or drink. Footfall =/= sales. Your train has to be just busy enough that people want to buy something, but not too busy that the trolley can't get through. Conversely, you could be so popular that you don't manage to serve everyone. This generates complaints, and is flagged up to the outsourced firm by the contract manager.

The simple fact is, the TOC can 'sell' the space all it wants, but the firm investing has to be sure they can recoup their investment. If you do things right, you won't.

Another possible benefit of having vending machines? In theory (subject to being adapted to do so) the trolley could restock from a vending machine, with the machine more easily refilled (it transmits details of what it needs automatically, and there's no need to 'cash up' etc) at stations along the route, or at the terminus. Or, at least by having it there the passenger can use it directly.

Again, it means people have the option of using a vending machine but would more likely use the trolley if running for convenience. That vending machine offers the additional reassurance and confidence to wait and spend money onboard. I think that, cost aside (but station shops are rarely cheap), I'd always prefer to buy a coffee on the train at my convenience than have to buy it and other snacks in advance and carry it with bags to my seat/to find a seat.
 

broadgage

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Or, in other words, charge the passengers who don't want food and drink, higher fares [or more Government subsidy] to subsidise the catering operation for those who do?
Within reason, yes. Just as passengers without luggage are in effect charged higher fares in order to provide luggage racks for those with luggage. And those who don't need to relieve themselves are charged for the provision of toilets. And everyone pays for the provision of heating and sometimes for air conditioning, even those who consider this needless.
And we all pay higher fares to allow for children paying half fares, for a whole seat.
Providing luggage space, toilets, and catering is part of running long distance trains. How much profit is made by luggage racks ?
 

RT4038

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Within reason, yes. Just as passengers without luggage are in effect charged higher fares in order to provide luggage racks for those with luggage. And those who don't need to relieve themselves are charged for the provision of toilets. And everyone pays for the provision of heating and sometimes for air conditioning, even those who consider this needless.
And we all pay higher fares to allow for children paying half fares, for a whole seat.
Providing luggage space, toilets, and catering is part of running long distance trains. How much profit is made by luggage racks ?

I think you are going a little over the top - catering may or may not be part of running long distance trains, but this should be paying for itself or being subsidised to a minimum offering of hot drinks and sandwiches. There is no need for a subsidised restaurant car or full meal offering - travel first class for this.
And yes, if luggage is being taken in such quantities that a special vehicle is required for its conveyance, then it should be charged for. But this is getting off topic.
 
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cakefiend

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Another possible benefit of having vending machines? In theory (subject to being adapted to do so) the trolley could restock from a vending machine, with the machine more easily refilled (it transmits details of what it needs automatically, and there's no need to 'cash up' etc) at stations along the route, or at the terminus. Or, at least by having it there the passenger can use it directly.

Again, it means people have the option of using a vending machine but would more likely use the trolley if running for convenience. That vending machine offers the additional reassurance and confidence to wait and spend money onboard. I think that, cost aside (but station shops are rarely cheap), I'd always prefer to buy a coffee on the train at my convenience than have to buy it and other snacks in advance and carry it with bags to my seat/to find a seat.
There's a lot of interesting points here, I'll try to address them one by one.

Hot drink dispensers are a minefield, quite frankly. Not only do you have to ensure that they're well stocked, but they also need frequent cleaning - and not just for hygiene reasons. Those things clog up. Often. Not only that, but pouring boiling water at speed is very dangerous. That's why TOCs were slow to accept reusable cups until they were certain they were safe, and why many will only serve seated passengers from a trolley. For those that still have a bar, you'll be forced to put your drink in a bag to prevent it spilling on someone. I'll add that pretty much all catering staff have to be trained specifically in how to pour a hot drink safely. Given the amount of people I've seen insist they don't need a lid and/or bag, I'm going to say they're a non-starter.

That said, you're right to say that many people would rather wait for a trolley, but I know fine well that plenty will go to the bar in order to be served quicker or benefit from a wider range of stock (often hot food or chilled drinks). The important point here is that some people can't, for whatever reason. I presume one way around this would be to place a machine in the accessible seating area, but that doesn't seem an acceptable compromise if you need to travel in that area.

While it's well known that people want the option of being able to buy something to eat or drink on the train, I suspect TOCs value the additional visible member of staff providing customer service on the train over the catering service. I can't see how a mending machine would offer an improved customer experience. They are pretty fiddly to use in my experience, let alone on a moving train - I don't imagine restocking one on the move would be much fun either. (I'd also be concerned as to what would happen if one tipped over. You'd need a machine or a restraint designed specifically for the type of train it's being used on).

Then there's the security aspect. I feel that something like a vending machine is more likely to be a target for vandalism, given that it's unattended and potentially filled with money. A large glass pane on the front will, sadly, be too inviting to some.

When it comes to public and trade union relations, I think vending machines would be a disaster. It would be perceived as a demonstration that train companies value money over passengers and customer service. If the train didn't have catering before, the machine would likely replace seats. If the train did have catering before, it would be replacing staff. There would be no winning the argument.

For what it's worth, I'm very much inclined to believe that a trolley service (at the very least) provides better return on investment for any TOC than an automatic vending machine.
 
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