Low Speed Derailment Sheffield 11/11

[Amlag]

The key bit (for prosperity) being

You can be fairly sure in the current unjoined up railway that the NR Media Centre is manned by Contractor's people not directly employed by NR, and their knowledge could well be lacking on specifics.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Why can’t P6 be used? Seems perfectly accessible and allows you to have a down and an up train boarding at the same time.

I don't think that Platform 6 has a northbound main aspect for passenger departures.

 

[Crossover]

But this isn't an instantaneous process. They can't get a phone call at say 9am asking for their buses as replacement transport and have their drivers unfurloughed and back in work by 10.

Getting staff back in can, I believe, be an instaneous process. The furlough claims go in after the fact so it is only the HMRC reporting at the end of the period that changes. Whether it is practical to phone a staff member to get them in within the hour is quite another matter entirely, but furlough in of itself isn't an excuse

 

[Sunset route]

That’s correct no northbound main aspect signal on platform 6

 

[Ianno87]

You can be fairly sure in the current unjoined up railway that the NR Media Centre is manned by Contractor's people not directly employed by NR, and their knowledge could well be lacking on specifics.

Or they are simply just putting it in plain, non-technical terms.

 

[Crossover]

Or they are simply just putting it in plain, non-technical terms.

Given that they refer to carriages and cars within some 3 words of each other, I'd wager more on the side of confused media teams

 

[stuartl]

Given that they refer to carriages and cars within some 3 words of each other, I'd wager more on the side of confused media teams

Or just someone working from home, maybe not doing their normal job because of covid, and made a mistake. As we all do from time to time, except for some people on the Internet of course.

 

[greyman42]

66603 6E91 34 Loaded PCA'S reports of at least 1 wagon on its side with lots of infrastructure damage.

All Crosscountry services terminating at Derby and Leeds.

Were the Leeds terminators doing quick turn arounds and heading back to the north? I cannot imagine Leeds having the capacity for them to be stood at the platform for any length of time.

 

[_toommm_]

Signalling limitations I believe.

It’s 0E08 but can’t see what’s on it at the moment.

I don't think that Platform 6 has a northbound main aspect for passenger departures.

That’s correct no northbound main aspect signal on platform 6

Ah forgot about that one.

In which case northbound on P8 and southbound on P6 should be possible.

Also, another Class 6 leaving, presumably returning some more wagons, this time back to Hope:

Realtime Trains - 630D 1800 Sheffield to Hope (Earles Sidings) Fhh

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[SilentGrade]

You can be fairly sure in the current unjoined up railway that the NR Media Centre is manned by Contractor's people not directly employed by NR, and their knowledge could well be lacking on specifics.

You can be fairly sure that you’re completely wrong

 

[Andyh82]

Were the Leeds terminators doing quick turn arounds and heading back to the north? I cannot imagine Leeds having the capacity for them to be stood at the platform for any length of time.

That status of them terminating at Leeds only applied first thing, they started running through again after a few hours

 

[mcmad]

Looks like there is the dreaded bullhead track there--could this be a factor?

The issue with bullhead track being?

 

[43096]

The key bit (for prosperity) being

Or even for posterity?

 

[Bob figgis]

The track on the two through roads between 1 and 2 has always looked pretty poor to be honest, especially the one closer to Platform 2.

From this YouTube video, it ran through the through road and not P1

It is even clearer on the local BBC news report. Skip forward to 16:06 into the programme

BBC One - Look North (Yorkshire), Evening News, 11/11/2020

The latest news, sport and weather for Yorkshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[_toommm_]

From this YouTube video, it ran through the through road and not P1

It is even clearer on the local BBC news report. Skip forward to 16:06 into the programme

BBC One - Look North (Yorkshire), Evening News, 11/11/2020

The latest news, sport and weather for Yorkshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

I know, in my post I said the through roads between p1 and p2. There’s some more through roads between p5 and p6 hence why I made reference to p1 and p2.

 

[Bob figgis]

I know, in my post I said the through roads between p1 and p2. There’s some more through roads between p5 and p6 hence why I made reference to p1 and p2.

Yes it used the through roads between p1 and p2. They do look very ropey and in need of TLC. I quoted your post as you had made mention of their poor state. Looks like you hit the nail on the head. My local not being shown to its full glory.

 

[_toommm_]

Yes it used the through roads between p1 and p2. They do look very ropey and in need of TLC. I quoted your post as you had made mention of their poor state. Looks like you hit the nail on the head. My local not being shown to its full glory.

Ahh fair enough. Yeah it’s been like that for a good while now, but you’d think they’d up the quality a bit as one end of the TR is used by regular passenger trains every hour with the other used fairly regularly by freights

 

[WestRiding]

I don't think that Platform 6 has a northbound main aspect for passenger departures.

Correct. Nor does platform 8. It shows Red all the time and can only clear as a sub going north. We call it a 'wall side movement'. Permission has to be sought for passenger trains to leave north from 6 or 8 because of Ground Position Light on 6 or Sub on platform 8s S139.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think that Platform 6 has a northbound main aspect for passenger departures.

That’s correct no northbound main aspect signal on platform 6

But can head north to south from Meadowhall towards Dore / Chesterfield via Platform 6.

When was Sheffield PSB closed and its work moved to York ROC? In the last year or so. Cross Country avoided Sheffield then I'm sure.

Correct. Nor does platform 8. It shows Red all the time and can only clear as a sub going north. We call it a 'wall side movement'. Permission has to be sought for passenger trains to leave north from 6 or 8 because of Ground Position Light on 6 or Sub on platform 8s S139.

Extremely surprised they didn't resignal it to full aspects when moved to York ROC.

 

[Philip]

Isn't the line through Beighton and Treeton a slow crawl? I guess CC don't want to use it because of the effect on journey times.

 

[Crossover]

Or even for posterity?

Yes, that one

 

[dk1]

When was Sheffield PSB closed and its work moved to York ROC? In the last year or so. Cross Country avoided Sheffield then I'm sure.

Any route knowledge may well have expired by now I suppose. Cant use route conductors either.

Not sure how I managed to merge that

 

[tbtc]

To be fair to Cross Country on the route knowledge point, in recent years I have been most impressed at their ability to keep services on the move around Whitacre, Castle Donington, the Erewash Valley, Beighton, Woodburn, Thyburgh, Barnsley and Hare Park as needed during engineering work, flooding, failures and so forth.

Beighton-Masborough is by far the least useful diversion because it obviously means completely missing out Sheffield. As such it cannot be done by 'route retainer' passenger services at the fringes of the day.

I can't say that I ever remember being diverted via the full length of the 'Old Road' in BR's day (although I did go that way on an excursion from the West Midlands to Scarborough once).

This is worth repeating.

Whilst the incident is obviously regrettable (and has had big impacts upon services in the region), I think that some things are a lot more complicated than a number of posts on here have suggested - it's really not as straightforward as rounding up dozens of Rail Replacement coaches at short notice or getting a critical mass of XC staff regularly trained to cover every possible diversionary route (the fact that the Old Road was used a few years ago doesn't mean that the route knowledge would be up to date, and running one train a day that avoids the city of Sheffield would only keep a small minority of XC staff up to date with their route knowledge).

There's no easy solutions for Sheffield - it's a congested station with "sub-optimal" throats (e.g. there's a single lead to the two bay platforms at the northern end, the painful slow approach speeds to a number of platfoms) - the situation with the signals (that means you can't use the two through platforms on the eastern island for northbound services) seems rather unfortunate... but that's how things are, we have to deal with the realities of that in the short term.

It's funny how "resilience" gets trotted our as a justification for building some long scenic line through the middle of nowhere (just in case it can be a diversionary route a couple of weekends a year) but there's no urgency/enthusiasm for something comparatively modest like permitting a through platform to be bi-directional.

But this is the mess of Sheffield Midland - it struggles to cope with the (pre Covid) service patterns - there's no scope to expand a station built directly above a flood prone river (hemmed in by the ring road to the west and steep hill to the east) - it's been so busy that a number of London services had to run up to Woodburn just to dump them out of the way - yet this station where through platforms are at a premium is where we hope to squeeze long HS2 trains.

For all the talk about re-opening the Bakewell line to accommodate Peak District freight, there's no other route for a Hope - Dewsbury service - and no simple solutions for Midland - my understanding is that the buildings on the two "islands" have some listing, so you can't tear it down and start again, however tempting!

 

[WestRiding]

But can head north to south from Meadowhall towards Dore / Chesterfield via Platform 6.

When was Sheffield PSB closed and its work moved to York ROC? In the last year or so. Cross Country avoided Sheffield then I'm sure.



Extremely surprised they didn't resignal it to full aspects when moved to York ROC.

Yeah south through 6 definitely under main aspects. Everything at York is exactly as it was at Sheffield PSB. It was just a re-control, not re-signalling. We shut in May 2016.

 

[PG]

This is worth repeating.
[SNIP]
There's no easy solutions for Sheffield - it's a congested station with "sub-optimal" throats...[SNIP]

But this is the mess of Sheffield Midland - it struggles to cope with the (pre Covid) service patterns - there's no scope to expand a station built directly above a flood prone river (hemmed in by the ring road to the west and steep hill to the east) - it's been so busy that a number of London services had to run up to Woodburn just to dump them out of the way - yet this station where through platforms are at a premium is where we hope to squeeze long HS2 trains.

Most informative, thanks.

Ideally forward for the attention of those deciding on the HS2 route North of Birmingham!

 

[ALEMASTER]

Travel South Yorkshire have warned of bus diversions due to the road in front of Sheffield station being partially closed for a crane to be set up to recover the derailed wagons tomorrow (Thursday).

National Rail Enquiries service updates page suggesting train service disruption will continue until Friday.

NRES also suggesting another platform may be made usable overnight tonight to the benefit of EMR.

Looks like probably same service tomorrow as today:
EMR Sheffield-London: one an hour running as normal with the other train per hour starting at Derby.
EMR Liverpool-Norwich: normal
TPE Manchester-Cleethorpes: normal with delays, SLW through north end of Sheffield station
XC North East-South West: normal with delays, SLW through north end of Sheffield station
NORTHERN Leeds-Barnsley-Nottingham: normal with delays, SLW through north end of Sheffield station
NORTHERN Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield (locals): terminating Meadowhall, Supertram accepting tickets Meadowhall-Sheffield
NORTHERN Huddersfield-Barnsley-Sheffield: terminating Barnsley
NORTHERN Leeds-Rotherham-Sheffield (locals): terminating Meadowhall, Supertram accepting tickets Rotherham Central/Meadowhall-Sheffield.
NORTHERN Doncaster-Rotherham-Sheffield (locals): Replacement bus all stations Doncaster-Meadowhall, Supertram accepting tickets Rotherham Central/Meadowhall-Sheffield.
NORTHERN York-Pontefract-Sheffield: suspended, alternative routes/services available.
NORTHERN Scarborough-Hull-Doncaster-Sheffield: terminating Doncaster, alternative services available.
NORTHERN Lincoln-Retford-Worksop-Sheffield: replaced by buses
NORTHERN Sheffield-Manchester: operating normally

Most informative, thanks.

Ideally forward for the attention of those deciding on the HS2 route North of Birmingham!

the plan apparently with the HS2 line not actually going into Sheffield was for some HS2 services to divert onto the classic line Clay Cross-Chesterfield-Dronfield-Sheffield and local services kicked out of Sheffield station to make room for them, with the local services replaced by tram trains.

 

[Killingworth]

For all the talk about re-opening the Bakewell line to accommodate Peak District freight, there's no other route for a Hope - Dewsbury service - and no simple solutions for Midland - my understanding is that the buildings on the two "islands" have some listing, so you can't tear it down and start again, however tempting!

This incident should remind us how vulnerable the railway is to incidents at critical points. Places like this need solutions before we start throwing cash at reopening long closed lines. Like at Castlefield the restricted geography dictates very expensive options. Like in Manchester some very extensive civil engineering is the only way to bring relief. River below, road to one side, tram and hill to the other - and a mockingly close railway heading across at too acute an angle to make a connection towards Penistone. Some sort of tunnelled tracks below Park Hill may be needed.

However, returning to today's incident it's strange that during the day time cement trains roll through Platform 1 in a shower of dust when there are lots of passengers waiting. I've wondered why they didn't use the central roads, but thought it might be due to the apparently poor standard of the track at the north end. Maybe that had a bearing today, but why use that route at night? Possibly passenger trains stabled in Platform 1 for the night?

 

[WestRiding]

This incident should remind us how vulnerable the railway is to incidents at critical points. Places like this need solutions before we start throwing cash at reopening long closed lines. Like at Castlefield the restricted geography dictates very expensive options. Like in Manchester some very extensive civil engineering is the only way to bring relief. River below, road to one side, tram and hill to the other - and a mockingly close railway heading across at too acute an angle to make a connection towards Penistone. Some sort of tunnelled tracks below Park Hill may be needed.

However, returning to today's incident it's strange that during the day time cement trains roll through Platform 1 in a shower of dust when there are lots of passengers waiting. I've wondered why they didn't use the central roads, but thought it might be due to the apparently poor standard of the track at the north end. Maybe that had a bearing today, but why use that route at night? Possibly passenger trains stabled in Platform 1 for the night?

Platform 1, is a main running Line.
The Through Line is a main running line, but with an additional signal that leads into the very north end of Platform 1, so is not a true Through Line, and the Signalling Overlaps prevent it from being a more useful route than Platform 1. The next 'through' route, along side the Through Line, is the Down Station Siding, no main apect signals and a very slow 'through' route (though sometimes useful). It is worth nothing that there is no preference for getting a freight through Sheffield. Its more a case of send it where its free. Not many freights, especially North Bound can fit in the station limits, so usually keep going. So, whilst they appear as Through Routes, they are not all main aspect signals. The Down Station Siding (between the through line and platform 2, and Up Station Sidings 1&2, between 5 and 6 are all signalled on GPLs)
There is no Signalling Restrictions based on condition of track. On a night time/early hours a lot of freight uses the sidings because they can be the only through route while shunting is taking place with all the Northern Units.

 

[Taunton]

From this YouTube video, it ran through the through road and not P1

Quite nicely done for a completely amateur video effort.

However, having seen some rapid derailment recovery in the USA, way out in the middle of nowhere, what the video does show is that at what must be 8 hours or more after the incident, there is not one single piece of mechanical recovery equipment yet around, not even for the lesser derailed vehicles or just arrived on a low loader on the road outside. There are several groups seen walking around trackside in immaculate hi-viz, doubtless all saying "Ooooh, nasty" to one another, but of recovery actually in progress, zilch.

And now we read it needs to be done by cranes from the street, and will take days. Has nobody ever seen that tracked lifting gear that USA and elsewhere get to site and get on with it?

Sheffield freight train derailment disruption 'to last for days'

The freight train came off tracks at Sheffield station and a crane will be needed to remove it.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Trainfan2019]

Whilst keeping checking the Sheffield live train map on traksy after the derailment there are some odd codes showing at the platforms. What does T3, Poss, Unit and Ne2u mean please? Thanks.