How could Manchester Victoria be improved? (And does it need to be?)

[Bletchleyite]

I am, as noted elsewhere, not a fan of Victoria at all, for many reasons. How could it be improved?

A few suggestions to start with of varying scale:

• If the Arena were to close, flattening it all except the listed bits and building a new European style glass-and-steel Hauptbahnhof with maybe 6 or 8 through platforms. This could have a residential/commercial development on top, but would at least be big enough.
• Building some west-facing terminal bay platforms butting up against the west side of the Arena building - the viaducts are still in place and would allow for 3 or 4 decently long platforms to be constructed, giving Manchester some valuable west-facing terminal capacity, though at the expense of a bit of a long walk a la Picc 13/14.
• Moving the Arena access to outside the station (but as near as feasible), this would probably assist their security as well by separating the two, and would allow the removal of the ugly bridge that dominates the station, and would also allow the station footbridge to be rebuilt wider and with better facilities e.g. perhaps escalators to the platforms rather than stairs.
• Removing the hideous advertising hoardings from above the ticket barriers entirely, or replacing them with a large "proper" departure board.
• In the long term looking to ban diesel from the through platforms, with all services either being EMU or bi-mode on the wires, and any steam sent through Castlefield instead. That would allow the filthy concrete ceiling of the through platforms to be shot-blasted clean (or redone) and perhaps turned into a feature (like e.g. the Haagse Tramtunnel), with warm-coloured LED uplighting giving a much less dingy feel. (As an aside, once we manage to get the DMUs out of New St that should be done there as well, at present it's painted black to disguise the muck).
• Perhaps considering putting a Piccadilly or Euston- style deck over the tram platforms or the east-facing bays, providing space for improved waiting facilities, catering and retail, which is woefully inadequate. As an alternative, this could feed into a new wider footbridge and become the main platform access with the ticket barriers moved up there so they aren't quite as prominent, and good escalator and lift access from the ground floor. I'm aware this conflicts with "remove the bridge so it is opened out", of course, but it would at least be a facility primarily benefitting most rail passengers rather than a small number of them as the Arena bridge does.
• Rebuild the toilets from scratch. They are too small, dirty, poorly kept and vandalised. Due to the latter, they also need full-time attendants.

Any more thoughts?

 

[Purple Orange]

Thanks for setting up the thread.

In an ideal world, the whole station would be rebuilt with the exception of the original buildings. If the Arena goes, I’d like to see additional through platforms, but it depends for what purpose. If NPR was to go through Victoria, I could see the need. If NPR goes through Piccadilly, I’d seek to build west facing terminal platforms if the arena stays. In all likelihood I’d expect to see the arena staying and NPR will go via Piccadilly anyway.

If the arena was to go, could there be a case for additional through platforms and how many, if NPR goes through Piccadilly?

And if NPR, went through Victoria, what would be needed to accommodate both NPR trains and sufficient capacity for regional connecting services?

 

[JonathanH]

any steam sent through Castlefield instead

You are among the most vociferous supporters of nothing unusual / off pattern going through the Castlefield corridor. Sending steam trains through and then across the throat of Piccadilly is probably a worse thing than an occasional steam train through Victoria instead. (Quite different from your admirable aim of ridding Victoria of frequent diesel trains.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are among the most vociferous supporters of nothing unusual / off pattern going through the Castlefield corridor. Sending steam trains through and then across the throat of Piccadilly is probably a worse thing than an occasional steam train through Victoria instead. (Quite different from your admirable aim of ridding Victoria of frequent diesel trains.)

I would surely be shot for suggesting steam be banned from Manchester entirely, though I suppose you could restrict it to reversing at Picc mainline platforms (which would mean it banned from a number of routes that couldn't reach them, e.g. from Preston to Manchester it'd have to go via Crewe and reverse). But if you make the Victoria concrete ceilings a feature, you can't have steam covering them in filth, so steam through Vic would then be off the agenda. I suppose you could require anyone running any form of "burny" traction through Vic to pay for a clean afterwards, though carrying one out would not be a small job due to the need to turn the wires off.

 

[JonathanH]

I would surely be shot for suggesting steam be banned from Manchester entirely, though I suppose you could restrict it to reversing at Picc mainline platforms (which would mean it banned from a number of routes that couldn't reach them, e.g. from Preston to Manchester it'd have to go via Crewe and reverse). But if you make the Victoria concrete ceilings a feature, you can't have steam covering them in filth, so steam through Vic would then be off the agenda. I suppose you could require anyone running any form of "burny" traction through Vic to pay for a clean afterwards, though carrying one out would not be a small job due to the need to turn the wires off.

I appreciate it isn't really noticeable but there isn't actually much of a concrete ceiling above the lines through platforms 3 and 4 - just the buildings at the east and west end.

The mass of steel makes people think it is all covered. 5 and 6 is a different matter.

 

[30907]

Depending on future service patterns, I would prioritise:
West bays - there is about 200m available before you have to join existing tracks (I'm assuming you would slew the northernmost through line) so you could fit in 2 or 3 140m (6-car) platforms without new bridgeworks.
Footbridge improvements (one at the West end could double up as access to the new platforms) and maybe a new (legal!) access at that end - I haven't been down there for several years so not sure if that's possible.
Not sure about a mezzanine under the new roof - that's the attractive part of the station!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The mass of steel makes people think it is all covered (although I think this is scaffolding in the old picture above). 5 and 6 is a different matter.

Ah, that being the case the kettles could be restricted to using 3 and 4, though I think I'll add to the list (now my memory on what 3/4 is like has been jogged) removing that structure and replacing it with something nicer because it is quite ugly and accumulates muck as well as not letting light in very well.

 

[Purple Orange]

Depending on future service patterns, I would prioritise:
West bays - there is about 200m available before you have to join existing tracks (I'm assuming you would slew the northernmost through line) so you could fit in 2 or 3 140m (6-car) platforms without new bridgeworks.
Footbridge improvements (one at the West end could double up as access to the new platforms) and maybe a new (legal!) access at that end - I haven't been down there for several years so not sure if that's possible.
Not sure about a mezzanine under the new roof - that's the attractive part of the station!

I've always made the assumption that a couple of bays would be feeling very remote from the main concourse of the station, and if you entered from the main entrance, you would need to walk via P6. However I wonder if my assumption may be wrong in some ways.

Often if I am using Victoria, I have often been approaching the station by walking down Deansgate, then up the hill to the main building or the back of the Cathedral. But an entrance, with various retail and ticket facilities could work. The station would still be awkward, but it could have two useful entrances.

 

[yorksrob]

So essentially, the conclusion of this thread is to re-create Victoria/Exchange as it was pre 1968 !

My suggestion would be to turn the bar area into the Victoria Tap.

 

[Ianno87]

I've always made the assumption that a couple of bays would be feeling very remote from the main concourse of the station, and if you entered from the main entrance, you would need to walk via P6. However I wonder if my assumption may be wrong in some ways.

Often if I am using Victoria, I have often been approaching the station by walking down Deansgate, then up the hill to the main building or the back of the Cathedral. But an entrance, with various retail and ticket facilities could work. The station would still be awkward, but it could have two useful entrances.

The alternative would be to move the entire station slightly to the west, with the present platform area the eastern end throat, decked over like Liverpool Street.

 

[Purple Orange]

The alternative would be to move the entire station slightly to the west, with the present platform area the eastern end throat, decked over like Liverpool Street.

Such a big project would probably need to be accompanied by a commitment to have Victoria as the main Manchester NPR station. Yet there would also be a push for the existing main building to be incorporated too - Metrolink wouldn’t need to move. It would be a station with a huge footprint.

 

[Bungle965]

My suggestion would be to turn the bar area into the Victoria Tap.

There is already a Victoria tap being fitted out opposite the M&S (which remains closed)

 

[yorksrob]

There is already a Victoria tap being fitted out opposite the M&S (which remains closed)

Ooh, now that's exciting news.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I've always made the assumption that a couple of bays would be feeling very remote from the main concourse of the station, and if you entered from the main entrance, you would need to walk via P6. However I wonder if my assumption may be wrong in some ways.

Often if I am using Victoria, I have often been approaching the station by walking down Deansgate, then up the hill to the main building or the back of the Cathedral. But an entrance, with various retail and ticket facilities could work. The station would still be awkward, but it could have two useful entrances.

Yes, a couple of west end bays would be relatively remote but if the west end footbridge aligned with an additional entrance (and was provided with lifts) the majority of users who probably just want to get to Manchester rather than change could be straight out onto the street.
6 car bays would probably need to be at least 160m bearing in mind modern vehicle lengths (23 or 24m - or also to fit a five car cl 802 (26m vehicles) in an out of course situation) plus the requirement for standback from buffers and departure signals
For me west end bays are the most critical current requirement although longer east end bays would also be useful but constraints of the overbridge at one end and the concourse at the other make this perhaps more challenging than provision at the west end.
A decent catering outlet inside the barriers would be a great benefit for passengers who are changing - or waiting for - trains.

 

[Purple Orange]

Yes, a couple of west end bays would be relatively remote but if the west end footbridge aligned with an additional entrance (and was provided with lifts) the majority of users who probably just want to get to Manchester rather than change could be straight out onto the street.
6 car bays would probably need to be at least 160m bearing in mind modern vehicle lengths (23 or 24m - or also to fit a five car cl 802 (26m vehicles) in an out of course situation) plus the requirement for standback from buffers and departure signals
For me west end bays are the most critical current requirement although longer east end bays would also be useful but constraints of the overbridge at one end and the concourse at the other make this perhaps more challenging than provision at the west end.
A decent catering outlet inside the barriers would be a great benefit for passengers who are changing - or waiting for - trains.

Agreed. To be fair it all needs to be tied in with Piccadilly P15 & P16, Salford Central P3-5 and Oxford Road works.

 

[SteveM70]

A proper departures board either on, or clearly visible from, the platform side of the barriers. Anyone changing at Victoria now is limited to a single display on the train-side just showing destinations, plus the individual platform displays showing detail of the next train.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Agreed. To be fair it all needs to be tied in with Piccadilly P15 & P16, Salford Central P3-5 and Oxford Road works.

Agree, but west end bays would give a benefit without the other interventions by freeing up through platforms and reducing congestion which then knocks on to Oxford Road etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A proper departures board either on, or clearly visible from, the platform side of the barriers. Anyone changing at Victoria now is limited to a single display on the train-side just showing destinations, plus the individual platform displays showing detail of the next train.

Or change the layout so passengers would usually, barring looking at platform-level summary displays for a train that's due in a couple of minutes, exit from the paid area between connections, like they do at Piccadilly.

Agreed. To be fair it all needs to be tied in with Piccadilly P15 & P16, Salford Central P3-5 and Oxford Road works.

West-facing bays at Vic could be a cheap way of not building those, to be fair. Not that I don't support them.

 

[faltskog36abba]

There are some very good points here I agree with. West facing bays would be handy for terminating trains-So they are not clogging up the through platforms. A retail outlet would work behind the barriers as that area is dead space[Where the subway was], I actually worked in one there 14 years ago. Build an extension of the roof over 3-6 to the east like the Metrolink Platforms and have the diesels stop there, No emissions under the arena -Just the Bi/Modes/Electrics. I would love to see the empty station building of the Facade turned in to an Hotel or offices[Just do something with it]. Get some heated waiting rooms, It now has a footfall of 17 and half million per annum With Rail/Interchange and Tram. The Modernised part of the station I think looks great, along with the roof- Very bright and airy.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having both east and west facing bays really seems like an admission of defeat. They sterilise potentially valuable city centre land and inevitably reduce rolling stock utilisation. Just think Thameslink and Crossrail.

The 'missing' through journeys are inevitably a disincentive to some through trips. I get that not that many people might individually be going from (say) St Helens Junction to Ashton but every little helps. One is then building in additional foot traffic traipsing along platforms and via bridges or subways between opposite bays and contributing to general congestion.

One of the criticisms of franchising (and indeed BR sub-sectors before) was that some logical linkages were arbitrarily chopped up at places like Peterborough or Exeter. The new idea of a single guiding mind could well see more services being bolted back together.

I must confess that apart from individual elements of its quirky architecture I have always detested Victoria (despite having done my signalling training on the famous L&Y miniature layout there) and would be quite happy to see it swept away in the interests of a clean sheet. Obviously it would be appropriate to save the map and the stained glass, etc. for re-display elsewhere but that should not stand in the way of a modern transport hub.

 

[Purple Orange]

Having both east and west facing bays really seems like an admission of defeat. They sterilise potentially valuable city centre land and inevitably reduce rolling stock utilisation. Just think Thameslink and Crossrail.

The 'missing' through journeys are inevitably a disincentive to some through trips. I get that not that many people might individually be going from (say) St Helens Junction to Ashton but every little helps. One is then building in additional foot traffic traipsing along platforms and via bridges or subways between opposite bays and contributing to general congestion.

One of the criticisms of franchising (and indeed BR sub-sectors before) was that some logical linkages were arbitrarily chopped up at places like Peterborough or Exeter. The new idea of a single guiding mind could well see more services being bolted back together.

I must confess that apart from individual elements of its quirky architecture I have always detested Victoria (despite having done my signalling training on the famous L&Y miniature layout there) and would be quite happy to see it swept away in the interests of a clean sheet. Obviously it would be appropriate to save the map and the stained glass, etc. for re-display elsewhere but that should not stand in the way of a modern transport hub.

The thing is, that sort of investment required to build a completely new transport hub will never be afforded to Victoria. You need to look 1 mile to the south east to see where the real money will be spent.

 

[Geochemwill]

As others have alluded to, a decent, welcoming waiting room and also a decent catering outlet within the “wasted space” inside the ticket line would be a start.

 

[Purple Orange]

As others have alluded to, a decent, welcoming waiting room and also a decent catering outlet within the “wasted space” inside the ticket line would be a start.

Does a large city centre station require a waiting room? I’ve never had the need to use one at Piccadilly or any of the London stations. A strong selection of retail, catering facilities and adequate seating should sort that out. The best place to wait at Victoria, if not the pub, is in the Java coffee shop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having both east and west facing bays really seems like an admission of defeat. They sterilise potentially valuable city centre land and inevitably reduce rolling stock utilisation. Just think Thameslink and Crossrail.

The problem there, though, is that there aren't enough destinations to the east to match to the ones from the west, and those that there are mostly aren't electrified (and aren't going to be) so you can't send EMUs there. And sending everything to Manchester Airport via Castlefield, which is the workaround, really isn't working.

That said I would prefer 2 or 4 more long[1] through platforms (which like Leeds could be used for terminating services if needs be) but there's nowhere to put them short of my preference, namely knocking down the Arena and all the non-listed parts of the station and starting again from scratch to build something more like Leeds, i.e. 6 or 8 very long through platforms over a high glass and steel (NOT plastic) trainshed but no bays at all.

But with reference to Crossrail and Thameslink, that point is fair enough, but this Victoria work would be intended to allow Castlefield to become that "Manchester Crossrail" with only local EMU services with doors at thirds using it but at a very high frequency. You've got to send the IC stuff somewhere, and "Piccadilly main trainshed" isn't the answer (however nice it would be if it was) as it points the wrong way. If we decide that Victoria will become the Manchester Crossrail, then you need to build Picc 15/16 to allow the IC stuff to go that way instead. And maybe we should do that, given the higher popularity of Picc as a destination, but if so we need to do it quick before a tower block goes up on the land it would need.

[1] 400m would be unnecessary, but it would be sensible to make them long enough to take the longest trains that might need to be sent there e.g. on emergency diversion - an 11 car Pendolino which is about 266m. Most of the time that will allow you the flexibility to stack up two 80x, for instance, and indeed allow for any future 10-car 80x operation on TPE.

 

[yorksrob]

Having both east and west facing bays really seems like an admission of defeat. They sterilise potentially valuable city centre land and inevitably reduce rolling stock utilisation. Just think Thameslink and Crossrail.

The 'missing' through journeys are inevitably a disincentive to some through trips. I get that not that many people might individually be going from (say) St Helens Junction to Ashton but every little helps. One is then building in additional foot traffic traipsing along platforms and via bridges or subways between opposite bays and contributing to general congestion.

One of the criticisms of franchising (and indeed BR sub-sectors before) was that some logical linkages were arbitrarily chopped up at places like Peterborough or Exeter. The new idea of a single guiding mind could well see more services being bolted back together.

Funnily enough, I do often make use of Victoria's through journey opportunities, often with a change but not always. It's one of the reasons why I'm sceptical about certain tram conversion proposals, although I invariably get shouted down for voicing my scepticism.

I wouldn't sayit requires the building to be flattenned though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must confess that apart from individual elements of its quirky architecture I have always detested Victoria (despite having done my signalling training on the famous L&Y miniature layout there) and would be quite happy to see it swept away in the interests of a clean sheet. Obviously it would be appropriate to save the map and the stained glass, etc. for re-display elsewhere but that should not stand in the way of a modern transport hub.

Interesting that you say "transport hub" - you could argue that, Hull style, it would be sensible to put a bus station there for terminating services from the North of Manchester, which would give excellent connectivity and allow the Shudehill site (which is no doubt more desirable) to be developed. The city centre is edging that way, so it's not the backwater it was in the 90s when if you didn't work for the Co-op and weren't going to see something at the Arena then you really wanted to go to Oxford Road or Picc instead.

 

[Geochemwill]

Does a large city centre station require a waiting room? I’ve never had the need to use one at Piccadilly or any of the London stations. A strong selection of retail, catering facilities and adequate seating should sort that out. The best place to wait at Victoria, if not the pub, is in the Java coffee shop.

I think it’s helpful to have somewhere warm to wait, without getting in the way of the ticket line. Clearly there are cafes and pubs nearby, but for passengers not requiring refreshment, just to wait, perhaps with luggage, for longer distance services to Edinburgh or Newcastle, a waiting room would be great.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't sayit requires the building to be flattenned though.

The Northern "hourly train from everywhere to everywhere" concept would, if done in full, probably reduce Vic to needing one platform in each direction, because it would become the "Manc-Bahn" I envisage for Castlefield instead. But it's a stupid idea to do it like that (to do it reliably you need to be able to pair all services from one Western branch with only one Eastern branch and keep the unit and crew diagrams wholly self-contained) and it ruins punctuality, and the services, like the Castlefield ones, are poorly balanced each side. And the question would remain what to do with TPE.

Sure, they could bin off the 397s and 68+Mk5 and order more 80x to give an identical fleet, then operate through services like Edinburgh-Manchester-Newcastle, but as a through service that's really quite useless (because you just wouldn't go that way for a through journey even if it was cheaper) and one which would interface with so many things that its punctuality would be appalling unless you had a 20 minute layover at Vic (see: Liverpool-Norwich or LNR Liverpool-Euston services), and if it's going to sit there for 20 minutes who cares if it's doing that mid journey or turning round and going back, the infrastructure need is the same, namely a platform to sit in for 20 minutes.

I think it’s helpful to have somewhere warm to wait, without getting in the way of the ticket line. Clearly there are cafes and pubs nearby, but for passengers not requiring refreshment, just to wait, perhaps with luggage, for longer distance services to Edinburgh or Newcastle, a waiting room would be great.

What would be even better would be a concourse which isn't freezing cold and has things to do and places to sit while waiting, rather than people having to sit in a specific, archaic waiting room. Picc is very good for this, which is one reason I gave it my "best station" accolade on the other thread. The whole concourse is a waiting room (which is one reason I bumped it above Paddington, which has a nice place to wait in the form of "The Lawn" but it's a bit bolted on the side rather than the whole concourse being like that). It's pleasant, airy, warm in winter and cool in summer, like Euston's Great Hall. That's what Victoria needs. As it is, it's too, er, Victorian.

As I see it, the work that was done was a complete waste of money because it spent a packet basically just putting a fancy roof over the trams, which are the bit of the station that are least in need of a fancy roof, because you never have to wait very long for one, and a fancy bridge to the Arena, which serves a fraction of the number of people that use the station each day and really clutters it up. Yet nothing was really done to solve any of the issues that plague using the station as a passenger.

 

[yorksrob]

The Northern "hourly train from everywhere to everywhere" concept would, if done in full, probably reduce Vic to needing one platform in each direction, because it would become the "Manc-Bahn" I envisage for Castlefield instead. But it's a stupid idea to do it like that (to do it reliably you need to be able to pair all services from one Western branch with only one Eastern branch and keep the unit and crew diagrams wholly self-contained) and it ruins punctuality, and the services, like the Castlefield ones, are poorly balanced each side. And the question would remain what to do with TPE.

Sure, they could bin off the 397s and 68+Mk5 and order more 80x to give an identical fleet, then operate through services like Edinburgh-Manchester-Newcastle, but as a through service that's really quite useless (because you just wouldn't go that way for a through journey even if it was cheaper) and one which would interface with so many things that its punctuality would be appalling unless you had a 20 minute layover at Vic (see: Liverpool-Norwich or LNR Liverpool-Euston services), and if it's going to sit there for 20 minutes who cares if it's doing that mid journey or turning round and going back, the infrastructure need is the same, namely a platform to sit in for 20 minutes.



What would be even better would be a concourse which isn't freezing cold and has things to do and places to sit while waiting, rather than people having to sit in a specific, archaic waiting room. Picc is very good for this, which is one reason I gave it my "best station" accolade on the other thread. The whole concourse is a waiting room (which is one reason I bumped it above Paddington, which has a nice place to wait in the form of "The Lawn" but it's a bit bolted on the side rather than the whole concourse being like that). It's pleasant, airy, warm in winter and cool in summer, like Euston's Great Hall. That's what Victoria needs. As it is, it's too, er, Victorian.

As I see it, the work that was done was a complete waste of money because it spent a packet basically just putting a fancy roof over the trams, which are the bit of the station that are least in need of a fancy roof, because you never have to wait very long for one, and a fancy bridge to the Arena, which serves a fraction of the number of people that use the station each day and really clutters it up. Yet nothing was really done to solve any of the issues that plague using the station as a passenger.

Yes, I wish I'd known about the fifteen minute layover there beforehand, when I got the TPE to Liverpool a while ago. I would have bought a cuppa !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, here's an idea:

CGI rendering of Vic from ilovemanchester.com

There's a dirty great surface car park out front, taking up a space which would be perfect to create a Piccadilly style steel-and-glass (NOT plastic) concourse leading to a widened footbridge with escalators and lifts to all the platforms including the trams, with a completely new set of facilities and a separate bridge to the Arena if required, with the "classic" entrance just being for access to trams and as a side access. How about that? Stick the cars underneath it.

Or if someone wants to put a tower block there, make the concourse the ground floor (like the way MKC's concourse is basically the first two floors of an office block). You don't need a glass roof if you have glass walls - Euston is bright and airy enough with an uplit concrete roof. "You can build a tower block if you like, provided you build us a station concourse and car park under it"?