Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Greybeard33]

Thanks for the update. Also I's been a while since I looked at RTT and the additional info shown is very interesting, i.e details of stock used (even down to the actual unit numbers).
On the subject of the advertised service (ALD-SOP), it shows timings for the 319 as a 100mph unit as far as Piccadilly. If they are currently running class 150s, is that route so slow that the lower 75mph maximum speed of the 150s is not an issue for the paths involved? A 769 is reported to be capable of 90+mph under the wires so if asked to do that I imagine that it is viable as a diagram.

The Alderley Edge - Southport services are pathed for a 100mph 319 between Alderley Edge and Bolton (electrified portion of the route), and for a 75mph 15x between Bolton and Southport. They run non-stop between Salford Crescent and Bolton, so there is plenty of time for a 319/769 to get above 75mph.

319 paths (for the Alderley Edge - Southport, Hazel Grove - Blackpool and Victoria - Preston services) have 9 minute timings from Salford Crescent to Bolton, whereas non-stop 15x paths (for the Rochdale - Clitheroe services) have 12 minutes.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Northern have a ridiculous policy of only opening up the power in stages. When they were at Thameslink they were driven properly (Straight into notch 2 then once the train starts moving, into 4).

The power in notch 1 is extremely low but Northern drivers seem to use it until about 15mph.

When the 319s first entered service in the North West I was very unimpressed by the initial acceleration, on one occasion the 319 I was travelling on departed Leyland on the up slow parallel with a 150 on the up fast and they remained parallel for some distance. Subsequently, perhaps as the drivers learned the capabilities and 'forgot' the mantra from the training course, there was a noticeable improvement in the acceleration, with many drivers clearly ignoring the notch 1 until 15mph theory.

 

[Senna1210]

Tfw are still waiting for the 9th unit to be delivered

That will not be till next year The three already converted vehicles will arrive at Pullmans for the refresh portion of work the last vehicle will be Jan/Feb next year

 

[samuelmorris]

Can anyone comment on what power setting (for a 769) this is likely to be? I'm not necessarily suggesting this is as fast as the units can do, but damn it's lethargic

Something I notice from one of this guy's other videos - at full power the exhaust/turbo noise from inside is pretty horrific. I don't mind a bit of DMU noise but that hissing would get pretty infuriating fast.
It's impossible to gauge how much power is being applied from the diesel vehicles as the engine runs at full speed outside stations regardless of load, which seems pretty inefficient.

 

[Fincra5]

Can anyone comment on what power setting (for a 769) this is likely to be? I'm not necessarily suggesting this is as fast as the units can do, but damn it's lethargic

Something I notice from one of this guy's other videos - at full power the exhaust/turbo noise from inside is pretty horrific. I don't mind a bit of DMU noise but that hissing would get pretty infuriating fast.
It's impossible to gauge how much power is being applied from the diesel vehicles as the engine runs at full speed outside stations regardless of load, which seems pretty inefficient.

Seems like notch 2...

 

[Geeves]

There was a whole rash of issues with the 319s after transfer north including, transformer failures, broken cardan shafts and fried circuit boards. There was never any need for them to be driven so hard up here anyway all the routes were still on 75mph DMU timings for years, even now there are not many 100mph stretches. I would say Thameslink had the best years out of them!

 

[fgwrich]

Can anyone comment on what power setting (for a 769) this is likely to be? I'm not necessarily suggesting this is as fast as the units can do, but damn it's lethargic

Something I notice from one of this guy's other videos - at full power the exhaust/turbo noise from inside is pretty horrific. I don't mind a bit of DMU noise but that hissing would get pretty infuriating fast.
It's impossible to gauge how much power is being applied from the diesel vehicles as the engine runs at full speed outside stations regardless of load, which seems pretty inefficient.

I'm not sure what's causing that hissing - perhaps a blocked radiator as the Turbostar's seem to do something similar. I do agree it is quite irritating though, as is the high revving engine until it's stood in the station. Oddly, it seems to quieten down at around 01:42 with an almost Sprinter like gear change to about standard 150 levels of noise.

 

[Jim]

I have to echo the sentiments regarding the 319 driving styles on NT being somewhat sedate, I recall the first year they had them there were a couple that slipped to a stand / had trouble on the banks between Wigan and Huyton. As with many companies, there is a driving policy laid down to make sure you go as slow as possible (cynic!)

Back to 769s, that is quite a din coming from the diesel coaches, sounds like it has already got some wheelflats on it too in the diesel vehicles !

It's hard to tell exactly, but doesn't seem the best acceleration in a world, would like to see what one could do out of Dingle Road one day!

 

[AM9]

I'm not sure what's causing that hissing - perhaps a blocked radiator as the Turbostar's seem to do something similar. I do agree it is quite irritating though, as is the high revving engine until it's stood in the station. Oddly, it seems to quieten down at around 01:42 with an almost Sprinter like gear change to about standard 150 levels of noise.

I note that the gangway door on the DTCO video is half open yet the coach windows are all closed. That would allow direct noise to enter from the engine exhaust end of the genset yet relatively muffle the mechanical noise from the engine directly underneath.

 

[Bow Fell]

Northern have a ridiculous policy of only opening up the power in stages. When they were at Thameslink they were driven properly (Straight into notch 2 then once the train starts moving, into 4).

The power in notch 1 is extremely low but Northern drivers seem to use it until about 15mph.

Ha ha no, they are actually the worst for holding notches for as long as they can.
I remember hearing a conversation between two Lime St drivers saying they don’t put it into weakfield until 65mph

I have to echo the sentiments regarding the 319 driving styles on NT being somewhat sedate, I recall the first year they had them there were a couple that slipped to a stand / had trouble on the banks between Wigan and Huyton. As with many companies, there is a driving policy laid down to make sure you go as slow as possible (cynic!)

Back to 769s, that is quite a din coming from the diesel coaches, sounds like it has already got some wheelflats on it too in the diesel vehicles !

It's hard to tell exactly, but doesn't seem the best acceleration in a world, would like to see what one could do out of Dingle Road one day!

Yep I echo the above! There was a lot of straight into Notch 4 at the start of their introduction, it’s a lot more sedate these days! After numerous flashovers and traction motor overloads!

It’s the same with 507/8’s, there’s nothing wrong with going straight into Notch 4, but ideally you should notch up gradually, especially this time of year, drivers going straight into Notch 4, then reporting WSP and motors dropping out!

 

[Llama]

I doubt that anybody at Northern has ever been told to use power notch 1 to 10 or 15mph.

I've never driven them like that and nor has anyone else I know. Half the time you'd never even get to 15mph in notch 1.

There were a large number of traction motor flashovers happening when they first entered service on Northern. This was put down to driving technique (I have my doubts about that). A notice was subsequently posted saying that the units would have their OTDR downloaded in the event of any traction motor failure and anybody found to have been opening up straight to full power would be held responsible. I queried this notice and was told by the person whose name was on the bottom that so long as full traction power wasn't taken from a standstill there would be no repercussion. I've driven 319s for years since they came to Northern and have never had a traction motor related problem.

 

[Senna1210]

Is the video 769006?

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, 769006.

 

[Bikeman78]

Can anyone comment on what power setting (for a 769) this is likely to be? I'm not necessarily suggesting this is as fast as the units can do, but damn it's lethargic

Something I notice from one of this guy's other videos - at full power the exhaust/turbo noise from inside is pretty horrific. I don't mind a bit of DMU noise but that hissing would get pretty infuriating fast.
It's impossible to gauge how much power is being applied from the diesel vehicles as the engine runs at full speed outside stations regardless of load, which seems pretty inefficient.

As far as I can tell, that is full power. It's uphill from Llanishen to Lisvane so I'd be surprised if it wasn't full power. I mentioned on the TFW thread that they are painfully slow.

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I can tell, that is full power. It's uphill from Llanishen to Lisvane so I'd be surprised if it wasn't full power. I mentioned on the TFW thread that they are painfully slow.

To my ears, that particular video sounds like about 70 seconds 0-30. No way are any of the legacy DMUs the 769s are replacing anywhere near that slow. I don't know what the gradient is on that route but given the train doesn't immediately start slowing when power is released, it can't be that bad. If that is genuinely full speed, I can see some timetable amendments coming in future. A fully laden freight train could probably keep up with this.

 

[Bikeman78]

To my ears, that particular video sounds like about 70 seconds 0-30. No way are any of the legacy DMUs the 769s are replacing anywhere near that slow. I don't know what the gradient is on that route but given the train doesn't immediately start slowing when power is released, it can't be that bad. If that is genuinely full speed, I can see some timetable amendments coming in future. A fully laden freight train could probably keep up with this.

I agree. Has the Southport line had the timings amended? The Cardiff valleys have had all station dwells increased to at least 60 seconds (most stations were 30 seconds until March) so the 769s can just keep time. The North Downs line will be interesting.

 

[Llama]

The Southport line timings are tight even for 15x units, especially for anything stopping at Hoscar in the up direction because of the restrictive nature of Dean Lane AHBC controls in 'stopping' mode.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

To my ears, that particular video sounds like about 70 seconds 0-30. No way are any of the legacy DMUs the 769s are replacing anywhere near that slow. I don't know what the gradient is on that route but given the train doesn't immediately start slowing when power is released, it can't be that bad. If that is genuinely full speed, I can see some timetable amendments coming in future. A fully laden freight train could probably keep up with this.

It seems to me that Porterbrook believe their product is fast enough from their website:

The FLEX concept involves converting existing Class 319 units to Class 769 FLEX units, delivering lower operational costs on both electrified and non-electrified routes, by fitting two new powerpacks – one under each driving vehicle. These low emission (Stage IIIB compliant) MAN engines are coupled to ABB alternators which in turn provide power to the existing DC bus, and the traction and auxiliary equipment.

The modular design of the powerpack rafts means the vehicle can be adapted for future energy modes. Diesel engines can be replaced by battery packs and hydrogen fuel cells to create a zero emission self-powered unit.

This exciting concept will result in passenger trains offering performance that can match or exceed the diesel fleets they replace, significantly raise air-quality, and offer a cost effective alternative to commissioning brand new trains.

 

[samuelmorris]

It seems to me that Porterbrook believe their product is fast enough from their website:

I remember that blurb, and the information spread around has always be that 769s would at least match 150s for performance. That video, however, is either on a greatly reduced power setting, or that statement is demonstrably false. I've only heard acceleration that slow on a Mk3 EMU when crawling through a caution or nudging up towards a red signal. Certainly none of the 150s I've ever been on have been that slow.

 

[Jamesrob637]

At least Northern ones will be on electric for part of their journey unlike the Welsh ones which might as well be bona fide diesels for now.

I don't know if I can cope with both Southport to Alderley Edge and Piccadilly to Crewe being 319 or a derivative thereof, however! At least 323s operate the majority of the Crewes.

 

[warwickshire]

Does anyone have any more information and updates on the Northern 769 progress into service?

Is it still around March or will it be delayed further?

 

[Efini92]

ASLEF still have them blackballed so not sure.

 

[delticdave]

ASLEF still have them blackballed so not sure.

Why are ASLEF blackballing these units?

 

[JN114]

Why are ASLEF blackballing these units?

No cab air con

 

[Jamesrob637]

No cab air con

Thought they could get away with that until Spring and warmer weather?

 

[Efini92]

Why are ASLEF blackballing these units?

They are saying because the 769 is in effect a new unit, the cab cool system isn’t acceptable.
it’s funny how they rolled over and allowed the CAF units into service with a whole plague of serious fault but a minor issue on the 769’s is a big deal.

 

[Wyrleybart]

No cab air con

Presume ASLE&F don't mandate aircon in Wales then !!

 

[Efini92]

Presume ASLE&F don't mandate aircon in Wales then !!

Different company, different company council

 

[adc82140]

Different company, different company council

I've never got this. Either something is safe or it isn't. My (non railway) union's policy is that anything to do with working practices agreed with them (or not) applies everywhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Different company, different company council

And yet they are both now in government hands (different governments, though).