UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

You are right actually, it's deaths that reduced for another 6 weeks after mandation although they were very minor figures anyway. Either way i've no doubt these people associated masks with low rates judging by what I was reading at the time on social media etc.

A cynic might think that the government chose to introduce them at the time they did because they could reasonably predict what the figures would do, given the time of year, and knew that this would be seen as evidence that masks work!

 

[bramling]

Didn't cases actually increase soon after masks were mandated (having been in decline up to that point)?



Maskivists always have an answer to that one - "it would be worse otherwise"!

They've basically created a situation with these restrictions where they can't lose - if restrictions are followed by a fall in cases (whether causation or just coincidence) then that's evidence that the restrictions work. If cases stay the same or increase, then it would be even worse without the restrictions. There is no scenario which, so far as they are concerned, will demonstrate that the restrictions are pointless.

It does bug me that so few people seem prepared to even consider the possibility that masks might actually be having a negative effect.

Obviously that’s too sophisticated for some, who remain stuck at the “granny killer” level of discourse.

 

[Domh245]

Masks need to be made of three layers,

"Excuse me sir, sorry to stop you today but we're doing spot mask checks. Can you please remove your mask, stick your fingers all over it and prove that it is three layers please, thank you."

 

[bramling]

"Excuse me sir, sorry to stop you today but we're doing spot mask checks. Can you please remove your mask, stick your fingers all over it and prove that it is three layers please, thank you."

No worse than Biden the lead virtue-signaller, who then has the stupidity to be seen all over worldwide TV constantly touching, adjusting and fiddling with his mask.

America has no hope when they’re stuck between that and bleach injection!

 

[MikeWM]

Didn't cases actually increase soon after masks were mandated (having been in decline up to that point)?

I made a new years resolution to stop posting graphs, but like all new years resolutions, it didn't last long.

Here's a graph from @ianmSC on twitter, who I'm going to plug again as an excellent source of graphs showing how utterly ineffective masks are (and other NPIs, though the emphasis is on masks). Note this misses a label for the ludicrous extension in late September to pubs/restaurants etc., immediately before the first big vertical rise occurs.



Out of interest, here's Denmark ('so much better than Sweden') for comparison

 

[The Ham]

I made a new years resolution to stop posting graphs, but like all new years resolutions, it didn't last long.

Here's a graph from @ianmSC on twitter, who I'm going to plug again as an excellent source of graphs showing how utterly ineffective masks are (and other NPIs, though the emphasis is on masks). Note this misses a label for the ludicrous extension in late September to pubs/restaurants etc., immediately before the first big vertical rise occurs.

View attachment 88160

Out of interest, here's Denmark ('so much better than Sweden') for comparison

View attachment 88161

As I've highlighted before the line of growth with a 1% lower rate wouldn't look all that different, however over time the actual numbers could be quite a bit less.

As such graphs like this are meaningless in this debate, as we have no comparison and so neither side can claim that they show anything other than the rates of infection.

 

[Yew]

It does bug me that so few people seem prepared to even consider the possibility that masks might actually be having a negative effect.

Obviously that’s too sophisticated for some, who remain stuck at the “granny killer” level of discourse.

Too much system 1 thinking, rather than detailled system 2 analysis.

 

[DB]

As such graphs like this are meaningless in this debate, as we have no comparison and so neither side can claim that they show anything other than the rates of infection.

But they do not show that masks are making a positive difference! Look at the graphs for countries across the world where mask mandates have been brought in at various times, without significant other changes at the same time which might distort the picutre, and they all show no benefit. You cannot claim 'it would be worse otherwise' as there is no evidence for that. Just like you cannot claim that everybody wearing, say, a sombrero would reduce cases as there is no evidence for that either. Scientific proof doesn't work on the basis of trying to prove a negative - it's down to the proponents to prove the positive.

In the normal world, no evidence of any benefit would be regarded as just that - but in the warped world we now live in the politicians can get away with claiming to 'follow the science' while at the same time ignoring the fact that there is no evidence (scientific, or statistical) that they actually have any benefit at all. Never before have supposedly liberal western societies introduced laws based on such non-existent evidence.

 

[MikeWM]

As I've highlighted before the line of growth with a 1% lower rate wouldn't look all that different, however over time the actual numbers could be quite a bit less.

As such graphs like this are meaningless in this debate, as we have no comparison and so neither side can claim that they show anything other than the rates of infection.

The Twitter account I mentioned has a lot of graphs that do just that (as far as possible) often using US states (so similar climate, population density, etc.) I'm not going to post a load more graphs here, but eg. those comparing Montana with Idaho, North and South Dakota, Alabama and Mississippi, and North and South Carolina, all posted there in the last couple of weeks, are very instructive in comparing places that mandate masks with similar places that do not.

 

[notlob.divad]

I will continue wearing my mask until someone shows me peer reviewed scientific evidence that it is doing harm. Why? because I have no problem wearing an extra piece of clothing if there is a possibility that it is helping reduce the pandemic. It doesn't need to be effective, for me to wear it, just to not be making the probelm worse. I have no difficulty or objection to wearing one. My partner on the other hand does have some difficulty. As she wears glasses, they often steam up whilst wearing a mask meaning she repeatedly has to take her glasses off to clean potentially coming into contact with her mask and face. In her scenario I could see the wearing of the mask slightly increasing the risk, but again, I have seen no evidence to demonstrate it.

For many of the libertarians on here that may seem a perverse way of viewing the world, if you align wearing a mask as an infringement on your civil liberties. Personally I don't as I regularly chose to wear some form of facecovering, (particularly in cold weather) anyway.

 

[bramling]

I will continue wearing my mask until someone shows me peer reviewed scientific evidence that it is doing harm. Why? because I have no problem wearing an extra piece of clothing if there is a possibility that it is helping reduce the pandemic. It doesn't need to be effective, for me to wear it, just to not be making the probelm worse. I have no difficulty or objection to wearing one. My partner on the other hand does have some difficulty. As she wears glasses, they often steam up whilst wearing a mask meaning she repeatedly has to take her glasses off to clean potentially coming into contact with her mask and face. In her scenario I could see the wearing of the mask slightly increasing the risk, but again, I have seen no evidence to demonstrate it.

For many of the libertarians on here that may seem a perverse way of viewing the world, if you align wearing a mask as an infringement on your civil liberties. Personally I don't as I regularly chose to wear some form of facecovering, (particularly in cold weather) anyway.

That’s absolutely fine, no one is seeking to influence your actions, and if you wish to wear a mask then fine.

I do not wish to wear one, and if others don’t like that then they can do one.

 

[Bantamzen]

For many of the libertarians on here that may seem a perverse way of viewing the world, if you align wearing a mask as an infringement on your civil liberties. Personally I don't as I regularly chose to wear some form of facecovering, (particularly in cold weather) anyway.

Without infringing on your personal decisions which you are entitled to, wearing face coverings when in routine interactions do deprive most people of at least some facial feedback that many people give off. For some people this can lead to misunderstandings, tensions and in some cases anxiety. You may be comfortable with them, others are not. If these are to be continued to be mandated then it is those making these laws with whom the onus of proof lies. They've had the best part of a year to do so, yet the basic evidence seems to suggest that they do not help contain the spread.

 

[Ken H]

During the periods of relative freedom I went on two or three day trips around the country. I used the same mask for the whole trip and it went in and out of my pocket several times. It didn't do me any harm but it probably renders the whole thing rather pointless.

Ugh!. what were you inhaling at the end of the day....

Without infringing on your personal decisions which you are entitled to, wearing face coverings when in routine interactions do deprive most people of at least some facial feedback that many people give off. For some people this can lead to misunderstandings, tensions and in some cases anxiety. You may be comfortable with them, others are not. If these are to be continued to be mandated then it is those making these laws with whom the onus of proof lies. They've had the best part of a year to do so, yet the basic evidence seems to suggest that they do not help contain the spread.

I find the loss of non verbal communication with mask wearing quite disturbing. it removes much human contact from your day. I am sure this will cause mental problems for many. Not least you are also not 100% sire if someone is having a bit of a laugh or being serious.

 

[notlob.divad]

Without infringing on your personal decisions which you are entitled to, wearing face coverings when in routine interactions do deprive most people of at least some facial feedback that many people give off. For some people this can lead to misunderstandings, tensions and in some cases anxiety. You may be comfortable with them, others are not. If these are to be continued to be mandated then it is those making these laws with whom the onus of proof lies. They've had the best part of a year to do so, yet the basic evidence seems to suggest that they do not help contain the spread.

Well if me wearing a facecovering has the added benefit that, people who may misundertand increase tension or generate anxiety, when deprived of that facial feedback, don't attempt to communicate with me, then all the more reason for me to be happy continuing to wear them.

That’s absolutely fine, no one is seeking to influence your actions, and if you wish to wear a mask then fine.

Yet you do, as you repeatedly disparage those of us who do want to wear a mask. In much the same way I remember being back at School where the handful of people who actively chose to behave work hard and do what the teachers said because they wanted to, were disparaged by those who only wanted to rebel against the authoritive figure. The attitude you (amongst others) portray on here comes across very much as such.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well if me wearing a facecovering has the added benefit that, people who may misundertand increase tension or generate anxiety, when deprived of that facial feedback, don't attempt to communicate with me, then all the more reason for me to be happy continuing to wear them.

Unfortunately society doesn't work like that, lots of people have to interact, communicate and understand each other. Like I said, you may be comfortable with them, many are not. So the onus to prove masks actually have a benefit falls exclusively to those forcing their use.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well if me wearing a facecovering has the added benefit that, people who may misundertand increase tension or generate anxiety, when deprived of that facial feedback, don't attempt to communicate with me, then all the more reason for me to be happy continuing to wear them.

What you are suggesting there seems to be that anyone who finds social interaction difficult (and that may be for a variety of reasons, more often than not through no fault of the individual's own), who is liable to misunderstand you, or even who has poor hearing, is so obviously inferior to you that they don't even bear thinking about and are entirely undeserving of your attention.

If you simply think that the benefits of wearing a mask outweigh the inconvenience that you may cause to the above people, then I think that's fine - it is after all your opinion. But if you genuinely want to discriminate who you talk to based on that, then with all due respect, as I may be reading your post the wrong way here, that is a horrible attitude to take.

 

[Ken H]

Unfortunately society doesn't work like that, lots of people have to interact, communicate and understand each other. Like I said, you may be comfortable with them, many are not. So the onus to prove masks actually have a benefit falls exclusively to those forcing their use.

which they have yet to do.

people point to the far east that has had less problems with COVID, and they habitually wear masks. But they wear masks to stop inhaling air pollution, and they will have some herd immunity to corona from previous SARS infections. (T-cell immunity will help against COVID if you have had any corona virus infection)

 

[DustyBin]

There is not a chance in hell this is a genuine document from the CDC - just reading the language tells us this. There's spelling mistakes, grammatical errors and official documents don't put RANDOM words in CAPITALS or "quotes" for effect.
This sort of bull**** misinformation is downright dangerous

Genuine or otherwise, and I agree it doesn't look like it is with hindsight, it's not really dangerous misinformation is it? Other than the the claim about CO2 everything it says is pretty much what we were told about mask wearing until the WHO suddenly changed it's mind. There's no evidence they are effective. We can hypothesise about how they may possibly be of use in very specific circumstances, but the reality is that infection rates sky rocketed across europe following the introduction of mask mandates.

 

[notlob.divad]

But they wear masks to stop inhaling air pollution

Another excellent reason to continue wearing masks into the future. Given the repeated breeches of air pollution limits in the UK and across Europe as a whole. It is probably something else we should be 'learning' from the East Asian countries that have handled this so much better than ourselves.

 

[Ken H]

Another excellent reason to continue wearing masks into the future. Given the repeated breeches of air pollution limits in the UK and across Europe as a whole. It is probably something else we should be 'learning' from the East Asian countries that have handled this so much better than ourselves.

so why did I fond someone wearing one at the top of Ingleborough

 

[Bantamzen]

Another excellent reason to continue wearing masks into the future. Given the repeated breeches of air pollution limits in the UK and across Europe as a whole. It is probably something else we should be 'learning' from the East Asian countries that have handled this so much better than ourselves.

Or perhaps reduce car use and encourage use of public transport? I mean that's a better solution isn't it, albeit for another thread.

 

[notlob.divad]

Or perhaps reduce car use and encourage use of public transport? I mean that's a better solution isn't it, albeit for another thread.

It is another valid solution, but until that point? I also think you will find an even bigger barriers fomr the libertarians when trying to legislate in that regards to take away people's individual freedoms and liberties to drive.

so why did I fond someone wearing one at the top of Ingleborough

Because they wanted to...

do you need another reason?

 

[Bantamzen]

It is another valid solution, but until that point? I also think you will find an even bigger barriers fomr the libertarians when trying to legislate in that regards to take away people's individual freedoms and liberties to drive.

We would probably be better advised taking this debate to another thread.

 

[py_megapixel]

Personally, I have no issue with communicating with others through a mask if it's a quiet environment, but introduce any noise and I quickly find myself shouting. Now, that's not ideal, but it's also not the end of the world.

However, there are people who have far more challenges communicating through a mask than I do. As such, I am happy to continue wearing a mask, and I still think that if others are happy to do so then they should.
But I think a mandation is unhelpful, especially when people who have genuine difficulties wearing one are being discriminated against.

Genuine or otherwise, and I agree it doesn't look like it is with hindsight, it's not really dangerous misinformation is it?

Regardless of whether you consider it to harmful misinformation, it's inauthentic nonetheless, and I disagree that it is sensible to believe inauthentic documents which are fraudulently using CDC branding just because they happen to agree with your point of view. I also don't think it does anything to help the aforementioned point of view.

 

[trebor79]

Another excellent reason to continue wearing masks into the future. Given the repeated breeches of air pollution limits in the UK and across Europe as a whole. It is probably something else we should be 'learning' from the East Asian countries that have handled this so much better than ourselves.

It should be a personal choice, not a mandate. If you want to inhale microplastic particles deep into your lungs, go right ahead. I'll pass thanks.
To mandate mask usage to prevent inhalation of low level pollution would be absolutely absurd whilst it remains legal to smoke.

 

[DB]

Regardless of whether you consider it to harmful misinformation, it's inauthentic nonetheless, and I disagree that it is sensible to believe inauthentic documents which are fraudulently using CDC branding just because they happen to agree with your point of view. I also don't think it does anything to help the aforementioned point of view.

It's not that they agree with a particular point of view - it's that (badly written though it may be) the views expressed in that document are pretty much what the CDC, WHO and other health authorities were officially saying (on their own websites, etc) until earlier this year - so not 'dangerous misinformation'.

 

[DustyBin]

Another excellent reason to continue wearing masks into the future. Given the repeated breeches of air pollution limits in the UK and across Europe as a whole. It is probably something else we should be 'learning' from the East Asian countries that have handled this so much better than ourselves.

As per the previous responses if you like wearing a mask then I'm fine with that, it would be hypocritical of me to deny you that right. But at the same time those of us who don't want to wear one shouldn't be forced to unless there is evidence that they really work. I'm never going to enjoy wearing a mask and I'm never going to enjoy seeing other people wearing them, but I'll stop oposing it if presented with evidence that they actually help reduce transmission.

I'm not sure the comparison with East Asian countries is particularly helpful to be honest. Different culture, different climate, previous SARS outbreaks and comparatively miniscule levels of testing....

 

[notlob.divad]

whilst it remains legal to smoke.

As a non-smoker, this is yet another excellent reason to keep my mouth and nose covered, even after covid is done and dusted.

If you want to inhale microplastic particles deep into your lungs

My masks are not made of microplastics, but nice try,

but I'll stop oposing it if presented with evidence that they actually help reduce transmission.

And I will stop supporting it when presented with evidence that they make transmission worse.

I feel we will be stuck in this stand-off lacking evidence for an awful long time.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm not sure the comparison with East Asian countries is particularly helpful to be honest. Different culture, different climate, previous SARS outbreaks and comparatively miniscule levels of testing....

Those who have been continually extolling the virtues of the approach of East Asian countries, don't appear to have looked at what has happened to cases in South Korea or Japan over the past month or two. (They also don't explain why Japan has terrible flu seasons on a regular basis).

 

[trainophile]

If they introduce compulsory three-layer face coverings I will be making myself some reusable clip-on ear loops and using sheets of triple ply Andrex for masks! It's hard enough to breathe through a single layer (of close woven cotton), never mind three.

The whole concept bewilders me, in that presumably we are still permitted to breathe, in which case we are still expelling breath, which has to go somewhere so takes a sideways route out from behind your mask instead of going forwards. Same end result.