New 4-tier system for England

[6862]

I'm not wishing it, but I think it will last longer.

I suspect you are correct. They really have it in for us.

 

[MikeWM]

It's frustrating to hear people blurt out 'lockdown' as a necessity as if it is a perfectly normal action that would be taken by a western liberal democratic nation such as this. The untold impact of that word on daily life... Words from government about 'sacrifice' from BoJo, Whitty and Valance are plain worthless now.

The concept has been normalised in less than a year - if you had suggested it this time last year, you would have been considered mad. That in itself is, for me, far more terrifying than the specifics.

 

[DB]

Seems to me people are not giving a hoot these days as everyone is fed up (well near me anyway) so Boris will read the riot act (so to speak).

The thing is though, as every new restriction from him seems to result in even lower compliance, he is undermining his own authority by continually introducing more restrictions to be ignored even more. And what can he do? There are nowhere near enough police to do anything other than make token gestures.

 

[kristiang85]

This is what Peston says, and he's usally on the money (AKA he's got the low-down from Boris' minions in advance)

"PM will be directly addressing the nation. It won’t be a press conference. Tier 4 restrictions will be imposed everywhere. Schools closed. No more team games in parks. But outdoor exercise will still be allowed."

 

[duncanp]

The stats are highly unreliable though due to a lot of inquest delays - it's going to be a while before the accurate stats are available.

And presumably the figures have been massaged by a lot of inquests returning "open" verdicts because they want to hide the true scale of the problem there is not enough evidence to suggest that the deceased intended to take his own life.

 

[Hawkwood Junc]

The concept has been normalised in less than a year - if you had suggested it this time last year, you would have been considered mad. That in itself is, for me, far more terrifying than the specifics.

Could not agree more. Imagine saying the following sentence on 4th January 2020 "We need to legislate to close businesses, suspend education and organised gatherings, close all leisure facilities and stop you from spending time with anyone not in your household for an indefinite period. This is due to a virus"

 

[johntea]

The BBC have dug out the Level 5 alert graphic...remember when that was a thing?!

 

[philjo]

Latest BBC update now mentions that parliament will be recalled on Wednesday this week to allow MPs to vote on any additional restrictions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55534999

 

[Peter C]

The BBC have dug out the Level 5 alert graphic...remember when that was a thing?!

Just found it - as far as I remember, govt. used it for a few weeks before it seemed to disappear

-Peter

 

[island]

Just what other restrictions can be put in place? tier 4 is lockdown, stay at home, leave only for exercise etc

Possibilities include:

• Closure of schools
• working from home required by law unless impossible/on a list of approved occupations
• increased controls on international arrivals
• extension of mask requirements (offices, outdoors, etc.)
• road checkpoints
• multiple adults not allowed to shop together
• overnight curfews
• closing places of worship
• 3 mile limit of travel from your home
• increase to penalties for breaches
• Close zoos
• no going out for recreation, only exercise
• walk-up takeaway food and drink banned, only drive thru or delivery
• non-essential goods by click & collect banned, only delivery
• alcohol and/or tobacco banned or restricted
• exercise limited to once per day
• no travel to other places for exercise; exercise must start and finish at your home
• non-emergency work in people’s homes banned, e.g. no home improvement, Sky installation etc.
• support groups banned
• children’s organised sports banned
• support bubbles abolished or limited

For the avoidance of doubt I am not advocating any of these nor even suggesting they would work, but there is still a considerable amount of available interventions.

 

[DB]

Could not agree more. Imagine saying the following sentence on 4th January 2020 "We need to legislate to close businesses, suspend education and organised gatherings, close all leisure facilities and stop you from spending time with anyone not in your household for an indefinite period. This is due to a virus"

... a virus with a survival rate of at least 99.7%, and which has already demonstrates that it can happily bypass any restrictions and carry on spreading.

 

[packermac]

It's good that people are being helped, and therefore not killing themselves, but they should never be put in the situation where they need help. I've said it before and I've said it again, Boris and co deserve to be charged with crimes against humanity. It'll never happen, but it would be great to see that awful man stood in a courtroom in The Hague, having the charges against him read out.

Well if you have looked at Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court perhaps you can tell me which of the specified actions that constitute a crime against humanity our PM, or for that matter any leader in the Western World has committed over the handling of the Covid crisis.
The only one that could vaguely be used is "Other inhumane acts" and I would love to hear your legal argument for how protecting the lives of your population fails that test.

 

[Yew]

Closure of education. Possibly even a curfew though I cannot see how that can be fair or workable, or make any difference.

When have they let that get in their way?

 

[6862]

Well if you have looked at Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court perhaps you can tell me which of the specified actions that constitute a crime against humanity our PM, or for that matter any leader in the Western World has committed over the handling of the Covid crisis.
The only one that could vaguely be used is "Other inhumane acts" and I would love to hear your legal argument for how protecting the lives of your population fails that test.

I'm no lawyer, and you will notice that I said it would never happen. But I personally consider that the general cruelty of the restrictions (such as denying us the right to a family life, restricting our freedom to worship and denying children an education) would be a good reason for charging them.

 

[DB]

would love to hear your legal argument for how protecting the lives of your population fails that test.

Well, he's certainly not protecting the lives of those who commit suicide as a result of his actions, is he?

And as for the argument that these restrictions actually protect anyone at risk from the Deadly Killer Virus, the evidence from comparing countries with differing levels of restrictions indicates strongly that they make no difference.

 

[brick60000]

Closing schools, universities and places of worship. Plus a heavy dose of fear.

I sincerely hope not...though I fear you may be right. Absolutely fed up of paying £9.25k for getting absolutely nowhere near what we are paying for from our university.

Decided to work in the library today, just in case it's the last time I get to "enjoy" being outside of my tiny halls bedroom for a while....

 

[duncanp]

Possibilities include:

• Closure of schools
• working from home required by law unless impossible/on a list of approved occupations
• increased controls on international arrivals
• extension of mask requirements (offices, outdoors, etc.)
• road checkpoints
• multiple adults not allowed to shop together
• overnight curfews
• closing places of worship
• 3 mile limit of travel from your home
• increase to penalties for breaches
• Close zoos
• no going out for recreation, only exercise
• walk-up takeaway food and drink banned, only drive thru or delivery
• non-essential goods by click & collect banned, only delivery
• alcohol and/or tobacco banned or restricted
• exercise limited to once per day
• no travel to other places for exercise; exercise must start and finish at your home
• non-emergency work in people’s homes banned, e.g. no home improvement, Sky installation etc.
• support groups banned
• children’s organised sports banned
• support bubbles abolished or limited

For the avoidance of doubt I am not advocating any of these nor even suggesting they would work, but there is still a considerable amount of available interventions.

I think the measures for England will be similar to those for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

• Limiting exercise to once per day is difficult to enforce - if you are out jogging in the evening, how do the police know whether you went out in the morning as well
• Banning alcohol completely will seriously **** people off, and lead to a lot of black market transactions, as happened during the Second World War.

 

[Tracked]

I think the measures for England will be similar to those for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

I think; like Scotland, but not quite as severe, possibly so he can make a point of saying that (even if they're not as effective)

 

[DustyBin]

Latest BBC update now mentions that parliament will be recalled on Wednesday this week to allow MPs to vote on any additional restrictions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55534999

Can anybody confirm whether or not 'tinkering' with the tier 4 restrictions requires such a vote?

 

[joncombe]

Can anybody confirm whether or not 'tinkering' with the tier 4 restrictions requires such a vote?

I don't think technically it does no. I think the "emergency" legislation allows changes to the laws without a parliamentary vote. However he has since committed to holding a vote on any changes where possible, but it isn't required and the exact criteria of when a vote will or will not take place has not been set out as far as I know.

Edit: I don't think there was a vote before T4 was introduced, in fact

 

[Watershed]

Can anybody confirm whether or not 'tinkering' with the tier 4 restrictions requires such a vote?

Anything that involves making new Regulations under the 1984 Act requires a Parliamentary vote within 28 days.

Of course in a situation as fast-changing as this, that gives the PM the power to effectively side-line Parliament. He can make superseding Regulations before the existing ones have been voted on. Or he can simply make an identical SI anew, even if it has been voted down in a different guise.

In any case, for the House not to rubber-stamp whatever is put before them would be to break with decades of precedent.

It would also be arithmetically improbable given the pro-restrictions stance of most of the two major parties' MPs. Such a possibility can almost certainly be ruled out.

 

[Darandio]

Edit: I don't think there was a vote before T4 was introduced, in fact

That was because they announced Tier 4 on a Saturday, the day after Parliament went for Christmas recess simply so they could avoid having a vote.

 

[Mag_seven]

As ever the key will be what is in the Regulations. There will be a list of "reasonable excuses" for which you are allowed to leave your home. It will be interesting to see how they differ from the current Tier 4 list of "reasonable excuses".

 

[21C101]

It is nice to see a sensible discussion, unlike my town facebook group where, egged on by some members of a certain opposition party they are working each other up into a state of mass hysteria and denouncing anyone who dosen't agree with them.

 

[DustyBin]

I don't think technically it does no. I think the "emergency" legislation allows changes to the laws without a parliamentary vote. However he has since committed to holding a vote on any changes where possible, but it isn't required and the exact criteria of when a vote will or will not take place has not been set out as far as I know.

Edit: I don't think there was a vote before T4 was introduced, in fact

Anything that involves making new Regulations under the 1984 Act requires a Parliamentary vote within 28 days.

Of course in a situation as fast-changing as this, that gives the PM the power to effectively side-line Parliament. He can make superseding Regulations before the existing ones have been voted on. Or he can simply make an identical SI anew, even if it has been voted down in a different guise.

In any case, for the House not to rubber-stamp whatever is put before them would be to break with decades of precedent.

It would also be arithmetically improbable given the pro-restrictions stance of most of the two major parties. Such a possibility can almost certainly be ruled out.

Thanks both. My concern was that the vote suggested something ominous in the making, but hopefully not!

 

[Watershed]

As ever the key will be what is in the Regulations. There will be a list of "reasonable excuses" for which you are allowed to leave your home. It will be interesting to see how they differ from the current Tier 4 list of "reasonable excuses".

Given that the Regulation's list of such excuses is non-exhaustive, it is far from certain that removing an activity from the list automatically means it's no longer reasonable.

 

[DB]

It is nice to see a sensible discussion, unlike my town facebook group where, egged on by some members of a certain opposition party they are working each other up into a state of mass hysteria and denouncing anyone who dosen't agree with them.

How many people have been accused of being 'Granny Killers' and terrible people because they want to 'Let it Rip'? Those seem to be the favoured insults of the more paranoid type of Locktivist.

 

[Hawkwood Junc]

How many people have been accused of being 'Granny Killers' and terrible people because they want to 'Let it Rip'? Those seem to be the favoured insults of the more paranoid type of Locktivist.

These are the people for whom there is no nuance in the argument. Sadly incredibly vocal and likely to plaster their views all over social media. They are unable to see Covid as anything but a zero sum game.

 

[WelshBluebird]

How many people have been accused of being 'Granny Killers' and terrible people because they want to 'Let it Rip'? Those seem to be the favoured insults of the more paranoid type of Locktivist.

There is some irony of you doing the same though ("locktivist" and some of other similar terms thrown around in these threads).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Closure of education. Possibly even a curfew though I cannot see how that can be fair or workable, or make any difference.

Curfew would seem pretty pointless this time of the year but some EU countries have used it and in some French departments they've just amended from 8PM to 6PM so they must see it as beneficial.

Latest BBC update now mentions that parliament will be recalled on Wednesday this week to allow MPs to vote on any additional restrictions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55534999

Let see if the CRG lot really are serious about this ongoing affrontary to our civil liberties or whether they all slither away and leave Swayne as the only person prepared to speak out now.