Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

That's right, getting on at Stirling at midnight is just about tolerable, getting off at 5am isn't!

I have actually done that myself once, it was a bit, er, sleepless (and freezing cold!)

 

[Journeyman]

That's right, getting on at Stirling at midnight is just about tolerable, getting off at 5am isn't!

Doing anything at all at 5am should be illegal!

 

[ainsworth74]

The longest platforms at Queen Street high level accommodate 8x23m, back in the day 2+8 HSTs may have called and blocked up the station throat a little, but I seriously doubt that could be accommodated today.

The couple of times I did the Fort William portion from Fort William it went via Queen Street low level (set-down only) and it wasn't at a wholly anti-social hour in that direction (just after midnight as I recall) so could certainly be an option to maintain some sleeper link to London. Going in the other direction the question would be is it worth (and practical considering the limited passing points and high demand in the morning peak on the low level platforms) delaying the arrival into Fort William to give a slightly less early arrival into Glasgow. Certainly though I don't think it would be insurmountable to ditch a separate Glasgow service but still maintain at least some overnight link between Glagsow and London.

 

[Journeyman]

I have actually done that myself once, it was a bit, er, sleepless (and freezing cold!)

I had to be in Crewe for a 9am start once, and the only way I could do it was getting dumped there by the sleeper at just gone five. That was about the slowest and least pleasant four hours of my life. At least it was summer.

 

[Chrism20]

Fixed that for you.

There is of course the possibility of splitting it elsewhere. If you put Aberdeen & Edinburgh together there then isn't the requirement for the Inverness and Fort William portions to go to Edinburgh at all.

It may well be more convenient and cheaper to have all the splitting and attaching taking place at the one location if you are rearranging the allocated portions.

 

[adrock1976]

There is of course the possibility of splitting it elsewhere. If you put Aberdeen & Edinburgh together there then isn't the requirement for the Inverness and Fort William portions to go to Edinburgh at all.

It may well be more convenient and cheaper to have all the splitting and attaching taking place at the one location if you are rearranging the allocated portions.

If it would be feasible to use Mossend Yard with your suggestion, there are several routes that can be used for the Edinburgh portion, with the Aberdeen portion continuing via the Caledonian Main Line to Greenville Junction, then Falkirk Grahamston, Winchburgh Junction, Dalmeny, then as per existing route.

Likewise, the Inverness portion would go direct via the Caley to Stirling and as existing route. The Fort William can go various routes to Dalmuir via Queen Street or Central low level and as per existing route.

 

[31160]

Is there any prospect of any diversions via Dumfries this year

 

[Norther Monkey]

There's nothing surprising about the test trains described here.

From as early as 2016 CS managers spoke privately of a standalone Inverness service, and at the same time of the Lamington diversions to King's Cross there was talk of taking the sleepers away from Euston permanently. This would imply the end of the sort of lengthy portioned workings inherited from Scotrail.

If they were allowed to by Transport Scotland I'm sure that they would be delighted to kill off the Aberdeen and, even better, Glasgow sections. I've no inside knowledge from the past year or so, but my reading of this is that if they want to strengthen Inverness and the West Highland then they could find more stock to do that in Glasgow than in Aberdeen.

I think that they need to try harder with Aberdeen and provide a better service to a wider market by starting the section out from Inverness and taking it to intermediate stations north of Aberdeen. Inverness would still get its bigger train but via two separate routes. Okay there are problems with paths on the Aberdeen-Inverness line but surely it would be worth sorting these out to give places like Elgin and Huntly a direct London train, and to maintain a presence in Scotland's third city.

We'll see, but my money is on a reduced Lowlander that focuses on Edinburgh, and two Highlanders that are all about Inverness and a permutation of Fort William and Oban, with Aberdeen eased from franchise commitments over the next few years.

The success of all of this all presupposes a quick return of wealthy foreign tourists post Covid...

Until recently I was a regular commuter from Aberdeen to various towns and cities in England. I've often used the sleeper and it's my favourite way to travel. That said all too often the advantages of other means of transport were so great that ultimately the sleeper became an option I only used occasionally. Here's a quick,top of my head, list of the issues (very much from a business/commuter perspective)

• Cost of cabins - particularly post Serco. Whilst this may change as the dust settles post COVID, the cost of flying to London plus hotel is usually so much cheaper than the sleeper (for a cabin)
• Quality of rolling stock - I often used the seats as these still provide great value for money. However, the new seats are, in my opinion, so uncomfortable I was unable to get any effective rest the few times I've used them. A thoroughly unpleasant journey on every occasion. I would now only use if it was the only option (e.g. unable to make the last flight of the day and needed to be home the next morning). Completely unsuitable if I need to do any work the following day - unlike Mk 2.
• The complete focus on London - I've often worked in the Midlands with no direct flights and no other way of getting back to Aberdeen after a day's work (getting to London for a flight is usually impossible). In these cases the sleeper has no competition - it is the only way to get home or to work for the next day, yet I've never seen the sleeper marketed to take advantage of this market. This often involves extended waits at Crewe, Preston etc. following connections where the facilities are often closed, cold an unpleasant in the hours prior to the sleeper's arrival. Also when diverted up the EC there's never an option to board/alight north of London. Surely one or more of York/Peterborough/Doncaster could cope with a sleeper?

I think there's a business/commuter market for the sleeper, there simply seems no interest in exploiting it at the moment.

 

[JModulo]

Is there any prospect of any diversions via Dumfries this year

Hasn't been any for a few years. Last I recall was the end of March 2018, and Lamington diverts before that.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think there's a business/commuter market for the sleeper, there simply seems no interest in exploiting it at the moment.

Well, at the danger of re-treading old ground, I think that's very much the case. The old sleeper, under ScotRail, was to a great extent just a continuation of what it had been probably since at least InterCity days (if not before!) a mode of transport linking various parts of the UK overnight. The current sleeper as specified by Transport Scotland, to me, seems to be quite clearly a near total break from that and instead focusing on creating an 'experience' and trying to be more aimed at the tourist market. This has meant, in order to help pay for the fancy new trains and lower density accommodation, that fares have gone up. Looking at London to Inverness on a midweek date in mid-September the 'Classic' room (which I believe is basically the modern version of an old berth on the Mk3s) is £145. That's not outrageous but I'm not convinced it's a particular appealing price to anyone who needs to use it for business or commuting purposes. And that also seems to be the base price, it only goes up from there (a Wednesday in mid-July is going for £240 at the moment)...

Now, perhaps, Transport Scotland will, eventually, be vindicated and the Caledonian Sleeper will end up requiring less subsidy (I'm not convinced it will ever cover its costs) than the old integrated outfit and will help bring rich tourists to and from Scotland generally and the Highlands in particular. But I'm far from convinced, particularly as pre-pandemic there seemed like there was quite a lot of overpromising and under delivering going on, that that will necessarily be the case.

I do sometimes wonder if there isn't an alternative universe where Transport Scotland were a little more circumspect and instead invested in a high quality refurbishment of the existing rolling stock (see the Night Riveria for what can be achieved with the Mk3 sleeper and lounge vehicles) and were therefore able to achieve a better balance between trying to appeal to tourists after an 'experience' and people who live and work somewhere between London and the Highlands who want an affordable, comfortable and effective means of travelling between the two?

 

[Norther Monkey]

Well, at the danger of re-treading old ground, I think that's very much the case. The old sleeper, under ScotRail, was to a great extent just a continuation of what it had been probably since at least InterCity days (if not before!) a mode of transport linking various parts of the UK overnight. The current sleeper as specified by Transport Scotland, to me, seems to be quite clearly a near total break from that and instead focusing on creating an 'experience' and trying to be more aimed at the tourist market. This has meant, in order to help pay for the fancy new trains and lower density accommodation, that fares have gone up. Looking at London to Inverness on a midweek date in mid-September the 'Classic' room (which I believe is basically the modern version of an old berth on the Mk3s) is £145. That's not outrageous but I'm not convinced it's a particular appealing price to anyone who needs to use it for business or commuting purposes. And that also seems to be the base price, it only goes up from there (a Wednesday in mid-July is going for £240 at the moment)...

Now, perhaps, Transport Scotland will, eventually, be vindicated and the Caledonian Sleeper will end up requiring less subsidy (I'm not convinced it will ever cover its costs) than the old integrated outfit and will help bring rich tourists to and from Scotland generally and the Highlands in particular. But I'm far from convinced, particularly as pre-pandemic there seemed like there was quite a lot of overpromising and under delivering going on, that that will necessarily be the case.

I do sometimes wonder if there isn't an alternative universe where Transport Scotland were a little more circumspect and instead invested in a high quality refurbishment of the existing rolling stock (see the Night Riveria for what can be achieved with the Mk3 sleeper and lounge vehicles) and were therefore able to achieve a better balance between trying to appeal to tourists after an 'experience' and people who live and work somewhere between London and the Highlands who want an affordable, comfortable and effective means of travelling between the two?

As a first step some reclining seats that are actually comfortable enough for a little sleep, combined with aircon that can maintain a comfortable atmosphere would be a start (and possibly getting a drinks service in the seats before midnight).

Which is essentially what the Mk2s offered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do sometimes wonder if there isn't an alternative universe where Transport Scotland were a little more circumspect and instead invested in a high quality refurbishment of the existing rolling stock (see the Night Riveria for what can be achieved with the Mk3 sleeper and lounge vehicles) and were therefore able to achieve a better balance between trying to appeal to tourists after an 'experience' and people who live and work somewhere between London and the Highlands who want an affordable, comfortable and effective means of travelling between the two?

The trouble is that refurbished Mk3s won't last forever - buying new ensured (at least some element of) the service for much longer.

Unfortunately the new stock was "Cheap As..."

As a first step some reclining seats that are actually comfortable enough for a little sleep, combined with aircon that can maintain a comfortable atmosphere would be a start (and possibly getting a drinks service in the seats before midnight).

Which is essentially what the Mk2s offered.

Did they? I found they were roasting hot at Euston, then freezing cold on the last bit to Fort Bill. The unique forced-air ventilation system just wasn't up to the job.

Whatever replaced them, the Mk2s had to go.

 

[Journeyman]

The trouble is that refurbished Mk3s won't last forever - buying new ensured (at least some element of) the service for much longer.

Unfortunately the new stock was "Cheap As..."



Did they? I found they were roasting hot at Euston, then freezing cold on the last bit to Fort Bill. The unique forced-air ventilation system just wasn't up to the job.

Whatever replaced them, the Mk2s had to go.

The existing rolling stock was actually in far worse condition than any of the bidders for it realised. It's just as well the winning bidder was the only one promising new rolling stock - I seriously doubt refurbishment was even remotely viable. The stock was in a far worse state than the Night Riviera vehicles.

The incoming management when Serco took over were genuinely shocked to find what a heap of junk they'd been given, and keeping the fleet going was a massive challenge. For a long time, there were short formations and vehicles locked out of use pretty much every night, and attempting to keep the service going while taking vehicles out for refurbishment would have been impossible. The corrosion issues were really serious as well.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Did they? I found they were roasting hot at Euston, then freezing cold on the last bit to Fort Bill. The unique forced-air ventilation system just wasn't up to the job.

Whatever replaced them, the Mk2s had to go.

I'm perhaps looking back with rose tinted spectacles but (and I'll admit this is subjective) I always managed a reasonable sleep in the Mk2 seated coach, certainly enough to do a day's work at the other end (two consecutive nights would be pushing it). Whilst the Mk 2s may not have been perfect, it beggars belief that the new coaches are worse, both for conditioning and seat comfort.

Completely agree the Mk2s were life expired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm perhaps looking back with rose tinted spectacles but (and I'll admit this is subjective) I always managed a reasonable sleep in the Mk2 seated coach, certainly enough to do a day's work at the other end (two consecutive nights would be pushing it). Whilst the Mk 2s may not have been perfect, it beggars belief that the new coaches are worse, both for conditioning and seat comfort.

Completely agree the Mk2s were life expired.

Surprises me that the aircon is an issue - that seems to be one thing CAF seem to have right. I've been on a fair few 195s and none of them had aircon trouble.

The seats I agree are rubbish - they are Fainsa 1st class seats, same as found in 80x, and you know what I think of 80x seating*. They should certainly have gone for something better, but I guess it's difficult to justify for a budget seated coach priced to compete in the same market as road coaches. FWIW, I've slept better on the Riviera with a pair of 2+2 seats, as I put my bag by the window and sort of curled up across both (this does, for someone my size, require a bit of contortionist ability ), than I ever did in a single seat on the Cally. I also recall once getting a decent kip lying across 4 seats and the aisle on an OeBB overnighter years ago...until the guard showed up, wasn't paying attention, tripped over my legs and went flying.

* Let's put it this way - I once plonked myself in 1st on an 80x intending to upgrade (Weekend First), and after only a few minutes decided it was not worth the money and moved to Standard. And that's with the Sophia.

 

[xotGD]

I was on the final run to Aberdeen with a Mark 2 seated coach. Cold all night, and I didn't get any sleep.

At least I could open the droplight to fully appreciate the pair of 73s, and I've always found the sound of the brakes rather soothing.

 

[nlogax]

Another note to self not to take the sleeper unless absolutely bloody necessary. Came down on the Lowlander last night, barely a wink of shut-eye in a classic room with the badly fitting / loose connecting door banging away in spite of me wedging my heavy case in front of it. And then there's the ever burning glow from the little light switches.

Needless to say I sleep brilliantly the night after a sleeper trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least I could open the droplight to fully appreciate the pair of 73s, and I've always found the sound of the brakes rather soothing.

Tread brake racket brings back good memories of knocking around Germany in Bm(235) compartment coaches in my yoof, but it's about as conducive to sleep as if they'd built the things as DMUs. Indeed in some ways worse, because you can "tune out" background noise, like aircraft engines, but not so much sudden noises.

 

[BRX]

I too found the tread brakes on the Mk2s soothing! I wouldn't call it a "racket".

 

[221129]

Came down on the Lowlander last night, barely a wink of shut-eye in a classic room with the badly fitting / loose connecting door banging away in spite of me wedging my heavy case in front of it. And then there's the ever burning glow from the little light switches.

I wonder if you had the same wall as I did on the North bound the night before! Same issue, annoying as anything!

 

[BRX]

The couple of times I did the Fort William portion from Fort William it went via Queen Street low level (set-down only) and it wasn't at a wholly anti-social hour in that direction (just after midnight as I recall) so could certainly be an option to maintain some sleeper link to London. Going in the other direction the question would be is it worth (and practical considering the limited passing points and high demand in the morning peak on the low level platforms) delaying the arrival into Fort William to give a slightly less early arrival into Glasgow. Certainly though I don't think it would be insurmountable to ditch a separate Glasgow service but still maintain at least some overnight link between Glagsow and London.

Worth bearing in mid the highlander leaves euston a couple of hours earlier than the lowlander, which may or may not be an issue for the Glasgow market.

 

[Journeyman]

Worth bearing in mid the highlander leaves euston a couple of hours earlier than the lowlander, which may or may not be an issue for the Glasgow market.

It could well be. Unless it's able to detach vehicles that people can then stay in until a reasonable time, you've got the problem of arrival at godawful o'clock. The FW passes through Queen Street Low Level at about 05.30.

 

[nlogax]

I wonder if you had the same wall as I did on the North bound the night before! Same issue, annoying as anything!

I've not experienced it before in a classic room..is this a case of them loosening up with usage? Or just a common design fault?

 

[JModulo]

I've not experienced it before in a classic room..is this a case of them loosening up with usage? Or just a common design fault?

I've had it a few times with the club room toilet/shower doors and often had to wedge a towel or toilet paper in place to stop them rattling about.

 

[221129]

I've not experienced it before in a classic room..is this a case of them loosening up with usage? Or just a common design fault?

I'm not sure, it's the first time it's been an issue for me on there tbh.

 

[CW2]

To summarise some of the thoughts in previous posts, might a revised timetable look something like:

Highlander, 2 portions ex Euston, one to Inverness, and the other to Fort William via Glasgow Queen Street Low Level.
Lowlander, 2 portions ex Euston, whole train to Edinburgh, one portion forward to Aberdeen via Fife.

I'm tempted to play a tune or two on this... how about:
The Highlander runs to Glasgow Central instead of Edinburgh, and performs the split there. It could also detach/attach a couple of sleepers there, to give more sociable boarding / alighting times.
The Lowlander would have no need to run via Carstairs, so runs direct to Edinburgh arr circa 06:45. After dividing and loco change the Fife / Aberdeen portion could depart about 07:05, to arrive in Aberdeen about 09:45.

There are further tunes to be played when you take into account electrification through to Stirling.

 

[Steve Harris]

If it would be feasible to use Mossend Yard with your suggestion, there are several routes that can be used for the Edinburgh portion, with the Aberdeen portion continuing via the Caledonian Main Line to Greenville Junction, then Falkirk Grahamston, Winchburgh Junction, Dalmeny, then as per existing route.

Likewise, the Inverness portion would go direct via the Caley to Stirling and as existing route. The Fort William can go various routes to Dalmuir via Queen Street or Central low level and as per existing route.

Pretty much what used to happen back in BR days, Circa 1980's.

I can remember the Euston - Inverness sleeper changing loco's in Mossend yard.

And the Euston - Fort William used to change loco's in Mossend and Queen St.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

And the Euston - Inverness used to change loco's in Mossend and Queen St.

I'd guess you mean Euston to Fort William!

 

[ainsworth74]

Worth bearing in mid the highlander leaves euston a couple of hours earlier than the lowlander, which may or may not be an issue for the Glasgow market.

Absolutely. Southbound isn't too bad as it's just after midnight and then you arrive into Euston shortly before 8am so it's possible to get a decent stretch of sleep. But northbound you're in a mess. Currently it calls at Glasgow at 0548 which is not really an ideal time to be getting of a train! So my question was more whether it would be considered to be worthwhile delaying by an hour or so (probably just wait more time at Edinburgh) meaning that you're calling around 0700 which is at least vaguely more reasonable. But it means delaying your arrival into Fort William close to 1100 and assumes that you can find a path up the West Highland line and that you don't cause problems at either Edinburgh or Glasgow by pottering around near the start of the morning peak! I don't know how to weigh those factors personally and I have no real argument one way or the other. My original post was just to point out that it would potentially be practical to ditch a separate Glasgow portion to and combine it with the existing Fort William, whether it would be a good idea is a different question!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could certainly see more uptake for the FW seats if it didn't involve the faff of changing coaches at 4am, with bikes too. Travellers to the mountains are often on a budget. The two extra coaches could still be added and used for day passengers, separating them from night passengers.

Absolutely. Southbound isn't too bad as it's just after midnight and then you arrive into Euston shortly before 8am so it's possible to get a decent stretch of sleep. But northbound you're in a mess. Currently it calls at Glasgow at 0548 which is not really an ideal time to be getting of a train! So my question was more whether it would be considered to be worthwhile delaying by an hour or so (probably just wait more time at Edinburgh) meaning that you're calling around 0700 which is at least vaguely more reasonable. But it means delaying your arrival into Fort William close to 1100 and assumes that you can find a path up the West Highland line and that you don't cause problems at either Edinburgh or Glasgow by pottering around near the start of the morning peak! I don't know how to weigh those factors personally and I have no real argument one way or the other. My original post was just to point out that it would potentially be practical to ditch a separate Glasgow portion to and combine it with the existing Fort William, whether it would be a good idea is a different question!

If it's a portion you could drop the coaches off there at 05whatever but not kick everyone off. Though I'm conscious that not respecting the "cabins are available until X" is a problem almost as bad as the Coach K "messroom" on the WCML, and you'd have to have something to haul them to Central, there's nowhere to park them up at Queen St LL.