Historical Bus Timetables - timetableworld.com

[carlberry]

Something that has always puzzled me about Crosville is there area prefix letters. Were they suppoed to coincide with geographical areas or not? I was once told that D was for Denbighshire, but that doesn’t quite fit with their routes as I remember them, certainly none of Shrewsbury (D55, D70. D74, D75, D77), Ellesmere (D55 and others), Oswestry (D53, D63, D70, D71 and others) have ever been in Denbighdhire though I can see how C and K could relate to Cheshire and F to Flintshire. However I’m then not sure how A, B, J or M would fit.

They were by area, however there was little meaning to most of them. It's something like:
A Flint
B Mold
C Chester
D Wrexham/Oswestry
E/G Wrexham
F Wirral
H Liverpool/Warringhton
J Runcorn
K Crewe
L Limited Stop
M Rhyl/Llandudno
N Bangor/Caernarvon
R Caernarvon/Porthmadog/Bleanau Ffestiniog
S Barmouth/Dolgellau/Aberystwyth
T Runcorn Busway
V Ex Vaggs Motors
X Express

 

[TheSel]

They were by area, however there was little meaning to most of them. It's something like:
A Flint
B Mold
C Chester
D Wrexham/Oswestry
E/G Wrexham
F Wirral
H Liverpool/Warringhton
J Runcorn
K Crewe
L Limited Stop
M Rhyl/Llandudno
N Bangor/Caernarvon
R Caernarvon/Porthmadog/Bleanau Ffestiniog
S Barmouth/Dolgellau/Aberystwyth
T Runcorn Busway
V Ex Vaggs Motors
X Express

May I recommend this website - much history about Crosville area route numbering.

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[40129]

Thank you both, Very interesting.

Couple of points re the ex-Vaggs routes:

V1 was joint with Midland Red (North) and was re-numbered in March 1986 as D70 (Crosville) and 971 (Midland Red (North)). The 971 was withdrawn in April 1987 and replaced with additional D70 journeys. AFAIK it's now Arriva's 70/70A

V2 was joint with Midland Red (North) until March 1986 when it was fully taken over by Midland Red (North) and renumbered 972. Like 971, 972 was withdrawn by Midland Red (North) in April 1987 and IIRC was picked up under tender by Owens. MiR(N) regained it c.18months later as 576 and it's since been operated by Williamsons, Arriva, Bryn Melyn and Arriva

 

[shawmat]

Timetable World has just completed its March 2021 release of timetables. Buses and trolleybus services are well represented, and the list includes several municipals.



The bus timetables added this month (oldest first) are:

• Newcastle Nov 1960 [Great Britain]
• Plymouth, S Devon May 1963 [Great Britain]
• Ribble Express May 1964 [Great Britain]
• Brighton Area Summer 1965 [Great Britain]
• Bradford City Transport Mar 1966 [Great Britain]
• Barrow In Furness Corporation Transport - 1971 [Great Britain]
• Tyne & Wear Apr 1981 [Great Britain]
• County Durham North May 1982 [Great Britain]
• County Durham South May 1982 [Great Britain]
• Hants & Dorset May 1982 [Great Britain]
• Tyne & Wear Mar 1985 [Great Britain]
• Great Britain Bus Timetable Ed. 7 Jun 1997
• Hereford & Worcester Jan 1997 [Great Britain]
• EYMS (East Yorkshire) June 2004 [Great Britain]
• London (TfL) bus maps 2006 [Great Britain]
• McGills Jun 2008 [Great Britain]
• Maps: W Yorks Metro 2006-2017 [Great Britain]
• Keighley 2014 [Great Britain]
• Gwynedd Jul 2015 [Great Britain]

The whole collection now stands at 661 items, all added in the last 6 months. We are very grateful to the two fans of the website who have helped with these additions, but more would be welcome. We have a good pipeline of railway timetables to add but would really like to work with more collectors of bus timetables who are willing to share.

Bus timetables on Timetable World

 

[Statto]

They were by area, however there was little meaning to most of them. It's something like:
A Flint
B Mold
C Chester
D Wrexham/Oswestry
E/G Wrexham
F Wirral
H Liverpool/Warringhton
J Runcorn
K Crewe
L Limited Stop
M Rhyl/Llandudno
N Bangor/Caernarvon
R Caernarvon/Porthmadog/Bleanau Ffestiniog
S Barmouth/Dolgellau/Aberystwyth
T Runcorn Busway
V Ex Vaggs Motors
X Express

E was used for East Cheshire, Macclesfield, Northwich not Wrexham, G was indeed Wrexham, but used for the Wrexham area works services, but yep there was little meaning to the system with the corresponding area, more a way of using the up alphabet.

Just to add, in 1979 services in the Wirral area were renumbered between 72 & 89


Just seen Wrexham used E for local services, i thought Wrexham was D, with G for works services.

 

[TheSel]

Just seen Wrexham used E for local services, i thought Wrexham was D, with G for works services.

Yes. Low numbered 'E' routes in the Wrexham locality until they were renumbered in or around 1972 to free up 'E' for the newly acquired ex North Western services. G generally Wrexham industrial services (i.e. to/from Wrexham Industrial Estate) and various Colliery operations, but also some schools and industrial services in the Oswestry area. For example, Ian Allan's 'British Bus Fleets 19' (Crosville) 1965 makes reference [inter-alia] to a G45: Oswestry - Ifton Colliery and a G66: Woodside (Post Office) - Oswestry (Middleton Road School).

 

[Ken H]

Timetable World has just completed its March 2021 release of timetables. Buses and trolleybus services are well represented, and the list includes several municipals.

View attachment 93323View attachment 93324

The bus timetables added this month (oldest first) are:

• Newcastle Nov 1960 [Great Britain]
• Plymouth, S Devon May 1963 [Great Britain]
• Ribble Express May 1964 [Great Britain]
• Brighton Area Summer 1965 [Great Britain]
• Bradford City Transport Mar 1966 [Great Britain]
• Barrow In Furness Corporation Transport - 1971 [Great Britain]
• Tyne & Wear Apr 1981 [Great Britain]
• County Durham North May 1982 [Great Britain]
• County Durham South May 1982 [Great Britain]
• Hants & Dorset May 1982 [Great Britain]
• Tyne & Wear Mar 1985 [Great Britain]
• Great Britain Bus Timetable Ed. 7 Jun 1997
• Hereford & Worcester Jan 1997 [Great Britain]
• EYMS (East Yorkshire) June 2004 [Great Britain]
• London (TfL) bus maps 2006 [Great Britain]
• McGills Jun 2008 [Great Britain]
• Maps: W Yorks Metro 2006-2017 [Great Britain]
• Keighley 2014 [Great Britain]
• Gwynedd Jul 2015 [Great Britain]

View attachment 93325View attachment 93326
The whole collection now stands at 661 items, all added in the last 6 months. We are very grateful to the two fans of the website who have helped with these additions, but more would be welcome. We have a good pipeline of railway timetables to add but would really like to work with more collectors of bus timetables who are willing to share.

Bus timetables on Timetable World

View attachment 93327

Municipal timetables are well under represented. Its not Matts fault, he can only publish stuff people are prepared to let be scanned. So if you have an old 1960's Salford timetable in your sock drawer, dig it out and talk to Matt! Please.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Municipal timetables are well under represented. Its not Matts fault, he can only publish stuff people are prepared to let be scanned. So if you have an old 1960's Salford timetable in your sock drawer, dig it out and talk to Matt! Please.

If I had one, I wouldn't keep it with my socks! Any printed timetable (or proper book) is far too precious for such indignity.

I'm not sure how much municipal stuff there is out there. The NBC/SBG companies all seemed to produce comprehensive area timetables and to do so on a regular basis - once or twice per year. Prior to the creation of the NBC, the big companies certainly produced similar books - Crosville, Midland Red, The Mighty Ribble I have examples of. At some point, and I'm not sure if it was an NBC HQ policy instruction, but the production of comprehensive books seemed to cease in favour of individual leaflets. The latest Ribble book I have seen is from 1976. This will prove a problem for timetable historians in future as you can never be certain whether you have the full set of individual leaflets - unless an index was available.

Municipal companies did produce comprehensive books but seemingly not on a regular basis. Things didn't change as much back then! Salford, being a larger operator, may have produced more frequently than, say, Ramsbottom. Municipal books do not appear on Ebay as frequently as NBC books so either people didn't keep them at the time, or far fewer were produced per year meaning that they do not re-appear as collections get disposed of. Stylistically, many of the Municipal books appear very similar in terms of size, typeface etc. Only the names (obviously) and the colour of the card cover differ.

 

[Taunton]

When I was in Edinburgh in the 1970s, the Edinburgh/Lothian city bus operation, which seems to get lots of positive mentions for other aspects, and who produced a useful folded map which for many substituted for a citywide street map, never did timetable books. They had individual leaflets, one per route, generally just one sheet folded over and probably done on a photocopier, showing little more than departures from the termini and Princes Street, and the only place to get them was the main enquiry office at Waverley, which had a rack with many boxes. However I never recall the complete set being there at one time, a few of the boxes were always empty. Anyone who was taking one of all of them was always given the Eagle Eye by the staff behind the counter, as if they had paid for them personally.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

When I was in Edinburgh in the 1970s, the Edinburgh/Lothian city bus operation, which seems to get lots of positive mentions for other aspects, and who produced a useful folded map which for many substituted for a citywide street map, never did timetable books. They had individual leaflets, one per route, generally just one sheet folded over and probably done on a photocopier, showing little more than departures from the termini and Princes Street, and the only place to get them was the main enquiry office at Waverley, which had a rack with many boxes. However I never recall the complete set being there at one time, a few of the boxes were always empty. Anyone who was taking one of all of them was always given the Eagle Eye by the staff behind the counter, as if they had paid for them personally.

In the 2000's, I was on holiday in Edinburgh and wished to buy one of those route/street maps from the office on the south end of Waverley Bridge. I had to force the bloke to sell me one, for whatever reason he was extremely reluctant to do so, even though (I assume) the cover price covered the production cost. Having said that there were (seem to still be) a very good operator.

I can understand the 'eagle eye on the full set picker' attitude, as they may well pick the whole lot, select the few they actually want from the comfort of their home / hotel room, then dump the rest. I don't object to paying a fair price, even for photocopied sheets. One answer is to have some full sets ready made on/behind the counter and charge a nominal amount - saving the passenger the time and effort of picking them all individually.

 

[Ken H]

If I had one, I wouldn't keep it with my socks! Any printed timetable (or proper book) is far too precious for such indignity.

I'm not sure how much municipal stuff there is out there. The NBC/SBG companies all seemed to produce comprehensive area timetables and to do so on a regular basis - once or twice per year. Prior to the creation of the NBC, the big companies certainly produced similar books - Crosville, Midland Red, The Mighty Ribble I have examples of. At some point, and I'm not sure if it was an NBC HQ policy instruction, but the production of comprehensive books seemed to cease in favour of individual leaflets. The latest Ribble book I have seen is from 1976. This will prove a problem for timetable historians in future as you can never be certain whether you have the full set of individual leaflets - unless an index was available.

Municipal companies did produce comprehensive books but seemingly not on a regular basis. Things didn't change as much back then! Salford, being a larger operator, may have produced more frequently than, say, Ramsbottom. Municipal books do not appear on Ebay as frequently as NBC books so either people didn't keep them at the time, or far fewer were produced per year meaning that they do not re-appear as collections get disposed of. Stylistically, many of the Municipal books appear very similar in terms of size, typeface etc. Only the names (obviously) and the colour of the card cover differ.

Leeds produced one every 2-3 months. and quite a substantial book of about 100 pages. times & fares. but they were quite a big municipal. Bradford were the same.

the Barrow one I have seems to be an advertising book with bus times squeezed in between the adverts!

 

[MedwayValiant]

Municipal timetables are well under represented. Its not Matts fault, he can only publish stuff people are prepared to let be scanned. So if you have an old 1960's Salford timetable in your sock drawer, dig it out and talk to Matt! Please.

I'd be particularly happy if London Country were to appear on the site, and at present it doesn't feature at all. I know that I used to have a couple of London Country books from the 70s, and the reason I don't have them any more is that they fell apart.

Now, those were printed on newsprint and perfect bound, and neither thing contributes to long life. Did some companies use better paper and better binding than others, and it tends to be those better produced ones which are still around to be scanned? If so, then the current gaps may unfortunately remain as gaps.

Very happy to see that 1997 edition of Peter White's GBBTT by the way!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Leeds produced one every 2-3 months. and quite a substantial book of about 100 pages. times & fares. but they were quite a big municipal. Bradford were the same.

the Barrow one I have seems to be an advertising book with bus times squeezed in between the adverts!

Yes, I see a good number of LCT books up on Ebay - always makes me think of Lancaster rather than Leeds though.

It would be good to see nationwide coverage with a representative timetable from each of the NBC, SBG, PTE and Municipal companies, plus the major independents and London.

My head tends to categorise the big cities as PTE's rather than municipals, as that is how I have always known them. Particularly the Jaffa Cake buses of the PTE that forayed into NE Lancashire, I used to catch one to college everyday in Burnley (273/473 ex Bolton/Bury), with its b****y radio programme style advertising.

 

[Ken H]

I'd be particularly happy if London Country were to appear on the site, and at present it doesn't feature at all. I know that I used to have a couple of London Country books from the 70s, and the reason I don't have them any more is that they fell apart.

Now, those were printed on newsprint and perfect bound, and neither thing contributes to long life. Did some companies use better paper and better binding than others, and it tends to be those better produced ones which are still around to be scanned? If so, then the current gaps may unfortunately remain as gaps.

Very happy to see that 1997 edition of Peter White's GBBTT by the way!

There are some on the way.

 

[shawmat]

Timetable World has just completed its May release of rail, bus, and tram timetables. 95 new items were added this month, bringing the coverage to:

• 520 Timetables
• 240 Maps
• 268,594 Scans

Here is a small selection of bus/tram timetables added this time around. Click the images to open each timetable. There is also a search tool to look through the whole collection.

We rely on volunteers to add bookmarks to timetables. These new timetables are not yet indexed, and are available for you to select to work on via the Jobs page.


Leeds City Transport 1951 bus/tram timetable


Leeds City Transport 1963 route map


Burnley & Colne 1975
Hand-typed we think!


South Yorkshire PTE 1978
Other Passenger Transport Executive timetables were also added

Look out for my other post highlighting the railway timetables added at the same time.

 

[Ken H]

My dad used to buy the LCT bus maps when I was a kid. I used to love spreading them on the floor and thinking of the bus rides I could do. They were big. A shilling a go they were not cheap!
That map is mine. I scanned it on an ordinary flat bed scanner in loads of bits then used Microsoft Composite Editor (MCE) to 'stitch' the bits together to make a big image file. Matt told me about MCE - its free
Link to download page - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/product/computational-photography-applications/image-composite-editor/

On timetableworld, scroll down to find a list of routes and the roads they went on, and also an index of road names and the services that went on them.

Edit:- Microsoft Composite editor no longer available. May be available elsewhere.

 

[Class45]

I found the Microsoft Image Composite Editor on a download site called Softonic. Just had a quick play and scanned and stitched together this 1950s Devon General map of Torquay. Very easy to use.

 

[shawmat]

I found the Microsoft Image Composite Editor on a download site called Softonic. Just had a quick play and scanned and stitched together this 1950s Devon General map of Torquay. Very easy to use.

Thanks for sharing the link. Version 2.0.3 was proving elusive, but here it is...

Microsoft Image Composite Editor

Create panoramas the easy way

microsoft-image-composite-editor.en.softonic.com

I have NOT tested the download from this source so use it at your own risk!

 

[nw1]

Thanks for this. Have just seen that Hants and Dorset May 1982 for the Poole area is there.
Only had a brief look so far but striking that many of the routes are almost identical to those existing in the early to mid 90s (the 142/3/4 Poole to Swanage were still in existence in the mid 90s, perhaps later).

Would be particularly interested in Alder Valley, London Country, Southdown, Hants and Dorset/Wilts and Dorset/Hampshire Bus, and Bristol Omnibus / Badgerline timetables from about 1978-88 if anyone has any of those...

... continuing to look at that H+D timetable.... the X1 Bournemouth to Southampton was still, I think, running in some form in the early 90s.
A two-hourly service through the middle of the New Forest meant that places like Burley were much easier to reach on public transport.

Sadly all gone now... and people wonder why the New Forest has a traffic problem. We've lost a lot of these rural through routes in Hampshire in the past 20 years or so (can't remember when the X1 went but I think it was still going around 1995 or so, albeit as the X33 or something like that. The 52 through the Meon Valley, another great way to get into the middle of the countryside, was still running as the 7 in the summer of 2003 but again, barely in existence now).

 

[Statto]

Is anyone having the same issues i have clicking onto the Timetable World site, first i couldn't get on, kept getting, timed out notice, now i get the, your connection is not private notice

Tried to click on to the site, using a separate browser & still got the same, your connection is not private notice.

 

[Ken H]

Is anyone having the same issues i have clicking onto the Timetable World site, first i couldn't get on, kept getting, timed out notice, now i get the, your connection is not private notice

Tried to click on to the site, using a separate browser & still got the same, your connection is not private notice.

From TTW facebook page posted 17:48 yesterday 5/6/21
'The Timetable World website is temporarily unavailable.
One of the servers has developed a fault with the power supply. The engineer who built the various servers is on his way.
Sorry for the inconvenience.'

I think a new server has been got, and the software that manipulates the images is being loaded and configured. They think the old ones motherboard is bust.

 

[shawmat]

It is just a temporary issue, and there's a holding message on the website now. I'll repost once full service has been restored.

 

[Statto]

Understood.

 

[shawmat]

I promised to let you know when timetableworld.com is back. It is now, running on a different server

Sorry about the downtime and for the delay in restarting. (It took some time to accept that the old server was truly dead!)

 

[Deerfold]

This is a fascinating site - good to see it's back up. I hope to be able to help at some point as I do have a few timetable books (mostly for West Yorkshire or Calderdale) - some I have have already been scanned by other people, but Covid has resulted in a large increase in work for me and my books aren't currently easily accessible. I should have a couple of Thomas Cook European Railway Timetables too.

The only thing that seems to be a shame is it's difficult to look at a page at a time. Is there a reason it's presented as one huge sheet and is it possible to view it a page at a time?

 

[shawmat]

This is a fascinating site - good to see it's back up. I hope to be able to help at some point as I do have a few timetable books (mostly for West Yorkshire or Calderdale) - some I have have already been scanned by other people, but Covid has resulted in a large increase in work for me and my books aren't currently easily accessible. I should have a couple of Thomas Cook European Railway Timetables too.

The only thing that seems to be a shame is it's difficult to look at a page at a time. Is there a reason it's presented as one huge sheet and is it possible to view it a page at a time?

The images are zoomable. You pan and zoom to the page you want, either manually or using the bookmarks tool.

Timetables are rarely used in a linear fashion, even when in book form. With books, people flick, or use the index page. We judged that the same software tools as used by online maps would be a better fit for how timetables are typically used. Most of the books run to hundreds of pages, and it would really slow to navigate them if they were presented page by page. We also must make this work on hand-held devices which are increasingly popular. They have small screens, limited bandwidth, and rely on finger gestures for navigation.

Prove it to yourself. We provide links to the Italian railway timetable archive at https://timetableworld.com/fondazionefs. Each timetable is organised linearly. Then compare speed of navigation with one of Timetable World's Italian timetables at https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=fd31aca6-0232-4043-9131-13ad1c4fda5c. If you're not convinced, tell me why!

 

[Deerfold]

The images are zoomable. You pan and zoom to the page you want, either manually or using the bookmarks tool.

Timetables are rarely used in a linear fashion, even when in book form. With books, people flick, or use the index page. We judged that the same software tools as used by online maps would be a better fit for how timetables are typically used. Most of the books run to hundreds of pages, and it would really slow to navigate them if they were presented page by page. We also must make this work on hand-held devices which are increasingly popular. They have small screens, limited bandwidth, and rely on finger gestures for navigation.

Prove it to yourself. We provide links to the Italian railway timetable archive at https://timetableworld.com/fondazionefs. Each timetable is organised linearly. Then compare speed of navigation with one of Timetable World's Italian timetables at https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=fd31aca6-0232-4043-9131-13ad1c4fda5c. If you're not convinced, tell me why!

I've looked at a lot of these. I realise they are zoomable. I'm used to looking things up in large pdf files.
If an index says a timetables is on page 57, it's not immediately obvious where on one sheet that's going to be.

The Italian timetables you're comparing with don't do what I'm suggesting. They have a number of separate images and you have to select one at a time. I'm suggesting a perfectly standard multi-page pdf as the easiest way to navigate. This also makes it easier to find a size you like and stay at that size instead of having to zoom out and back in again to that level.

 

[Taunton]

I think we have to be grateful to @shawmat for what has been made available to all here; it's great reference material, nobody else has done anything like it, and you increasing see it linked to from all sorts of places across the web.

You can go on about IT optimisation for ever - I've made a long term professional career out of it!!

 

[shawmat]

I've looked at a lot of these. I realise they are zoomable. I'm used to looking things up in large pdf files.
If an index says a timetables is on page 57, it's not immediately obvious where on one sheet that's going to be.

The Italian timetables you're comparing with don't do what I'm suggesting. They have a number of separate images and you have to select one at a time. I'm suggesting a perfectly standard multi-page pdf as the easiest way to navigate. This also makes it easier to find a size you like and stay at that size instead of having to zoom out and back in again to that level.

Multi-page PDFs have to be downloaded in their entirety before they can be accessed - because they're regular files. I agree that PDFs are a universal standard, but that doesn't make them always the best solution. The data volumes make PDFs unworkable for slow connections and handheld devices, particularly when some of the books could be HUGE. You can look at timetables on archive.org to realise the limitations of PDFs.

The Timetable World website is designed to cover a whole range of users and use-cases - globally. The images are "tiled" so that you only download what you are looking at. That makes it fast, suitable for random browsing/surfing, as well as being able to to drill to detail. It's as fast when accessed from a winter cabin in northern Finland (yes, I've tested that) as at my desk in England.

 

[Ken H]

I've looked at a lot of these. I realise they are zoomable. I'm used to looking things up in large pdf files.
If an index says a timetables is on page 57, it's not immediately obvious where on one sheet that's going to be.

The Italian timetables you're comparing with don't do what I'm suggesting. They have a number of separate images and you have to select one at a time. I'm suggesting a perfectly standard multi-page pdf as the easiest way to navigate. This also makes it easier to find a size you like and stay at that size instead of having to zoom out and back in again to that level.

Have you read this?

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

(User guide to timetable world)