22nd February - Roadmap out of the pandemic, lifting of restrictions.

[Class 33]

I would question whether TOCs have a "right" to enforce compulsory mask wearing and social distancing if the government says that they are no longer necessary, and amends the regulations accordingly.

If a shop wishes to enforce compulsory mask wearing, people are entitled to take their custom elsewhere, as usually there is a choice of shops.

But this is not the case with public transport, which is why these wretched COVID Status Certificates will never be compulsory on buses and trains.

Come 21st June when these blasted social distancing and face mask wearing restrictions are due to be scrapped, that really should be it and supermarkets/shops, train/bus/coach operators, etc, etc will be no longer allowed to enforce these rules on their premises/vehicles. If it is the case though that businesses can optionally keep enforcing these restrictions if they so wish, then it is going to put a LOT of customers/passengers off from using these businesses/transport operators. I for one won't be using any supermarkets after 21st June if they still keep these nonsense restrictions going(along with their incredibly annoying PA messages going off every few minutes telling us we must wear face masks and socially distance), they can forget my custom! Same goes with coach and train operators, I won't be using them to travel with anymore(unless it's essential journeys I have to make and there are no alternatives). Many many people will be thinking the same as me!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I live in a University city with a significant East Asian student population. I remember how we all laughed and mocked the sight of new students wearing masks as they pottered about the place. We're not so sure about laughing now!

No you’re right we’re laughing at you now too

 

[philosopher]

I would question whether TOCs have a "right" to enforce compulsory mask wearing and social distancing if the government says that they are no longer necessary, and amends the regulations accordingly.

If a shop wishes to enforce compulsory mask wearing, people are entitled to take their custom elsewhere, as usually there is a choice of shops.

But this is not the case with public transport, which is why these wretched COVID Status Certificates will never be compulsory on buses and trains.

In practice I imagine TOC mask wearing policy will reflect the law or government guidance. If masks are not compulsory but advised, then TOC will probably have posters and annoucements telling passengers to wear them but that will be it.

The airlines I think will keep the mask rules for the longest. I seem to remember they insisted on them even before they were compulsory on public transport.

 

[PR1Berske]

In practice I imagine TOC mask wearing policy will reflect the law or government guidance. If masks are no compulsory but advised, then TOC will probably have posters and annoucements telling passengers to wear them but that will be it.

The airlines I think will keep the mask rules for the longest. I seem to remember they insisted on them even before they were compulsory on public transport.

I agree about airlines, you know I never thought about those. They may well keep the requirement for a while after.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yet aren’t the airlines also the ones that claim their HEPA system makes the aircraft the cleanest air place to be?

Lots of arguing both ends of an argument going on in this covid rule farce

Long risky Summer...

 

[Yew]

I can't stop you making that decision. I'm not demanding it upon you. I'm not saying I want this modified normal for ever. We need it for now. We need to keep cautious.

But the restrictions are still law. I can't make you follow the law. A private business can, and will. A TOC can, and will.

Cautious policy based on clear empirical evidence and robust cost benefit analysis, not throwing the country down the pan based on the baseless whims of the scared and superstitious.

 

[Richard Scott]

I live in a University city with a significant East Asian student population. I remember how we all laughed and mocked the sight of new students wearing masks as they pottered about the place. We're not so sure about laughing now!

So the masks worked well then?

 

[DannyMich2018]

Come 21st June when these blasted social distancing and face mask wearing restrictions are due to be scrapped, that really should be it and supermarkets/shops, train/bus/coach operators, etc, etc will be no longer allowed to enforce these rules on their premises/vehicles. If it is the case though that businesses can optionally keep enforcing these restrictions if they so wish, then it is going to put a LOT of customers/passengers off from using these businesses/transport operators. I for one won't be using any supermarkets after 21st June if they still keep these nonsense restrictions going(along with their incredibly annoying PA messages going off every few minutes telling us we must wear face masks and socially distance), they can forget my custom! Same goes with coach and train operators, I won't be using them to travel with anymore(unless it's essential journeys I have to make and there are no alternatives). Many many people will be thinking the same as me!

I understand the need to wear them and will wear one where one is necessary but I absolutely hate wearing face coverings. I can manage going Asda, the bank or Wilkos etc or a relatively short train journey but wouldn't fancy a long train journey having to wear one or 2 or so hours at the cinema or in a museum having to wear one. Still many outside wearing them although more so younger people now. I spent much of 2020 working from home so didn't use one, I really have admiration for people who have to work in one all day long!!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

NHS England have reported 196 people on mechanical ventilation this morning not been this low for over seven months. Hospitalisations also down another 83 today to stand at 1310 or 1.2% of all Englands hospital bed utilisation. Looks like the vaccine doing the job to me and whilst do want to be complacent we also need to take a more holistic approach and balance all medical and societal needs.

 

[kristiang85]

NHS England have reported 196 people on mechanical ventilation this morning not been this low for over seven months. Hospitalisations also down another 83 today to stand at 1310 or 1.2% of all Englands hospital bed utilisation. Looks like the vaccine doing the job to me and whilst do want to be complacent we also need to take a more holistic approach and balance all medical and societal needs.

It seems a long time since all this was to "save the NHS".

 

[MikeWM]

So how long for? When is the end date? What’s the criteria?

I've been asking exactly those questions for months now, whenever people opine (for some unknown reason) that restrictions should continue even after everyone that could benefit from vaccination, and chooses to do so, has had the opportunity.

I don't think I've got a single answer so far, never mind a *good* answer.

 

[kez19]

It seems a long time since all this was to "save the NHS".

As far as I am hearing according to the government ads on the radio its like "baby steps", one step at a time approach , plus it just feels as if its forever moving goalposts, the people in governments could promise us all gold but by the end of it they still keep it for themselves! Or as someone pointed out elsewhere its like dangling a carrot (animal of choice) and keep them going (or as it would end up being ending off a cliff or slaughterhouse!).

 

[liam456]

Reading Devi Sridhar's recent Guardian column, with the UK in a careful state of relative covid safety, she poses the question as to why Westminster's international travel policy has so many holes in it, in comparison to Scotland's totalitarian approach.

I think a sensible middle ground is what countries like Poland were/are? doing, where quarantine isn't in a hotel you have to pay an exorbitant sum for, but was still 'managed' at home (albeit though dystopian phone apps which tracked your every movement)

Available here if you'd like:

Britain won’t be safe from Covid-19 until people everywhere have been vaccinated | Coronavirus | The Guardian

This is the only way to prevent the emergence of more dangerous variants – and end the pandemic for good, says Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

amp.theguardian.com

 

[takno]

Reading Devi Sridhar's recent Guardian column, with the UK in a careful state of relative covid' safety, she poses the question as to why Westminster's international travel policy has so many holes in it, in comparison to Scotland's totalitarian approach.

I think a sensible middle ground is what countries like Poland were/are? doing, where quarantine isn't in a hotel you have to pay an exorbitant sum for, but was still 'managed' at home (albeit though distopian phone apps which tracked your every movement)

Available here if you'd like:

Britain won’t be safe from Covid-19 until people everywhere have been vaccinated | Coronavirus | The Guardian

This is the only way to prevent the emergence of more dangerous variants – and end the pandemic for good, says Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

amp.theguardian.com

Are people still reading her deranged ramblings? We get it, she has her very own pet First Minister, but surely the brighter 80% of the population must have cottoned on to the fact that she's a barely-rational extremist by now

 

[liam456]

Are people still reading her deranged ramblings? We get it, she has her very own pet First Minister, but surely the brighter 80% of the population must have cottoned on to the fact that she's a barely-rational extremist by now

You don't get to be chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh Uni for nothing, and while the variant stuff is probably overstated (she's not a virologist) the travel restriction stuff is still valid.

India was known to potentially present a problem to the UK long before it was added to the red list.

If you think she's bad, definitely do NOT look up Dr Eric Feigl-Ding up on twitter! That guy spends so long tweeting covid doomsday stuff I wonder how he has the time to be an epidemiologist....

 

[NorthOxonian]

If you think she's bad, definitely do NOT look up Dr Eric Feigl-Ding up on twitter! That guy speeds so long tweeting covid doomsday stuff I wonder how he has the time to be an epidemiologist....

That's because he isn't an epidemiologist - he's a nutritionist. Though I agree no-one should look him up; his scaremongering is deeply damaging (and often just blantantly false). He'll almost certainly write some tweet claiming the sky will fall down in the UK when we ease restrictions, but no-one will take him seriously.

 

[cuccir]

surely the brighter 80% of the population must have cottoned on to the fact that she's a barely-rational extremist by now

I wouldn't dissmiss her that way. She has undoubtedly called for tighter restrictions at times, but she's also been very vocal when restrictions are too tight. She's been particularly critical of people wanting to crackdown on outdoor mixing, and she's why Scotland maintained a free-pass on children mixing for under-12 play through the winter lockdowns where the rest of the country didn't (I think it was under 5 and never explicit that play was allowed?). I think disagree with her if you will but don't mistake her for a lockdown extremist becasue I don't think that's her.

 

[liam456]

I wouldn't dissmiss her that way. She has undoubtedly called for tighter restrictions at times, but she's also been very vocal when restrictions are too tight. She's been particularly critical of people wanting to crackdown on outdoor mixing, and she's why Scotland maintained a free-pass on under-12 play through the winter lockdowns where the rest of the country didn't. I think disagree with her if you will but don't mistake her for a lockdown extremist becasue I don't think that's her.

Exactly. I dismissed her as so, particularly around January but I've mellowed over time and changed my views on her somewhat. Here's a recent tweet of hers which I think is about right:

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1386687304341893120?s=20

It's ok to both recognise why restrictions to reduce mixing & save lives were important, and also acknowledge the harm they have caused, especially to young people, over the past year. We need to learn & prepare for the future so governments never have to make that choice again.

 

[takno]

I wouldn't dissmiss her that way. She has undoubtedly called for tighter restrictions at times, but she's also been very vocal when restrictions are too tight. She's been particularly critical of people wanting to crackdown on outdoor mixing, and she's why Scotland maintained a free-pass on children mixing for under-12 play through the winter lockdowns where the rest of the country didn't (I think it was under 5 and never explicit that play was allowed?). I think disagree with her if you will but don't mistake her for a lockdown extremist becasue I don't think that's her.

She's absolutely obsessed with elimination. She knows her audience well enough to realise that it wasn't popular to torture the under 12s in the face of overwhelming evidence of its pointlessness. At heart though she's a lockdown and elimination enthusiast who has very little interest in what she destroys in her unachievable quest.

Exactly. I dismissed her as so, particularly around January but I've mellowed over time and changed my views on her somewhat. Here's a recent tweet of hers which I think is about right:

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1386687304341893120?s=20

That's just laying the groundwork to say that lockdown was right, and we need to maintain expensive pointless restrictions (and large teams of precautionary epidemiologists) forever. Don't imagine for a second that that's mellowing, it's just positioning in the face of numbers which are resolutely failing to go her way.

 

[david1212]

I understand the need to wear them and will wear one where one is necessary but I absolutely hate wearing face coverings. I can manage going Asda, the bank or Wilkos etc or a relatively short train journey but wouldn't fancy a long train journey having to wear one or 2 or so hours at the cinema or in a museum having to wear one. Still many outside wearing them although more so younger people now. I spent much of 2020 working from home so didn't use one, I really have admiration for people who have to work in one all day long!!

One day last week at work we had we had a contractor in for around 3 hours who I was assisting. While as far as possible still keeping 2m distance I had to wear a mask. Up to this like you only shorter times in a shops and perhaps 45 mins total at a funeral. I've not been on public transport since September 2019.

My evening meal was something I have regularly.

Later in the evening I had an odd unpleasant but somehow familiar taste in my mouth. After a while the grey matter recalled wearing the mask ... bingo !!

This cements what I've said since last July that until they cease to be compulsory unless absolutely essential I will not take a long train journey, visit a museum or similar etc.

 

[bramling]

I've been asking exactly those questions for months now, whenever people opine (for some unknown reason) that restrictions should continue even after everyone that could benefit from vaccination, and chooses to do so, has had the opportunity.

I don't think I've got a single answer so far, never mind a *good* answer.

There seem to be three themes:

1) People who are genuinely bothered that either the vaccine isn’t 100% effective, or that a new strain is going to emerge which subverts the vaccine.

2) People who think *everyone* should be vaccinated before things open up

3) People who want to big all this up in order to maintain the elements of their current lifestyle which they find agreeable. I think we all know what that is, so I’m not going to repeat it!

I can get the first one to a point, but equally such people need to realise that the logical conclusion is permanent lockdown, which isn’t viable. The second ones I think are just plain daft, and I would be breaking forum rules to put into words my feelings on the third group!

A lot of people seem to pay little regard to the wider consequences of all this, which I find rather selfish.

I am picking up a vibe that there is a core of people who seem to feel that the “new normal” (a term I despise in itself) is hibernation every winter. I suspect that we are going to find an element of pressure for this every time NHS admissions rise, as they do every winter. This needs to be strongly resisted, I for one do not want a way of life where we hibernate under a bed of restrictions every year from November to May.

 

[Bantamzen]

Other cultures – I think of Eastern Asia – wear masks as part of their lives without any question or protest. It's fascinating watching our culture lose its collective mind over it.

Oh boy not this one again. If you had bothered to dive into some of these threads as previously suggested, you would understand a little more why masks are more prevalent in some Eastern Asia countries. You see in places like Japan for example, taking time off work is considered impolite, even unacceptable. So in response Japanese society adapted to this by adopting masks not so much to "protect others", but to allow themselves to continue working without the shame of taking time off whilst giving the impression of helping others. Of course the huge elephant in the room is that colds, flus, and even covid continue to be spread even with mass mask compliance. A bit of a nuisance for that argument.

Unfortunately all this pseudo-alturism comes with a price. Having already got a culture of very long working weeks, the added pressure of not daring to take time away to recover from illnesses has left deep psychological scars on Japanese people. Japan has a serious mental health crisis, depression and anxiety is rife, as sadly is suicide. Ever wonder why so many stations on the Japanese rail network have barriers on platforms? One of the main reasons is to deter people from throwing themselves in front of trains, it was/is that big a problem.

Is it still fascinating?

 

[Yew]

Reading Devi Sridhar's recent Guardian column, with the UK in a careful state of relative covid' safety, she poses the question as to why Westminster's international travel policy has so many holes in it, in comparison to Scotland's totalitarian approach.

I think a sensible middle ground is what countries like Poland were/are? doing, where quarantine isn't in a hotel you have to pay an exorbitant sum for, but was still 'managed' at home (albeit though distopian phone apps which tracked your every movement)

Available here if you'd like:

Britain won’t be safe from Covid-19 until people everywhere have been vaccinated | Coronavirus | The Guardian

This is the only way to prevent the emergence of more dangerous variants – and end the pandemic for good, says Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

amp.theguardian.com

There's no evidence that quarantine is routinely effective at preventing the spread of the virus, and even so, we have large proportions of the population vaccinated, so infections are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

 

[Richard Scott]

Reading Devi Sridhar's recent Guardian column, with the UK in a careful state of relative covid' safety, she poses the question as to why Westminster's international travel policy has so many holes in it, in comparison to Scotland's totalitarian approach.

I think a sensible middle ground is what countries like Poland were/are? doing, where quarantine isn't in a hotel you have to pay an exorbitant sum for, but was still 'managed' at home (albeit though distopian phone apps which tracked your every movement)

Available here if you'd like:

Britain won’t be safe from Covid-19 until people everywhere have been vaccinated | Coronavirus | The Guardian

This is the only way to prevent the emergence of more dangerous variants – and end the pandemic for good, says Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

amp.theguardian.com

See in first line says emergence of more dangerous variants, crying wolf again? We've had enough of this one and has come to nothing so far.

 

[35B]

There's no evidence that quarantine is routinely effective at preventing the spread of the virus, and even so, we have large proportions of the population vaccinated, so infections are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

No evidence? I'm not sure what the experiences of places like Australia or New Zealand are if not evidence of how a quarantine based approach can work to contain spread.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

No evidence? I'm not sure what the experiences of places like Australia or New Zealand are if not evidence of how a quarantine based approach can work to contain spread.

It only works well in these two places because they are both isolated from the rest of the world (particularly NZ) and they both have small, spread out populations. Yes there is some densely populated areas in the major cities, but they are a minority compared to here in the UK and Europe. Also, they don't get much tourism compared to Europe, Asia and the USA.

 

[Bantamzen]

No evidence? I'm not sure what the experiences of places like Australia or New Zealand are if not evidence of how a quarantine based approach can work to contain spread.

The virus still gets through doesn't it though? Yes they have gone down the road of almost complete isolation, but they have failed to eliminate the virus, which was pretty much their aim. If their strategies really worked there would be no need for any further lockdowns, yet Australia in particular seems to have them with monotonous regularity. And of course they have yet to figure out any kind of strategy to get out of isolation.

 

[jumble]

I am somewhat surprised that more people haven't been doing the testing (although you don't know how many aren't logging results) . I have, and will, be getting a couple of packs - mainly on the basis that Covid Passports are coming and testing is going to be a part of our lives for a while so may we well get some while they are still free. Absolutely no intention to use unless required though

So you will take a test.
Upload the result
The Covid passport will then be used to "prove" to some idiots who are not thinking very hard about what they are doing that you have tested negative when in reality it proves nothing except you uploaded a result.
Pubs and clubs etc might as well cut out the middle man and simply ask you if you have tested negative.

 

[MikeWM]

So you will take a test.
Upload the result
The Covid passport will then be used to "prove" to some idiots who are not thinking very hard about what they are doing that you have tested negative when in reality it proves nothing except you uploaded a result.
Pubs and clubs etc might as well cut out the middle man and simply ask you if you have tested negative.

The point is to get people accustomed to the 'behaviour change' - that instead of being allowed to do whatever you like, you can only do the things your phone says you are 'allowed' to do, and you have to be prepared to show that to every minor functionary on demand. Exactly like as in China.

The fact that there are trivial ways around the system - for now - doesn't matter, as that isn't what they are trying to achieve yet. The holes can be filled in after everyone gets used to it and accepts these appalling restrictions on freedom as 'normal'.

 

[jumble]

The point is to get people accustomed to the 'behaviour change' - that instead of being allowed to do whatever you like, you can only do the things your phone says you are 'allowed' to do, and you have to be prepared to show that to every minor functionary on demand. Exactly like as in China.

The fact that there are trivial ways around the system - for now - doesn't matter, as that isn't what they are trying to achieve yet. The holes can be filled in after everyone gets used to it and accepts these appalling restrictions on freedom as 'normal'.

I hope you are wrong and more people will resist this nonsense as I fully intend to do.
I can get quite creative if I wish to be without breaking any laws and without anyone being able to do much about it.
ie
disrupt the checking process by being a noisy nuisance at the " ihre pappier bitte" check point

sneak in by the back door and avoid the check point altogether

although as I have said before I believe that commercial premises will soon get fed up of people behaving like I intend to do and just give up

etc etc