Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[robbeech]

Aren't the Government taking the revenue risk during the pandemic and paying TOCs a flat fee for running the trains?

Yes, in a round about way, which makes it worse. Their operation is already (justifiably in my opinion) being paid for by the tax payer, but there’s still a focus on maximising additional revenue.

 

[AdamWW]

With no end date in sight, that would be completely pointless. "You can use your tickets at a later date, but we have no clue when that will be".

Why?

It's what happened to plenty of people with event tickets for things that were cancelled due to Covid.

The number of passengers that will decide a week later that they still want to make the trip is very, very minimal.

And your evidence for that is?

 

[urpert]

Has the GW Society at Didcot offered a Castle and their various stock?

There was one on the turntable yesterday… wondered if they were standing up the S******* R******

 

[87electric]

800109 seems to be on this defect list. Surely the lowest mileage of all these units as well considering its history and possibly raises a few more questions.

 

[bengley]

800109 seems to be on this defect list. Surely the lowest mileage of all these units as well considering its history and possibly raises a few more questions.

The poster who posted the list clarified the units listed are stopped for reasons other than just cracking, so it's probably still stopped following the crash

 

[Emaharg]

No, but he might be looking at a way to get Class 50 onto a service

I'm just amazed it took 27 pages to mention a Class 50 . Shame there are only about 3 which are main line certified.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The poster who posted the list clarified the units listed are stopped for reasons other than just cracking, so it's probably still stopped following the crash

800109 Back into service on Monday I believe.

 

[IanXC]

Employers certainly should be making environments as "Covid-safe" as possible. However, the scheme described above seems to be a rather extreme approach. Certainly a huge amount more cautious than anything I've come across myself at work, or what you will see if you visit a shop or pub.

From a practical point of view, the risk of contracting Covid is really rather low at the moment.

Given the lack of units for other work I do wonder whether drivers who sign 387s couldn't be bubbled with drivers who sign beyond Swindon, and likewise Conductors and TMs. I suppose the big question is how many Conductors actually sign 387s at GWR?

 

[westv]

Probably already mentioned but Hull Trains website says they are back to normal.

 

[millemille]

So much for “friction stir welding” or is it not the existing welds which have failed??

I'd say - having been to the Hitachi factory in Japan and seen FSW first hand - that it is unlikely the welds in the areas where cracking is reported are FSW and more likely to be "traditional" MIG or TIG.

 

[anthony263]

Given the lack of units for other work I do wonder whether drivers who sign 387s couldn't be bubbled with drivers who sign beyond Swindon, and likewise Conductors and TMs. I suppose the big question is how many Conductors actually sign 387s at GWR?

Seen some posts on Facebook saying gwr got about 6 conductors trained for the 387s West of didcot. The way things are going gwrs management are likely scrambling to get every train they can.into service if possible

 

[HST274]

Two IETs sat in the sidings next to Shrub Hill. I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't been checked but too risky to carry passengers.

 

[father_jack]

Given the lack of units for other work I do wonder whether drivers who sign 387s couldn't be bubbled with drivers who sign beyond Swindon, and likewise Conductors and TMs. I suppose the big question is how many Conductors actually sign 387s at GWR?

Drivers won't have handled the units with passengers onboard west of Didcot and bar platform 3 at Swindon the platform operations probably won't have been risk assessed.

 

[py_megapixel]

Two IETs sat in the sidings next to Shrub Hill. I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't been checked but too risky to carry passengers.

Or that they haven't managed to examine them yet.

I think if a check had concluded that they were safe to run, GW management would be scrambling to get them in service!

 

[hwl]

So much for “friction stir welding” or is it not the existing welds which have failed??

Friction Stir tend to be used for long seam welds as the surfaces effectively have to be flat which doesn't really apply to the areas where the problems are.
While FS might be used for the majority of weld distance, other techniques are used where needed and where FS can't.

...it is unlikely the welds in the areas where cracking is reported are FSW and more likely to be "traditional" MIG or TIG.

Completely agree

 

[Skymonster]

No point in giving false hope, that would be contemptuous.

The only thing that’s contemptuous is the way the railway deals with the people who pay for it.

• Refusing to allow customers to use tickets on a later date / different train when the service the customer booked is not provided - contemptuous - no customer should be required to pay any more than they have already paid (or cost them anything more) to deliver the service they paid for, when they decide to use the service. And no customer should be stranded without financial help (in terms of paying for taxis or hotels)
• Not allowing 387s to run beyond Didcot / Swindon if the only thing stopping it is an “agreement” - contemptuous - set aside the agreement until the problem is over and the 800s are back
• Insisting loading on trains / buses are social distanced - contemptuous - allow them to be loaded to full capacity and let the customers decided whether they want to use them. And if LSL / DB / ROG etc have route-cleared stock and drivers bring them in and get people moving again
• Denying the use of charter / hire in stock because of things like PRM - contemptuous - this is not the time for such niceties, the need is to get as many people as possible to where they need to go as soon as possible
• Not putting staff together in cabs for route learning or conducting which might allow more trains to run, sooner - contemptuous - this isn’t January, its May and things are going well so a week isn’t going to make any difference

But no, as usual in times of difficultly the railway falls back to doing what’s easiest for itself rather than for its customers. DfT and unions have a part to play too - rather than relying on the rulebook, they need to allow a bit more flexible during a crisis and not use petty rules as an obstacle to providing service where it is safe to do so.

 

[syorksdeano]

Scotrail have now removed some trains due to cracks

Cracks found on several ScotRail electric trains after urgent safety checks

Several ScotRail trains have been found to have hairline cracks as part a widespread safety investigation also affecting other operators such as LNER, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

 

[LordCreed]

Why?

It's what happened to plenty of people with event tickets for things that were cancelled due to Covid.



And your evidence for that is?

With the exception of those on this forum (myself included), most use the train to travel from A to B. Those that have work, interviews, doctors appointments, holidays etc will have no use travelling in a week's time.

Sure, some leisure travellers may be happy making the same trip in two weeks time, but is it really wise to encourage all of those passengers to travel at the same time? Certainly not in the current climate, and GWR would equally be blamed for allowing significantly overcrowded trains.

 

[HST274]

Scotrail have now removed some trains due to cracks

Cracks found on several ScotRail electric trains after urgent safety checks

Several ScotRail trains have been found to have hairline cracks as part a widespread safety investigation also affecting other operators such as LNER, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

Hitachi are probably starting to tremble a little. That's another fleet of trains they made potentially at risk

 

[syorksdeano]

Hitachi are probably starting to tremble a little. That's another fleet of trains they made potentially at risk

Certainly not a good weekend for Hitachi, and I have no doubt it will cause problems for any future orders

 

[squizzler]

The IET groundings will make for a good episode of Paddington 24/7 next year.

While FS might be used for the majority of weld distance, other techniques are used where needed and where FS can't.

Did they get Keith from the garage down the road to attach the yaw damper brackets?

 

[Jamesrob637]

OK, so what should GWR have done better then, given the cirumstances and short notice?

Limit them to 100kmh or something. Think the Germans did that with ICE after the tragic Eschede disaster (not as many Neubaustrecken* back then so most journeys were along classic tracks or they could go slower on the Neubaustrecken so everything was equal)

*High speed line.

 

[800001]

800109 Back into service on Monday I believe.

It isn't.

 

[syorksdeano]

Limit them to 100kmh or something. Think the Germans did that with ICE after the tragic Eschede disaster (not as many Neubaustrecken* back then so most journeys were along classic tracks or they could go slower on the Neubaustrecken so everything was equal)

*High speed line.

Would they be able to do that? After all are the cracks caused by speed or other factors?

 

[AdamWW]

With the exception of those on this forum (myself included), most use the train to travel from A to B. Those that have work, interviews, doctors appointments, holidays etc will have no use travelling in a week's time.

Sure, some leisure travellers may be happy making the same trip in two weeks time, but is it really wise to encourage all of those passengers to travel at the same time? Certainly not in the current climate, and GWR would equally be blamed for allowing significantly overcrowded trains.

No don't follow that.

Your argument is that as most people wouldn't want such a facility, is is therefore correct to deny it to those few who do?

And then you argue that actually enough people would want to defer their trip to cause dangerous overcrowding (on trains that are supposed to be reservation compulsory).

 

[Killingworth]

Unless there's some reason the GWML track is much worse than the EC, the difference in availability between the two operators does seem to suggest how bad it is correlates with how long the unit has been in service - IIRC LNER didn't even start operating theirs until GWR had almost finished the introduction. Hull Trains were even later and they're back to normal

Which means all units will eventually be needing remedial work so this issue is going to be with us for some time. Organising things at 4 am on a Saturday morning was just the beginning.

It's clearly going to take days to establish how best to fix units, how many, when and where. Presumably every one over time.

In the meantime contingency timetables need preparing and assistance drawn from practical alternative sources. Extra stops and route extentions by XC are relatively easy. There will be ways other stock can be reallocated nationwide given post Covid changed loading patterns.

A longer term recovery plan takes time to coordinate. I have the greatest sympathy for those currently trying to do that against a back drop of angry passengers and well meaning enthusiasts all with good ideas!

 

[millemille]

... I have no doubt it will cause problems for any future orders

I'd suggest it's premature to say that. Mistakes happen all the time, not just in the rail industry, but it is the way in which Hitachi deal with the problem that will be the mark of them. They need to be given a reasonable period to get to work before doom is forecast.

 

[LordCreed]

Refusing to allow customers to use tickets on a later date / different train when the service the customer booked is not provided - contemptuous - no customer should be required to pay any more than they have already paid (or cost them anything more) to deliver the service they paid for, when they decide to use the service. And no customer should be stranded without financial help (in terms of paying for taxis or hotels

This is standard practice across many industries, and regardless of your thoughts on the practice, it is not just the railway at fault.

If I purchased a new TV, and the store had no other TVs, they'd offer you a refund and tell you to try and buy another one in the future.

Not allowing 387s to run beyond Didcot / Swindon if the only thing stopping it is an “agreement” - contemptuous - set aside the agreement until the problem is over and the 800s are back

So stuff like safety cases, dispatch risk assessments etc should just be totally ignored? Likewise the number of drivers that sign the route and traction is very minimal as no HSS driver signs any form of DOO stock. Only a very limited number of Paddington and Swindon drivers sign the route and traction. What trains would you like to cancel to free these drivers up for your service?

Insisting loading on trains / buses are social distanced - contemptuous - allow them to be loaded to full capacity and let the customers decided whether they want to use them. And if LSL / DB / ROG etc have route-cleared stock and drivers bring them in and get people moving again

And then wait for GWR to appear in the news for cramming services and being unsafe that way? Regardless they cannot win, but at least this way they're not increasing the risk to their passengers.

Denying the use of charter / hire in stock because of things like PRM - contemptuous - this is not the time for such niceties, the need is to get as many people as possible to where they need to go as soon as possible

Of course, that minor issue of safety.

Not putting staff together in cabs for route learning or conducting which might allow more trains to run, sooner - contemptuous - this isn’t January, its May and things are going well so a week isn’t going to make any difference

Refer to previous points. Perhaps if it's on a volunteer basis then I'd agree.

 

[millemille]

It's clearly going to take days to establish how best to fix units, how many, when and where. Presumably every one over time.

Days?

Try months or even years.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Would they be able to do that? After all are the cracks caused by speed or other factors?

I heard speed was a limiting factor. I actually meant 160kmh but then the ICE has a much higher maximum speed so maybe it should be half of the design speed which I think is 230kmh for the Azuma series.