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Passenger Complaint regarding Gender

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WestRiding

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*If* LNER any action has taken any action against the train manager, then I am thoroughly disgusted - a totally innocent (and probably really decent, given his friendly welcome) train manager facing potential discipline as a result of his employer kneeling down to a hypocritical (see post #14) prat who decides to publicly shame him all because a friendly greeting is considered "unacceptable" by today's inconceivable standards (it really isn't).

Should I omit saying "good morning" to everyone when I get to the stables this morning in case it "offends" someone? "I'm not going to say good morning back to you because it's uninclusive and clearly does not apply to me as I'm actually having a bad morning."
Could not agree more. Some people really, really need to give their head a shake. Doesn't help that the RMT encourages such behavior. If only people could see, that stuff like this, actually damages the cause for more inclusive rights. Offence is taken. Not given.
 
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LSWR Cavalier

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'Guys and Gals' or better 'Gals and Guys' is a cheery phrase once used by an infamous entertainer, it should be reclaimed.

I was told 'guys' now means 'people' including females, is that right?
 

Failed Unit

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Could not agree more. Some people really, really need to give their head a shake. Doesn't help that the RMT encourages such behavior. If only people could see, that stuff like this, actually damages the cause for more inclusive rights. Offence is taken. Not given.
Let us image a member of train crew was formally disapplied for the announcement, they would soon be out on strike to get it struck off.
 

Iskra

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'Guys and Gals' or better 'Gals and Guys' is a cheery phrase once used by an infamous entertainer, it should be reclaimed.

I was told 'guys' now means 'people' including females, is that right?
It can be used as a gender neutral pronoun, yes.

However, only the person speaking the word knows who exactly they are referring to, and it is still a term that could cause any non-males to be offended should they be of that disposition.
 

AlterEgo

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So having found out a bit more background to the story, the complainant was throwing their toys out the pram after being denied a free ride.
I dunno, I think if you’re going to make that sort of allegation it needs to be substantiated.
 

ChrisC

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It can be used as a gender neutral pronoun, yes.

However, only the person speaking the word knows who exactly they are referring to, and it is still a term that could cause any non-males to be offended should they be of that disposition.
I would certainly rather hear someone say ‘Good morning ladies and gentlemen’ than hearing someone say ‘Hi guys’.

It’s a good example of the way that use of language has changed over the years and I know a lot of the older generation, especially non males, are not happy about being called guys. My mother, as her dementia progressed, got very offended and disturbed, if for example we were in a restaurant and the person serving us addressed us all as guys. She saw it definitely as a male term and that she wasn’t a guy.

I’m male, early 60’s, and not offended by it, but I do find it very irritating. On tv programmes these days presenters on country programmes even call animals guys. I’ve even heard plants called guys on gardening programmes. I never said anything, but before I retired and I was teaching, it used to irritate me when younger teachers and sports coaches etc came in and addressed my class of 6 year olds as guys. I know of a number of older teachers who like me are irritated by it. It’s probably just a slow modern change in the use of language and another 20 years time no one will even question it. You even hear parents addressing their own children as guys. It’s probably something I’ve just got to learn to live with like everyone saying hi or hiya to me instead of hello.
 

Gemz91

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I'm surprised on here by how many people consider "ladies and gentlemen" to be out dated now-a-days. I don't do many announcements at work, but when I do, I will always start "ladies and gentlemen". Gives people time for their brains adjust to listen to the announcement.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I would just like to inform you that this train..."

Seems much more friendly, and gives time for the passengers to listen, rather then just;

"I would like to inform you this train"......

But the way the person has gone about it in the Tweet is ridiculous and will more likely get people's backs up then have a positive effect. I was talking to a couple of 20 year olds last year and they were surprised to hear that when I left school as a 16 year old in 2001 we had never been taught about same sex relationships at school. We'd been taught about heterosexual relationships, but never the same sex. "Gay" was still a dirty word. I remember as a 17 year old at college, the first, and only lad to come out as a homosexual, the gossip, talking behind his back. He was literally, the only gay in the village (although it was actually quite a large city centre college).

Then at Uni, in 2004 (it was a small uni), the one boy, Jack, who lived in our halls of residence, who started the process of becoming a women. It was strange. Weird. Unusual. Not weird because it was wrong. Weird because non of us had seen its before, we didn't know what to expect, how to talk to them. Would they want a pint of bitter or cocktail? I'm not saying all transgender people are homosexuals too, it's up to them as they identify. But what I am trying to say, that even as recent as 20 years ago, the education system did not teach about same sex relationships and the idea of changing gender was reserved for late night channel 5 documentaries and identifying as someone outside all gender boundaries, well, it just wasn't a thing.

But its great people can identify as what they want and how they want now. But, let us oldies adjust and catch up. I was talking to a friend last year, who's child I had known as a son growing up, was now known as Amy. I was stumbling for words, didn't know what to say, but she agreed with me, that when she was a child, this just didn't happen. But Amy was one of 12 teenagers in her school who identified as a the opposite gender to what they were born as.

The person in the Tweet how ever, just comes across as aggressive. Like the stereotypical street Evangelist of the 1990's, who will stand on the street corner, proclaiming the news of the Gospel, telling you that you must listen, and that you will indeed listen. But people will walk past, ignore them, chunter to their friends about how they are trying to force their opinions upon others, when all they want to do is pick up their meal deal from Boots.

The only way things will change is by education. But how can you educate 40 year old's? I was in Wickes not long ago. I was served by a person who wore a badge "my pronoun is she/her." I thought they had a lot of nerve to wear that badge, especially in a place like a DIY store that is quite a macho environment. I was there for quite a while, so struck up conversation with the lady. Not about her badge, but the books I had just picked up from the charity book shelves they had in store. When I got home, sat down with my cup of tea, I decided to Google why they were wearing the badge.

Deep down I wanted to be mad, I know I did. I wanted to curse them for forcing their opinion upon me. They were either a born a man and are therefore a man. Or born a women, therefore are a women. Non of this fancy, dancy modern day changing gender milarky. I'm not going to wear a badge that says I'm a man, when quite clearly I am a man. I have mans name. Stubble. Built like a man. Have an Adams Apple. Why do I need to wear a badge to tell others that. Can I wear a badge that says I identify as a bin? If not why not?

But I sat down, punched it into Google and it made sense. People wear pronoun badges to take the awkwardness away. Make it alright to ask. And, you know what, I appreciate that. That day when I was in the DIY store, hand on heart, I would have assumed I was talking to a man. It took the awkwardness away when I said to my daughter "show the lady what game you are playing". It made it simple for me. Saved me making a fool of myself. But they weren't telling me that I need to wear a pronoun badge. I can if I want, but I don't have to. And that's what is important. They wore a badge to take the awkwardness away from me, but didn't expect me to wear a badge in return.

I might have been the only person that week that the lady in the DIY store had an effect on. But it was a positive effect. Since then I've told others, explained to my partner why people wear those badges, stuck up for the person on TV in the mess room who has a pronoun on the bottom of the screen. But by doing that, I'm doing my small part to help educate others. I'm by no means a martyr to the cause, but from one simple gesture of a friendly person wearing a pronoun badge, others are being educated in what is, quite frankly a minefield to us oldies.

It goes back to the street Evangelist. I know I've been there. The message of an Evangelist and that of the person in this tweet is very different. But the process of getting that message across is the same. If you stand and shout, force others to accept your way, they won't. Education is needed. But it's how other's that are educated that is key. Just be normal and others will listen and learn.

It has challenged me. Will I keep saying "ladies and gentlemen" in future? I hope not. It does seem normal to me, but as others have said, normal changes.

It does make me wonder, in 30 years time will we look back, and remember the time when "ladies and gentlemen" was the norm, just like 1960's Britain when land lords would advertise rooms as "no blacks" and it was just accepted? Makes me wonder what the future holds.

Think I might have lost my point in here somewhere but hope it makes some sense!
 

roversfan2001

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Pronoun Twitter people doing Pronoun Twitter things. There is no concept of 'genuine mistake' to them, everything is a direct attack on their identity. They choose to attack people rather than attempt to educate them. There's nothing wrong with addressing a group of people as "ladies and gentlemen" really, it's a bit of filler to give people time to tune in to the announcement. Throwing your toys out of the pram and going "well I'm neither so I'm not listening" is incredibly childish and attempting to throw a colleague under the proverbial bus is appalling behaviour. LNER's reply is disappointing but they couldn't really say anything else without being castigated.
 

WestRiding

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Pronoun Twitter people doing Pronoun Twitter things. There is no concept of 'genuine mistake' to them, everything is a direct attack on their identity. They choose to attack people rather than attempt to educate them. There's nothing wrong with addressing a group of people as "ladies and gentlemen" really, it's a bit of filler to give people time to tune in to the announcement. Throwing your toys out of the pram and going "well I'm neither so I'm not listening" is incredibly childish and attempting to throw a colleague under the proverbial bus is appalling behaviour. LNER's reply is disappointing but they couldn't really say anything else without being castigated.
God help said person when they have to apply for a passport, driving licence or some insurance. M or F is usually the only choice.
 

Darandio

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God help said person when they have to apply for a passport, driving licence or some insurance. M or F is usually the only choice.

Pretty certain that hasn't been the case for years. Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Other (Enter Here).
 

Geezertronic

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Whatever offence was taken by the original tweeter has been lost in the way that they publicly dealt with it. The fact that they are a rep for RMT is even more galling. Probably best to ignore them
 

DynamicSpirit

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But if someone is offended by something, we should stop doing it. Because that's, you know, not being rude.

That sounds great until you think it through properly: In reality, it's a totally impractical approach because these days, so many people choose to be offended by almost anything they disagree with. I would suggest that it's better, if someone claims to be offended, that you should first consider whether or not it is reasonable for them to be offended. And I really don't think it's reasonable to get offended at someone using a common and widely understood phrase to greet people without any malicious intent.
 

Journeyman

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God help said person when they have to apply for a passport, driving licence or some insurance. M or F is usually the only choice.
And it shouldn't be. There's been a petition circulating recently to call for non-binary to be recognised as a legal gender. Sure, it's only an issue to a tiny number of people, but if it makes their lives easier, it's a good thing.

@Gemz91 - thanks for your post, I think you've eloquently addressed a lot of things there. I'm 46 now and was at high school between 1985 and 1992, when talking about homosexuality was actually illegal. Extraordinary when you think about it. Homophobic bullying was absolutely rife as well. Fast forward to when my teenage kids were at school (they've both left in the last couple of years) and it's another world in terms of acceptance and tolerance. I'm really impressed by their generation and their attitudes, especially because I'm seeking to unlearn the bigoted intolerance thrashed into me by spending over twenty years of my life in quite extreme churches. There's a demonstration of horrific prejudice for you, if you don't happen to fit into a neat box.

That sounds great until you think it through properly: In reality, it's a totally impractical approach because these days, so many people choose to be offended by almost anything they disagree with. I would suggest that it's better, if someone claims to be offended, that you should first consider whether or not it is reasonable for them to be offended. And I really don't think it's reasonable to get offended at someone using a common and widely understood phrase to greet people without any malicious intent.
If someone is offended by something I've said, however it was meant, it's reasonable for them to say so, and it's reasonable for me not to say it to them again. It's part of being a considerate person.
 

Ianno87

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And it shouldn't be. There's been a petition circulating recently to call for non-binary to be recognised as a legal gender. Sure, it's only an issue to a tiny number of people, but if it makes their lives easier, it's a good thing.

@Gemz91 - thanks for your post, I think you've eloquently addressed a lot of things there. I'm 46 now and was at high school between 1985 and 1992, when talking about homosexuality was actually illegal. Extraordinary when you think about it. Homophobic bullying was absolutely rife as well. Fast forward to when my teenage kids were at school (they've both left in the last couple of years) and it's another world in terms of acceptance and tolerance. I'm really impressed by their generation and their attitudes, especially because I'm seeking to unlearn the bigoted intolerance thrashed into me by spending over twenty years of my life in quite extreme churches. There's a demonstration of horrific prejudice for you, if you don't happen to fit into a neat box.

And this is precisely the problem - people who (through no fault of their own) have views on these things embedded into them through normalisation over years and years and years, which is really hard to "unlearn".

We just need to normalise something ever so slightly different.
 

Journeyman

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And this is precisely the problem - people who (through no fault of their own) have views on these things embedded into them through normalisation over years and years and years, which is really hard to "unlearn".

We just need to normalise something ever so slightly different.
Exactly. It's been a valuable lesson for me these last few years, and has actually helped me to understand myself better.
 

whoosh

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I used to work for the same company the person who complained on Twitter works for, and when using the station tannoy I would always address everyone as "customers" for this very reason.

However, the Twitter complaint seems a little too militant for my liking, even though I actually agree with the point raised (regarding inclusion/representation).

Edited: for a schoolboy error! :p

"Customers" isn't inclusive to fare dodgers though - who will be experiencing exactly the same delays and inconvenience as everybody else. Bit exclusive. :D
"Everyone" is probably better.


A bit of context and situational awareness wouldn’t go amiss with that chap. Only an attention seeking idiot would make something of that announcement. It was clearly good spirited and to be taken “in good faith”.

"Chap"? Ooooh!
Can you say that? Did you mean to say that? Is that acceptable?!


Just don't make announcements. Problem solved.

That could well be how the Train Manager concerned is feeling now. Cheery greeting shot down. Sad isn't it.

It wasn't even like Laurence's tweet asked if "everyone" can be used instead - it was petulant in the way it cried out that they weren't going to listen because it didn't apply to them. I think their attitude says more about their identity as a person than their gender.

@Gemz91 That's an excellent post.
 

Journeyman

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It wasn't even like Laurence's tweet asked if "everyone" can be used instead - it was petulant in the way it cried out that they weren't going to listen because it didn't apply to them. I think their attitude says more about their identity as a person than their gender.
Yeah, however good their point was, it's been lost in the noise of immaturity, petulance and faux outrage, and set their cause back a good few years.
 

WestRiding

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And it shouldn't be. There's been a petition circulating recently to call for non-binary to be recognised as a legal gender. Sure, it's only an issue to a tiny number of people, but if it makes their lives easier, it's a good thing.

@Gemz91 - thanks for your post, I think you've eloquently addressed a lot of things there. I'm 46 now and was at high school between 1985 and 1992, when talking about homosexuality was actually illegal. Extraordinary when you think about it. Homophobic bullying was absolutely rife as well. Fast forward to when my teenage kids were at school (they've both left in the last couple of years) and it's another world in terms of acceptance and tolerance. I'm really impressed by their generation and their attitudes, especially because I'm seeking to unlearn the bigoted intolerance thrashed into me by spending over twenty years of my life in quite extreme churches. There's a demonstration of horrific prejudice for you, if you don't happen to fit into a neat box.


If someone is offended by something I've said, however it was meant, it's reasonable for them to say so, and it's reasonable for me not to say it to them again. It's part of being a considerate person.
To be frank, I don't give Two Hoots either way. To me, you are one of two things when born. Male or Female. Science dictates this, and the NHS only recognises these two upon birth. People can do what they want, do what they believe and identify as whatever. Its their choice. But there are only two sexes, anatomy dictates this. We all have opinions. This is mine. If people later in life want to believe they are neither, its their choice and I don't care, until they try forcing it, especially with a militant tweet against someone they could potentially have to represent as a Rep. In this case, it has not helped the cause, and turns people against the cause.
 

Ianno87

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To be frank, I don't give Two Hoots either way. To me, you are one of two things when born. Male or Female. Science dictates this, and the NHS only recognises these two upon birth. People can do what they want, do what they believe and identity as whatever. Its their choice. But there are only two sexes, anatomy dictates this. We all have opinions. This is mine. If people later in life want to believe they are neither, its their choice and I don't care, until they try forcing it, especially with a militant tweet against someone they could potentially have to represent as a Rep. In this case, it has not helped the cause, and turns people against the cause.

On birth, your sex is identified. Your gender is not, that is up to you and what you identify with.
 

Journeyman

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To be frank, I don't give Two Hoots either way. To me, you are one of two things when born. Male or Female. Science dictates this, and the NHS only recognises these two upon birth. People can do what they want, do what they believe and identity as whatever. Its their choice. But there are only two sexes, anatomy dictates this. We all have opinions. This is mine. If people later in life want to believe they are neither, its their choice and I don't care, until they try forcing it, especially with a militant tweet against someone they could potentially have to represent as a Rep. In this case, it has not helped the cause, and turns people against the cause.
Much of your opinion is now ignorant, offensive and not backed up my current medical and scientific thinking.

You've highlighted the problems that trans and non-binary people face.

Yes, this incident has been very badly handled. But it sounds to me like you don't care about offending some of society's most vulnerable people, and that's not a nice quality. Why is the way someone else chooses to live so offensive to you, and why can't you respect it, even if you think it's stupid? Do you feel threatened by it?
 

greatvoyager

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To be frank, I don't give Two Hoots either way. To me, you are one of two things when born. Male or Female. Science dictates this, and the NHS only recognises these two upon birth. People can do what they want, do what they believe and identify as whatever. Its their choice. But there are only two sexes, anatomy dictates this. We all have opinions. This is mine. If people later in life want to believe they are neither, its their choice and I don't care, until they try forcing it, especially with a militant tweet against someone they could potentially have to represent as a Rep. In this case, it has not helped the cause, and turns people against the cause.
There are also people born with both.
 

WelshBluebird

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its their choice and I don't care,
Then why bother posting! For someone who claims not to care, your post comes across as that you very much do.

it's a bit of filler to give people time to tune in to the announcement.
So what is so hard with saying "everyone" instead? It does exactly the same thing does it not, but without excluding anyone.
 

WestRiding

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Much of your opinion is now ignorant, offensive and not backed up my current medical and scientific thinking.

You've highlighted the problems that trans and non-binary people face.

Yes, this incident has been very badly handled. But it sounds to me like you don't care about offending some of society's most vulnerable people, and that's not a nice quality. Why is the way someone else chooses to live so offensive to you, and why can't you respect it, even if you think it's stupid? Do you feel threatened by it?
I will not argue with you. Threatened, no. It doesn't offend me either. I just don't really care. Employees should not have to be scared about addressing their passengers.
 

Journeyman

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Then why bother posting! For someone who claims not to care, your post comes across as that you very much do.
A lot of people feel very threatened by the mere existence of trans and non-binary people. This is one of the main reasons that they're murdered, assaulted or commit suicide far more frequently than straight and/or cis people.

I will not argue with you. Threatened, no. It doesn't offend me either. I just don't really care. Employees should not have to be scared about addressing their passengers.
I strongly suggest you think about what you've said, and how you've said it, which comes across as aggressive and inconsiderate, as well as wrong in several important ways.

I try very hard to be inclusive and welcoming to everyone, even if I think they're a bit ridiculous in what they think/believe/identify as. If you're not offended or threatened by this, why are you behaving as if you are?
 

WestRiding

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Then why bother posting! For someone who claims not to care, your post comes across as that you very much do.


So what is so hard with saying "everyone" instead? It does exactly the same thing does it not, but without excluding anyone
Ok, I'll shut up. Seems like you can only comment if opinions match up. I just hope the Guard is not in trouble.
 

GodAtum

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This has to stop. Its ridiculous. We are supposed to have freedom of speech. People should not have to worry about losing their job by saying some wrong in ordinary conversation.
 
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