TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Watershed]

There is a feature on this evening's Look North about people complaining about the noise from 68s in Scarborough.

The chap from TPE indicated that something would be done in the next 6 weeks to address the overnight noise issue. Sets no longer stabled at Scarborough?

He didn't say that it would be done within 6 weeks - only that the changes could be effected with 6 weeks' notice, once all stakeholders agreed to the solution.

 

[_toommm_]

He didn't say that it would be done within 6 weeks - only that the changes could be effected with 6 weeks' notice, once all stakeholders agreed to the solution.

Shore supplies possibly?

 

[SuperNova]

I believe there are already shore supplies at the depot in Scarborough.

 

[PennineSuperb]

The first set off the depot leaves at around 0505 for 1T52 (0534 to York) 20minutes prior the Loco is started without ETS supplied to the coaches as this creates more noise and this is in an effort to 'improve' the situation for the minor number of residents who are complaining.

The first set on the depot on an evening departs the station at 2105 with the ETS switched off, it arrives at the depot, the locomotive is left running, the Loco is fueled, coaches CET'd and fresh water is filled. It is then moved to the top of the depot where the Loco is then shut down. The last set to the depot on an evening departs the station at around 2305 and leaves the station with the ETS switched off. On arrival at the depot the Loco engine is shut down as it is stabled at the fuel point.

Coach battery's provide the power for the cleaners to work with lighting and a shore supply is provided, however this is/was isolated due to some safety reasons.

 

[JonathanH]

Realistically the only option would appear to be dragging them into Scarborough Station using something that doesn't make so much noise (08 or a battery shunter) and starting them in the station - the interview suggested changing the train plan - a 185 could work the 0534 but then does that mean only one 68 overnight at Scarborough?

 

[xotGD]

Realistically the only option would appear to be dragging them into Scarborough Station using something that doesn't make so much noise (08 or a battery shunter) and starting them in the station - the interview suggested changing the train plan - a 185 could work the 0534 but then does that mean only one 68 overnight at Scarborough?

Could they provide a shunter at the depot? Ideally battery powered so that it is silent.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Other issues then arrise such as having someone who is competent to couple and uncouple (TPE Drivers and Guards are not competent) and the need of an additional brake continuity test, all adding time and expense to the situation. Additional train paths etc.

Using a 185 for the first/last services could be a solution, but then you also have increased costs of these sets being stabled within the station and needing cleaning overnight by another team of cleaners.

Train Crew knowledge is still limited but I can see 185's being used for the first/last services and pushing the 68's & Mk5A's off the depot into later paths. Again, this causes issues and means the depot needs to operate for longer hours at increased costs. (Depot Currently only open overnight.)

TPE have actually increased the amount of soundproofing on the depot back walls but of course this doesn't help when trains leave the depot.

Paul Staples said in the interview that TPE needed to consult its stakeholders including The Rail North Partnership and Scarbrough Borough Council. As a resident who lives in the Scarbrough Council area I can't see them agreeing to removing the first and last services from the train plan as that makes the sound problem solution an issue for them i.e lack of transport to/from York early and late on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they swap them onto south TPE and use 185s to Scarborough instead?

 

[BoroAndy]

The sound proofed fencing is only on the North side (seamer Road). The majority of complaints are from the other side (weaponness). The depot is fully open to this side and sound could bounce off the fencing on the other side. Why don't they just put up fencing on the south side too??

 

[RHolmes]

Could they swap them onto south TPE and use 185s to Scarborough instead?

That would make Scarborough depot redundant

 

[JonathanH]

Train Crew knowledge is still limited but I can see 185's being used for the first/last services and pushing the 68's & Mk5A's off the depot into later paths. Again, this causes issues and means the depot needs to operate for longer hours at increased costs. (Depot Currently only open overnight.)

How is running 185s instead on the 0534 going to work? The 68+Mk5s are the only TPE stock at Scarborough overnight for the 0534 / 0634 departures and the 0734 / 0834 from Scarborough use 185s that come from York. The second arrival from York is the return working of the 0534. Removing the 0702 from York isn't a great idea. Moving one set to stable in York overnight isn't going to work at present, not least because it would reduce the workload at Scarborough.

I guess the point is that it was naive to build a motive power depot in a residential area.

 

[CW2]

How is running 185s instead on the 0534 going to work? The 68+Mk5s are the only TPE stock at Scarborough overnight for the 0534 / 0634 departures and the 0734 / 0834 from Scarborough use 185s that come from York. The second arrival from York is the return working of the 0534. Removing the 0702 from York isn't a great idea. Moving one set to stable in York overnight isn't going to work at present, not least because it would reduce the workload at Scarborough.

I guess the point is that it was naive to build a motive power depot in a residential area.

Make the last York - Scarborough a 185 (fresh off servicing at York), to form the first Scarborough - York the next morning. The penultimate arrival at Scarborough and second departure could be a 68 as now. This would need further juggling to get 185s and 68s on the "proper" diagrams later in the day.

 

[JonathanH]

Make the last York - Scarborough a 185 (fresh off servicing at York), to form the first Scarborough - York the next morning. The penultimate arrival at Scarborough and second departure could be a 68 as now. This would need further juggling to get 185s and 68s on the "proper" diagrams later in the day.

Yes, but you still need something for the 0702 York to Scarborough. I guess the way to do it is to do likewise with a 68+Mk5 set - service it at Scarborough in the early evening, then send it to stable at York platform 2 overnight so it can run the 0702 from York to Scarborough, with the traincrew who have worked the 0534 starting it up at York when they get there. Having said that, is it even acceptable to use a 68+Mk5 set for the 0634? That still means waking the neighbourhood up at 0600.

You could argue that the depot should be quiet from around 6pm to 8am. Mind you, I guess people would then complain about the sound of 68s affecting their ability to sit outside during the day.

 

[CAF397]

Shore supplies possibly?

Wasn't there an issue with them where someone got an electric shock using them so they were isolated? If so, maybe reinstating them?

 

[Watershed]

The fundamental point here is that the railway is under very little obligation to mitigate noise. So therefore any measures would effectively be on a voluntary basis and hence residents have to temper their expectations accordingly.

It appears that the most significant noise is simply that of the 68s arriving and departing the depot to and from the station. No amount of noise insulation (short of burying the entire line in a tunnel) will help with that.

There are operational considerations if you swap around which unit forms what, particularly re: who signs what traction (with Scarborough being the only depot that all sign 68s, but only a small depot at that).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The fundamental point here is that the railway is under very little obligation to mitigate noise. So therefore any measures would effectively be on a voluntary basis and hence residents have to temper their expectations accordingly.

This isn’t strictly true, the depot at Scarborough is a new facility, far newer than the nearby houses and has to meet certain noise regulations. No ‘Grandfather’ rights here.

 

[Andyh82]

Realistically the only option would appear to be dragging them into Scarborough Station using something that doesn't make so much noise (08 or a battery shunter) and starting them in the station - the interview suggested changing the train plan - a 185 could work the 0534 but then does that mean only one 68 overnight at Scarborough?

Could the first unit that arrives in around 9pm-ish, be dealt with in the depot and then sent to stable in the station, then forming the first service of the day, or is that not possible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess the point is that it was naive to build a motive power depot in a residential area.

Yes, this was probably just a little bit silly. Even idling DMUs make a racket and kick out fumes.

 

[47827]

Don't forget they revert to Liverpool services once TPE gets back on track with everything post covid advice on office working etc and eventually the Scarborough line will barely see 185s, bar substitutions or an odd token booked train every so often. The line will be virtually only 68/mk5 operated within the next 18 months if York ever gets its training finished and the Teesside diagrams also start. A 185 working the 0534 and a late evening train then would eventually mean a set swap in Liverpool and extra daily diagrams/ECS moves. More likely they will try to get the sets serviced on arrival and moved back into the station (then shut down til morning) to reduce any early alarm clocks. Assuming the mornings are causing more complaints of course. Its either that or sack off the Scarborough facility with wasted money and run ECS moves to and from York or further afield overnight, which would entail further costs and staffing resources. Can't see the latter!

 

[PennineSuperb]

Yes, but you still need something for the 0702 York to Scarborough. I guess the way to do it is to do likewise with a 68+Mk5 set - service it at Scarborough in the early evening, then send it to stable at York platform 2 overnight so it can run the 0702 from York to Scarborough, with the traincrew who have worked the 0534 starting it up at York when they get there. Having said that, is it even acceptable to use a 68+Mk5 set for the 0634? That still means waking the neighbourhood up at 0600.

You could argue that the depot should be quiet from around 6pm to 8am. Mind you, I guess people would then complain about the sound of 68s affecting their ability to sit outside during the day.

Stabling of 68's & Mk5A's for more than 4hrs is not currently permitted without a full train prep by a driver or fitter which requires access to a full underframe walk around for just under 1hr time wise is allocated in diagramming. If you look at current diagrams you will not see anything stabled for more than 4hrs for this reason and anything that is stabled for more than 4hrs has a Driver come to start it up and then shut it down.

68's & Mk5A's are also not currently allowed in passenger/ECS service for more than 24hrs without the same Prep as above.

Make the last York - Scarborough a 185 (fresh off servicing at York), to form the first Scarborough - York the next morning. The penultimate arrival at Scarborough and second departure could be a 68 as now. This would need further juggling to get 185s and 68s on the "proper" diagrams later in the day.

There has been very little inclination to do this in the past as extra security has to be contracted for the station due to Mr 'TvI' Graffiti artist. (Although I think he has been caught now.)

Don't forget they revert to Liverpool services once TPE gets back on track with everything post covid advice on office working etc and eventually the Scarborough line will barely see 185s, bar substitutions or an odd token booked train every so often. The line will be virtually only 68/mk5 operated within the next 18 months if York ever gets its training finished and the Teesside diagrams also start. A 185 working the 0534 and a late evening train then would eventually mean a set swap in Liverpool and extra daily diagrams/ECS moves. More likely they will try to get the sets serviced on arrival and moved back into the station (then shut down til morning) to reduce any early alarm clocks. Assuming the mornings are causing more complaints of course. Its either that or sack off the Scarborough facility with wasted money and run ECS moves to and from York or further afield overnight, which would entail further costs and staffing resources. Can't see the latter!

Internal documentation released to the unions suggests that 68's & Mk5A's will just operated morning & evening peak services throughout. Daytime services will just shuttle between York & Scarbrough. The Manchester Airport to Redcar (eventually Saltburn) will be 68's & Mk5A's.
When 68's & Mk5A's were ran on York depot for training complaints came from residents on Leeman Road so training has been moved to Gascoigne Wood to combat this.

 

[Watershed]

This isn’t strictly true, the depot at Scarborough is a new facility, far newer than the nearby houses and has to meet certain noise regulations. No ‘Grandfather’ rights here.

The current depot is a newly built facility, but I understand it was built under permitted development rights as there used to be a depot on that site.

Therefore the only real recourse for the residents would be under the ambit of a 'statutory nuisance' complaint - where proving that the "best practicable means" of abating the noise had been taken, would be a total defence.

 

[PennineSuperb]

The current depot is a newly built facility, but I understand it was built under permitted development rights as there used to be a depot on that site.

Therefore the only real recourse for the residents would be under the ambit of a 'statutory nuisance' complaint - where proving that the "best practicable means" of abating the noise had been taken, would be a total defence.

Also, just to add to this. I think* TPE only have to ensure that the noise on the depot is kept to a minimum and not when the sets are running on Network Rail metals. Which currently from a train crew point of view they are doing - lots of things have changed since these sets came in, such as having the ETS off in the depot etc.

 

[37424]

Internal documentation released to the unions suggests that 68's & Mk5A's will just operated morning & evening peak services throughout. Daytime services will just shuttle between York & Scarbrough. The Manchester Airport to Redcar (eventually Saltburn) will be 68's & Mk5A's.
When 68's & Mk5A's were ran on York depot for training complaints came from residents on Leeman Road so training has been moved to Gascoigne Wood to combat this.

Haven't some Redcar residents complained about the noise of the 185's? in which case they are going to love the 68's not.

Given the TPE franchise no longer exists and franchise commitments are in the bin, I think the TPE and Dft need to look at ways of getting rid of these trains from TPE which obviously with leasing agreements may not be easy, and keeping all the 185's instead

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't some Redcar residents complained about the noise of the 185's? in which case they are going to love the 68's not.

Given the TPE franchise no longer exists and franchise commitments are in the bin, I think the TPE and Dft need to look at ways of getting rid of these trains from TPE which obviously with leasing agreements may not be easy, and keeping all the 185's instead

Liverpool to Nottingham still seems a sensible place for them to go to me, maintaining them at Edge Hill and Crown Point Nottingham, neither of which, I believe, are located such that the noise would be an issue.

 

[43096]

Liverpool to Nottingham still seems a sensible place for them to go to me, maintaining them at Edge Hill and Crown Point, neither of which, I believe, are located such that the noise would be an issue.

Crown Point isn’t a position of strength for Liverpool-Nottingham services after the re-cast of services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crown Point isn’t a position of strength for Liverpool-Nottingham services after the re-cast of services.

Sorry, I'm being thick, I meant whatever the Nottingham depot is.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Haven't some Redcar residents complained about the noise of the 185's? in which case they are going to love the 68's not.

Given the TPE franchise no longer exists and franchise commitments are in the bin, I think the TPE and Dft need to look at ways of getting rid of these trains from TPE which obviously with leasing agreements may not be easy, and keeping all the 185's instead

Can all 185 be booked 6-car under a normal/future timetable if this is the case?

 

[RHolmes]

Can all 185 be booked 6-car under a normal/future timetable if this is the case?

No.
Not with the Scarborough running all the way to Liverpool again

 

[37424]

No.
Not with the Scarborough running all the way to Liverpool again

I suspect post covid it would be enough capacity for the forseeable future, you don't know what the future timetable will be, extension from Newcastle - Edinburgh was an optional extra to the ITT I believe it could be reduced or axed all together, there are also issues of line capacity north of York to Newcastle, and course the capacity issues around Manchester that could lead to the currently axed Man Airport - Newcastle service being truncated or axed all together, freeing up 802's cracking issues aside to be moved to other TPE services.

 

[RHolmes]

I suspect post covid it would be enough capacity for the forseeable future, you don't know what the future timetable will be, extension from Newcastle - Edinburgh was an optional extra to the ITT I believe it could be reduced or axed all together, there are also issues of line capacity north of York to Newcastle, and course the capacity issues around Manchester that could lead to the currently axed Man Airport - Newcastle service being truncated or axed all together, freeing up 802's cracking issues aside to be moved to other TPE services.

You’ll still need a greater service provision than current regardless of what happens in the future. This weekend has been a prime example of services between Leeds and Manchester being full and standing for large portions of the day on the current 4tph (including stoppers).