Should the NHS refuse treatment for people that haven’t had the vaccination?

[VauxhallandI]

Perhaps not. But then I regard vaccination as primarily a matter of public health, not personal, so that doesn't cause me to lose much sleep.

Does that make you a sociopath?

 

[LAX54]

I find that really hard to argue with. And is why I (of the same age and position as you) am almost a bit ashamed of having grabbed a vaccine. Why people my age think it is something to be proud of, I’ll never know.

But then, ALL the vulnerable people should have been done months ago, it's one of the reasons we locked down.

 

[greyman42]

I have decided to not get the vaccine, I am in my early 30s and in good health, I rarely get sick, I believe someone more vulnerable than I should get the vaccine before me.

Why would you not have it? The reason cannot be financial as it is free and regarding availability, there is plenty to go round, so i see no benefit in not having it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Why would you not have it? The reason cannot be financial as it is free and regarding availability, there is plenty to go round, so i see no benefit in not having it.

That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.

It doesn’t need to be a question of morals, it is a personal choice and going forward Covid will be like the flu and it will be seasonal, we will simply have to live with it.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.

I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.

 

[Darandio]

That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.

It doesn’t need to be a question of morals, it is a personal choice and going forward Covid will be like the flu and it will be seasonal, we will simply have to live with it.

I completely respect your decision, it's your choice. Whatever your reasoning, it's nobody elses business.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.

You say you respect my decision yet you’re implying I’m not getting vaccinated for selfish reasons, your comment does not respect mine or anyone else’s decision not to get vaccinated.

 

[Darandio]

I think the time has come to allow fully vaccinated people to be able to go abroad and attend mass gatherings etc.The ones who choose not to be vaccinated will have to miss out.

It's time for people to give it a rest with this us against them attitude. Cretins.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I completely respect your decision, it's your choice. Whatever your reasoning, it's nobody elses business.

Thank you, that’s what people need to get into their heads, it’s no one’s business what one does to their body

I think the time has come to allow fully vaccinated people to be able to go abroad and attend mass gatherings etc.The ones who choose not to be vaccinated will have to miss out.

Yes because apartheid is an ideology that has always worked hasn’t it, we’ve had enough of tinpot dictators this past year, Covid has a high survival rate, and will eventually become seasonal and flu like, so stop with this segregation idea

It's time for people to give it a rest with this us against them attitude. Cretins.

Covid has made some people with little power feel like they have the moral high ground to cast judgment upon people, I leave them to it since they’re in the minority

 

[35B]

Your constant doubting of vaccination effectiveness is wearing thin.

I do believe vaccination is effective, just not that the current levels are sufficient to bear the weight some on here put on them.

In other words, you made a claim, and are now realising you have no evidence to back it up.

Do you not think that may be due to the fact that Sars-CoV-2 was a novel virus introduced into an immunologically naive population, whereas influenza is a well established family of viruses to which we have already reached endemic equilibrium?

Indeed, it’s a possibility.

 

[Yew]

I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.

People do live in other countries, the French might eat disgusting intestine sausages, but they are actually humans too.

 

[londonteacher]

People do live in other countries, the French might eat disgusting intestine sausages, but they are actually humans too.

I'm confused by this. What is the relevance or has it just gone over my head?

 

[35B]

I am not particularly interested in debating this point with you as I do not fundamentally disagree with you; I agree that people in such environments should get vaccinated but I do not think either of us are in a position to state whether it should be made mandatory or not, and I would certainly exercise caution before stating such a mandate should be in place.

I also think that extremist views on one side will breed resentment and extremist views on the other. For example the more you state your views, which I and many others perceive to be authoritarian, the less agreeable I find myself to such views and the more I feel like pushing back against them.

While I believe in the effectiveness of the vaccines and the importance of people being vaccinated, I also see that people who state authoritarian views on such matters are not in any way encouraging those who are hesitant to get vaccinated; on the contrary such views actually dissuade people from doing so, and make people resentful, suspicious and doubtful.

This is an opinion forum, I expressed an opinion. As for the question of extremism, I’m interested in your characterisation of many who’ve posted here - a view that despite my deep disagreement with many of those views I don’t share. I tend to Karl Popper’s view of intolerance of intolerance; the failure of democratic societies to vigorously assert their position undermines their freedom.

I agree that the most effective way to persuade people to do something they are hesitant to do is to get alongside them; not to demonise them. But I also believe that there are some points on which a society can also quite legitimately compel people to follow a particular course of action.

 

[Yew]

I'm confused by this. What is the relevance or has it just gone over my head?

It was a note that the vaccine priority list is by nation, and that there are people in other countries with higher level of medical need.

 

[londonteacher]

It was a note that the vaccine priority list is by nation, and that there are people in other countries with higher level of medical need.

Aah right - fair enough. Not a lot we can do about that in the UK though.

 

[Yew]

Aah right - fair enough. Not a lot we can do about that in the UK though.

Instead of vaccinating low risk individuals, we could give those doses to the WHO's COVAX initiative, and they could go to people in need in other countries?

 

[londonteacher]

Instead of vaccinating low risk individuals, we could give those doses to the WHO's COVAX initiative, and they could go to people in need in other countries?

Although lower risk is true, imagine if someone became seriously ill with the virus and it turned out that they would have had their vaccine sooner if we had not sent as many abroad! The racists would have a field day with that - I agree though we should be doing more to support COVAX.

 

[Bantamzen]

Although lower risk is true, imagine if someone became seriously ill with the virus and it turned out that they would have had their vaccine sooner if we had not sent as many abroad! The racists would have a field day with that - I agree though we should be doing more to support COVAX.

I'm not sure pandering to a racist minority is the best strategy going forward. The chances of younger people becoming seriously ill are much less, and so giving vaccines to other countries whose vulnerable people remain unvaccinated makes far more sense and will likely save more lives.

 

[londonteacher]

I'm not sure pandering to a racist minority is the best strategy going forward. The chances of younger people becoming seriously ill are much less, and so giving vaccines to other countries whose vulnerable people remain unvaccinated makes far more sense and will likely save more lives.

I agree with that.

 

[greyman42]

That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.

Whether you need it or not, do you think there is a benefit in not being vaccinated?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Whether you need it or not, do you think there is a benefit in not being vaccinated?

For me yes, even if catch Covid I’ll have a 99% chance of surviving it, pretty sure I already had it in Dec 2019/Jan 2020, it was less than a flu slightly more than a cold, also there is an immune system which I have faith in.

Now I ask you what benefits me having the vaccine?

 

[35B]

For me yes, even if catch Covid I’ll have a 99% chance of surviving it, pretty sure I already had it in Dec 2019/Jan 2020, it was less than a flu slightly more than a cold, also there is an immune system which I have faith in.

Now I ask you what benefits me having the vaccine?

Having an immune system that is actually ready to respond to the virus would be my starting point, given that the point of a vaccine is to boost and prime the immune system. I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Having an immune system that is actually ready to respond to the virus would be my starting point, given that the point of a vaccine is to boost and prime the immune system. I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.

“ I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.”

Not sure where you’re going with this quote here, you seem to be quite dismissive of those who have survived Covid, one could easily say getting vaccinated for a virus with a 99% survival rate is the bare definition for success, doesn’t stop virtue signallers on Facebook posting a “I’ve been vaccinated” banner on their profile picture now does it?

 

[Failed Unit]

According to this source.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop	Deaths/ 1M pop	Total Tests	Tests/ 1M pop	Population
	World	174,117,288	+75,443	3,745,456	+1,613	157,424,069	12,947,763	87,050	22,338	480.5

So 91% of those that have got tested survive.

These statistics will of course be debated. Are China's too low? Are the UKs to high (as they record anyone with a positive test in the last 28 days so someone could die of a heart attack who happens to have had a positive test). Then people such as myself my have had it but not got tested as dismissed it as flu (because Covid didn't exist in the UK at the time).

I will not dismiss the high number of people that have tragically died, but the survival rate is fairly high compared to getting hit by a car if you are a motorcycle.

 

[packermac]

Flu is a serious transmissable disease. Would you have demanded NHS staff and plumbers be vaccinated pre-2020? Thought not.

I could be wrong but I thought the NHS did or at (least suggested) pre Covid all staff should be vaccinated against flu.

Your constant doubting of vaccination effectiveness is wearing thin.


In other words, you made a claim, and are now realising you have no evidence to back it up.


Do you not think that may be due to the fact that Sars-CoV-2 was a novel virus introduced into an immunologically naive population, whereas influenza is a well established family of viruses to which we have already reached endemic equilibrium?



This is due to the lack of immunity which means the virus is able to spread beyond the respiratory area.

IF you are suggesting that this is not the case with influenza, the evidence suggests otherwise.

Pandemic H1N1 Influenza Infection and Vascular Thrombosis

During the summer and fall of 2009, we observed significant thrombotic events in patients infected with the pandemic H1N1 influenza A virus. A retrospective cha

academic.oup.com

We are already transitioning from the epidemic phase to the endemic phase due to both high levels of infection (antibody seroprevalence studies suggest this is much higher than the official figures) and the huge success of the vaccination programme in delivering vaccines that offer very high levels of immunity (much better than the influenza vaccines typically do) in the majority of the population.



I am not particularly interested in debating this point with you as I do not fundamentally disagree with you; I agree that people in such environments should get vaccinated but I do not think either of us are in a position to state whether it should be made mandatory or not, and I would certainly exercise caution before stating such a mandate should be in place.

I also think that extremist views on one side will breed resentment and extremist views on the other. For example the more you state your views, which I and many others perceive to be authoritarian, the less agreeable I find myself to such views and the more I feel like pushing back against them.

While I believe in the effectiveness of the vaccines and the importance of people being vaccinated, I also see that people who state authoritarian views on such matters are not in any way encouraging those who are hesitant to get vaccinated; on the contrary such views actually dissuade people from doing so, and make people resentful, suspicious and doubtful.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say or achieve much of the time (indeed I believe you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues, despite posting as if you do).

So you do not regard your views as authoritarian in the opposite direction then?

 

[Darandio]

I could be wrong but I thought the NHS did or at (least suggested) pre Covid all staff should be vaccinated against flu.

Suggested maybe, i'm fairly sure it wasn't mandatory.

That wasn't really the point though. Even if NHS staff were vaccinated against flu pre-Covid I don't believe for one minute that any patient would have demanded proof of this vaccination before accepting treatment. But that appears to be what was suggested in this thread now everyone wants in on the medical history of everyone else.

 

[35B]

“ I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.”

Not sure where you’re going with this quote here, you seem to be quite dismissive of those who have survived Covid, one could easily say getting vaccinated for a virus with a 99% survival rate is the bare definition for success, doesn’t stop virtue signallers on Facebook posting a “I’ve been vaccinated” banner on their profile picture now does it?

I'm not dismissive at all of those who survive Covid, but I do question the focus on survival as the only outcome that matters from infection. It is used by many who seek to downplay the significance of the pandemic as a rhetorical device to distract from any other consequences of Covid, and generally downplay the severity of the disease.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm not dismissive at all of those who survive Covid, but I do question the focus on survival as the only outcome that matters from infection. It is used by many who seek to downplay the significance of the pandemic as a rhetorical device to distract from any other consequences of Covid, and generally downplay the severity of the disease.

But why is Covid the only preventable death that people seem to want to get rid of? Why are we not putting as much effort into cancer (which is now a lower priority than Covid), or deaths in road traffic accidents. Cycling is now more risky because the lots of people think the only safe way of getting from A-B is drive. 90% of people getting Covid survive, I bet motorcyclists wish their survival rate was that high when they are hit by cars - but no-one cares about this... (Of course by the logic of this thread the motorcyclist should be refused treatment by the NHS if the accident was their fault, as should the person that didn't get their lump checked out that turns out to be cancer because they didn't want to burden the NHS and its obsession with covid)

 

[asw22]

Here is an illustration of how vaccine uptake influences the R value, making some assumptions
1. The base R value is 3
2. The vaccine efficacy is 75%
3. Pre-covid contact levels in the population (no social distancing etc)
4. An approximate use of Bayes theorem
5. Other environmental factors may exist

Proportion of population vaccinated

0%​

10%​

20%​

30%​

40%​

50%​

60%​

70%​

80%​

90%​

95%​

100%​

Vaccine efficacy

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

75%​

R value

3.0​

2.8​

2.6​

2.3​

2.1​

1.9​

1.7​

1.4​

1.2​

1.0​

0.9​

0.8​

So:
100% population uptake of the vaccine does not reduce the R value to 0 (unless the vaccine has 100% efficacy)
However there is a critical point (maybe 90+% vaccine uptake for 75% efficacy) where the R value dips below 1
So could allow for say 1 in 20 not to be vaccinated and the R value drops below 1

If the efficacy increases (due to boosters etc) then the R value decreases
If the efficacy decrease (due to new variants etc) then the R value increases

 

[35B]

But why is Covid the only preventable death that people seem to want to get rid of? Why are we not putting as much effort into cancer (which is now a lower priority than Covid), or deaths in road traffic accidents. Cycling is now more risky because the lots of people think the only safe way of getting from A-B is drive. 90% of people getting Covid survive, I bet motorcyclists wish their survival rate was that high when they are hit by cars - but no-one cares about this... (Of course by the logic of this thread the motorcyclist should be refused treatment by the NHS if the accident was their fault, as should the person that didn't get their lump checked out that turns out to be cancer because they didn't want to burden the NHS and its obsession with covid)

The questions of prioritisation are valid and interesting. My own take is that it is Covid that has caused utter mayhem over the last year, and demonstrated in a way that flu has not an ability to suck the life out of healthcare systems - not just the NHS, but more widely. Unlike cancer, it is infectious, and unlike both cancer and road deaths, is new and unfamiliar. We do need to learn to live with risk, which is why I have been dogmatic on data rather than dates, as it is developing an intuitive understanding of risk that will allows us to learn to live with Covid over time.

However, I also take the view that vaccines against transmissible diseases are for both personal and collective benefit. We have vaccines against Covid, and can see from the progress that's been made so far here and elsewhere that they are extremely effective in containing this disease. In those circumstances, I find it hard to comprehend how or why anyone should not be willing to take those vaccines for both their own direct benefit and that of others; in certain contexts (health care being one), I also see that as a really basic thing that staff can do to protect their patients and struggle with the ethics of not mandating it.

If similarly safe and effective vaccines were available for other diseases, for example flu, then I would absolutely extend my opinion to those - it is not Covid specific.