VauxhallandI
Established Member
Does that make you a sociopath?Perhaps not. But then I regard vaccination as primarily a matter of public health, not personal, so that doesn't cause me to lose much sleep.
Does that make you a sociopath?Perhaps not. But then I regard vaccination as primarily a matter of public health, not personal, so that doesn't cause me to lose much sleep.
But then, ALL the vulnerable people should have been done months ago, it's one of the reasons we locked down.I find that really hard to argue with. And is why I (of the same age and position as you) am almost a bit ashamed of having grabbed a vaccine. Why people my age think it is something to be proud of, I’ll never know.
Why would you not have it? The reason cannot be financial as it is free and regarding availability, there is plenty to go round, so i see no benefit in not having it.I have decided to not get the vaccine, I am in my early 30s and in good health, I rarely get sick, I believe someone more vulnerable than I should get the vaccine before me.
Why would you not have it? The reason cannot be financial as it is free and regarding availability, there is plenty to go round, so i see no benefit in not having it.
I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.
That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.
It doesn’t need to be a question of morals, it is a personal choice and going forward Covid will be like the flu and it will be seasonal, we will simply have to live with it.
I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.
I think the time has come to allow fully vaccinated people to be able to go abroad and attend mass gatherings etc.The ones who choose not to be vaccinated will have to miss out.
I completely respect your decision, it's your choice. Whatever your reasoning, it's nobody elses business.
I think the time has come to allow fully vaccinated people to be able to go abroad and attend mass gatherings etc.The ones who choose not to be vaccinated will have to miss out.
It's time for people to give it a rest with this us against them attitude. Cretins.
I do believe vaccination is effective, just not that the current levels are sufficient to bear the weight some on here put on them.Your constant doubting of vaccination effectiveness is wearing thin.
Indeed, it’s a possibility.In other words, you made a claim, and are now realising you have no evidence to back it up.
Do you not think that may be due to the fact that Sars-CoV-2 was a novel virus introduced into an immunologically naive population, whereas influenza is a well established family of viruses to which we have already reached endemic equilibrium?
People do live in other countries, the French might eat disgusting intestine sausages, but they are actually humans too.I do respect your decision. It is completely up to you whether you have it or not. However, I don’t respect your claim that you are doing it for altruistic reasons when you clearly are not. You not being vaccinated won’t mean somebody in greater need will be vaccinated earlier. That is the whole point of the vaccination priority list.
I'm confused by this. What is the relevance or has it just gone over my head?People do live in other countries, the French might eat disgusting intestine sausages, but they are actually humans too.
This is an opinion forum, I expressed an opinion. As for the question of extremism, I’m interested in your characterisation of many who’ve posted here - a view that despite my deep disagreement with many of those views I don’t share. I tend to Karl Popper’s view of intolerance of intolerance; the failure of democratic societies to vigorously assert their position undermines their freedom.I am not particularly interested in debating this point with you as I do not fundamentally disagree with you; I agree that people in such environments should get vaccinated but I do not think either of us are in a position to state whether it should be made mandatory or not, and I would certainly exercise caution before stating such a mandate should be in place.
I also think that extremist views on one side will breed resentment and extremist views on the other. For example the more you state your views, which I and many others perceive to be authoritarian, the less agreeable I find myself to such views and the more I feel like pushing back against them.
While I believe in the effectiveness of the vaccines and the importance of people being vaccinated, I also see that people who state authoritarian views on such matters are not in any way encouraging those who are hesitant to get vaccinated; on the contrary such views actually dissuade people from doing so, and make people resentful, suspicious and doubtful.
It was a note that the vaccine priority list is by nation, and that there are people in other countries with higher level of medical need.I'm confused by this. What is the relevance or has it just gone over my head?
Aah right - fair enough. Not a lot we can do about that in the UK though.It was a note that the vaccine priority list is by nation, and that there are people in other countries with higher level of medical need.
Instead of vaccinating low risk individuals, we could give those doses to the WHO's COVAX initiative, and they could go to people in need in other countries?Aah right - fair enough. Not a lot we can do about that in the UK though.
Although lower risk is true, imagine if someone became seriously ill with the virus and it turned out that they would have had their vaccine sooner if we had not sent as many abroad! The racists would have a field day with that - I agree though we should be doing more to support COVAX.Instead of vaccinating low risk individuals, we could give those doses to the WHO's COVAX initiative, and they could go to people in need in other countries?
I'm not sure pandering to a racist minority is the best strategy going forward. The chances of younger people becoming seriously ill are much less, and so giving vaccines to other countries whose vulnerable people remain unvaccinated makes far more sense and will likely save more lives.Although lower risk is true, imagine if someone became seriously ill with the virus and it turned out that they would have had their vaccine sooner if we had not sent as many abroad! The racists would have a field day with that - I agree though we should be doing more to support COVAX.
I agree with that.I'm not sure pandering to a racist minority is the best strategy going forward. The chances of younger people becoming seriously ill are much less, and so giving vaccines to other countries whose vulnerable people remain unvaccinated makes far more sense and will likely save more lives.
Whether you need it or not, do you think there is a benefit in not being vaccinated?That’s your opinion and I respect it, But I’m in the age group I’m which Covid is least likely to effect me so I therefore do not need the vaccine, please respect my decision.
Whether you need it or not, do you think there is a benefit in not being vaccinated?
Having an immune system that is actually ready to respond to the virus would be my starting point, given that the point of a vaccine is to boost and prime the immune system. I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.For me yes, even if catch Covid I’ll have a 99% chance of surviving it, pretty sure I already had it in Dec 2019/Jan 2020, it was less than a flu slightly more than a cold, also there is an immune system which I have faith in.
Now I ask you what benefits me having the vaccine?
Having an immune system that is actually ready to respond to the virus would be my starting point, given that the point of a vaccine is to boost and prime the immune system. I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.
Country, Other | Total Cases | New Cases | Total Deaths | New Deaths | Total Recovered | Active Cases | Serious, Critical | Tot Cases/ 1M pop | Deaths/ 1M pop | Total Tests | Tests/ 1M pop | Population |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
World | 174,117,288 | +75,443 | 3,745,456 | +1,613 | 157,424,069 | 12,947,763 | 87,050 | 22,338 | 480.5 |
I could be wrong but I thought the NHS did or at (least suggested) pre Covid all staff should be vaccinated against flu.Flu is a serious transmissable disease. Would you have demanded NHS staff and plumbers be vaccinated pre-2020? Thought not.
So you do not regard your views as authoritarian in the opposite direction then?Your constant doubting of vaccination effectiveness is wearing thin.
In other words, you made a claim, and are now realising you have no evidence to back it up.
Do you not think that may be due to the fact that Sars-CoV-2 was a novel virus introduced into an immunologically naive population, whereas influenza is a well established family of viruses to which we have already reached endemic equilibrium?
This is due to the lack of immunity which means the virus is able to spread beyond the respiratory area.
IF you are suggesting that this is not the case with influenza, the evidence suggests otherwise.
Pandemic H1N1 Influenza Infection and Vascular Thrombosis
During the summer and fall of 2009, we observed significant thrombotic events in patients infected with the pandemic H1N1 influenza A virus. A retrospective chaacademic.oup.com
We are already transitioning from the epidemic phase to the endemic phase due to both high levels of infection (antibody seroprevalence studies suggest this is much higher than the official figures) and the huge success of the vaccination programme in delivering vaccines that offer very high levels of immunity (much better than the influenza vaccines typically do) in the majority of the population.
I am not particularly interested in debating this point with you as I do not fundamentally disagree with you; I agree that people in such environments should get vaccinated but I do not think either of us are in a position to state whether it should be made mandatory or not, and I would certainly exercise caution before stating such a mandate should be in place.
I also think that extremist views on one side will breed resentment and extremist views on the other. For example the more you state your views, which I and many others perceive to be authoritarian, the less agreeable I find myself to such views and the more I feel like pushing back against them.
While I believe in the effectiveness of the vaccines and the importance of people being vaccinated, I also see that people who state authoritarian views on such matters are not in any way encouraging those who are hesitant to get vaccinated; on the contrary such views actually dissuade people from doing so, and make people resentful, suspicious and doubtful.
I really don't understand what you are trying to say or achieve much of the time (indeed I believe you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues, despite posting as if you do).
I could be wrong but I thought the NHS did or at (least suggested) pre Covid all staff should be vaccinated against flu.
I'm not dismissive at all of those who survive Covid, but I do question the focus on survival as the only outcome that matters from infection. It is used by many who seek to downplay the significance of the pandemic as a rhetorical device to distract from any other consequences of Covid, and generally downplay the severity of the disease.“ I also regard survival from a disease as a rather bare definition of success.”
Not sure where you’re going with this quote here, you seem to be quite dismissive of those who have survived Covid, one could easily say getting vaccinated for a virus with a 99% survival rate is the bare definition for success, doesn’t stop virtue signallers on Facebook posting a “I’ve been vaccinated” banner on their profile picture now does it?
But why is Covid the only preventable death that people seem to want to get rid of? Why are we not putting as much effort into cancer (which is now a lower priority than Covid), or deaths in road traffic accidents. Cycling is now more risky because the lots of people think the only safe way of getting from A-B is drive. 90% of people getting Covid survive, I bet motorcyclists wish their survival rate was that high when they are hit by cars - but no-one cares about this... (Of course by the logic of this thread the motorcyclist should be refused treatment by the NHS if the accident was their fault, as should the person that didn't get their lump checked out that turns out to be cancer because they didn't want to burden the NHS and its obsession with covid)I'm not dismissive at all of those who survive Covid, but I do question the focus on survival as the only outcome that matters from infection. It is used by many who seek to downplay the significance of the pandemic as a rhetorical device to distract from any other consequences of Covid, and generally downplay the severity of the disease.
Proportion of population vaccinated | 0% | 10% | 20% | 30% | 40% | 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 95% | 100% |
Vaccine efficacy | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% | 75% |
R value | 3.0 | 2.8 | 2.6 | 2.3 | 2.1 | 1.9 | 1.7 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.9 | 0.8 |
The questions of prioritisation are valid and interesting. My own take is that it is Covid that has caused utter mayhem over the last year, and demonstrated in a way that flu has not an ability to suck the life out of healthcare systems - not just the NHS, but more widely. Unlike cancer, it is infectious, and unlike both cancer and road deaths, is new and unfamiliar. We do need to learn to live with risk, which is why I have been dogmatic on data rather than dates, as it is developing an intuitive understanding of risk that will allows us to learn to live with Covid over time.But why is Covid the only preventable death that people seem to want to get rid of? Why are we not putting as much effort into cancer (which is now a lower priority than Covid), or deaths in road traffic accidents. Cycling is now more risky because the lots of people think the only safe way of getting from A-B is drive. 90% of people getting Covid survive, I bet motorcyclists wish their survival rate was that high when they are hit by cars - but no-one cares about this... (Of course by the logic of this thread the motorcyclist should be refused treatment by the NHS if the accident was their fault, as should the person that didn't get their lump checked out that turns out to be cancer because they didn't want to burden the NHS and its obsession with covid)