Preserved EMU Question

[yorksrob]

No, they weren't. I've already explained that most "preserved" EMUs that BR operated had ceased operation by 1990 for some reason or another.

BR still existed when operation of most of these "preserved" EMUs ceased operation, so no attempt was made to keep them going. It was done for a short period while it was still easy to do so, but as soon as difficulties arose, BR sold them off, way before privatisation occurred. They didn't have the time, money or expertise to keep these old assets going. In most cases, units like the SUB and 306 were overhauled right at the end of their classes' careers, and were kept going until major attention was required again, at which point they stopped operating. There was never any guarantee or intention to keep them going forever.

I remember travelling on the 4SUB between Brighton and Seaford and that was after 1990.

 

[Journeyman]

I remember travelling on the 4SUB between Brighton and Seaford and that was after 1990.

The SUB was the only one operating after about that time. It went in 1995. Still far more to do with the issues I've raised repeatedly than anything to do with privatisation, but hey, don't let facts get in the way. There's absolutely no way the SUB would still be running in an alternate history.

 

[yorksrob]

The SUB was the only one operating after about that time. It went in 1995. Still far more to do with the issues I've raised repeatedly than anything to do with privatisation, but hey, don't let facts get in the way. There's absolutely no way the SUB would still be running in an alternate history.

1983 -1995 in working preservation. I regard that as a very good innings. Well done BR.

 

[A0wen]

We are discussing EMU preservation on this thread and it is something that BR was very good at.

Not for the first time, you're being *highly* selective, so let's start by identifying which EMUs *were* withdrawn under BR.

There were a number of Southern classes withdrawn. BR only "saved" the 4Sub as a depot pet. The 2BIL was taken on by the NRM, the 4COR was preseved by the SEG. Would it be a good time to mention the 4DD, which arguably had more historic significance than any of those?

What about non-Southern?

Well, you've mentioned the 502 (NRM) and 503. But what about the 501s? All withdrawn under BR tenure. Nor did they attempt to save any of the LNWR units which preceded the 501s, again arguably of far more historic importance than an EPB.

I'll overlook the 506s and 505's as BR no longer had a 1500v DC line.

But what about the exTyneside units?

And the ex Midland units at Morecambe ?

Or the ex L&Y Bury units?

Or do none of those count because they disprove your point and you're only concerned about a narrow set of ex BR SR units?

 

[Journeyman]

Or do none of those count because they disprove your point and you're only concerned about a narrow set of ex BR SR units?

...which are the best represented EMUs in preservation by a long shot anyway!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

According to the June Railway Magazine, the preserved 4-VEP is being restored for main line running (including GSM-R, central door locking, etc.), so presumably somebody thinks it's worthwhile.

Do the current caretakers of the unit also look after a lower-density unit such as a CIG or CEP? If so, I'd love to have been at the meeting where it was decided that the VEP was the priority for CDL!

 

[Journeyman]

Do the current caretakers of the unit also look after a lower-density unit such as a CIG or CEP? If so, I'd love to have been at the meeting where it was decided that the VEP was the priority for CDL!

No, they don't own other units as far as I know. I assume only some of the doors will be CDL fitted, with the others locked, as use on tours won't require the VEP's ability to load/unload very quickly at multiple stations.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No, they don't own other units as far as I know. I assume only some of the doors will be CDL fitted, with the others locked, as use on tours won't require the VEP's ability to load/unload very quickly at multiple stations.

That makes more sense, thanks. Didn't the Chiltern and ATW bubble cars have some doors permanently locked out of use too?

No doubt it'll annoy the purists though!

 

[Journeyman]

That makes more sense, thanks. Didn't the Chiltern and ATW bubble cars have some doors permanently locked out of use too?

They did indeed, so I'm assuming that will be the model they'll follow.

The Hastings DEMU lacks a first class vehicle due to there being external doors to every compartment on the non-corridor side.

 

[JonathanH]

I recall that the 306 was expected to operate on 28 July 2002 as part of event on the Great Eastern network but it wasn't fit to run. I think that was the last attempt to run it.

 

[Journeyman]

I recall that the 306 was expected to operate on 28 July 2002 as part of event on the Great Eastern network but it wasn't fit to run. I think that was the last attempt to run it.

Wow, I'm very surprised it lasted that long.

 

[D6130]

I recall that the 306 was expected to operate on 28 July 2002 as part of event on the Great Eastern network but it wasn't fit to run. I think that was the last attempt to run it

What happened to the 306 in the end? Was it broken up?

 

[JonathanH]

What happened to the 306 in the end? Was it broken up?

It is at Shildon in need of attention.

 

[D6130]

It is at Shildon in need of attention.

Thanks. At least it's still around then and could be restored as a static exhibit.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What happened to the 306 in the end? Was it broken up?

It went to the East Anglian Railway museum, Chappel as static exhibit for a time until (presumably) there was space for it at Shildon

Incidentally, has the DTC of the 2Hap (4308) been cosmetically restored yet and married up to the DMBS? I'm guessing the 306 is next in line now the Class 71 has been done

 

[Journeyman]

It went to the East Anglian Railway museum, Chappel as static exhibit for a time until (presumably) there was space for it at Shildon

Incidentally, has the DTC of the 2Hap (4308) been cosmetically restored yet and married up to the DMBS? I'm guessing the 306 is next in line now the Class 71 has been done

I believe the HAP is complete, yes.

 

[colchesterken]

I think it is a great shame that we ( this generation ) have not had the forethought to preserve
some of the first generation EMUs, in 50 yrs time people will look on this stuff as we now think
about the Chesham set, and a lot of the carriages in preservation
I blame the NRM for not taking an example of many post steam locos I am sure they could be stored in a shed some ware to be re-cond when they became of interest look at the new builds,10000 the baby Deltic recreating what was lost
I think it is sad that no 1960s 25kv units are preserved complete, I remember a trip to Southend for a meeting in about 1984 on 302-214 ex works in green with original seats, I thought it was refurbed
for preservation ..sadly lost, and the 309s just a few odd coaches left they should have saved a 4 car set

 

[A0wen]

I think it is a great shame that we ( this generation ) have not had the forethought to preserve
some of the first generation EMUs, in 50 yrs time people will look on this stuff as we now think
about the Chesham set, and a lot of the carriages in preservation
I blame the NRM for not taking an example of many post steam locos I am sure they could be stored in a shed some ware to be re-cond when they became of interest look at the new builds,10000 the baby Deltic recreating what was lost
I think it is sad that no 1960s 25kv units are preserved complete, I remember a trip to Southend for a meeting in about 1984 on 302-214 ex works in green with original seats, I thought it was refurbed
for preservation ..sadly lost, and the 309s just a few odd coaches left they should have saved a 4 car set

But for what purpose?

The heritage railways have no use for them. They are of limited interest to the "man on the street", and the NRM has to be selective - it's not a case of saving one of everything, but instead saving representative examples of things. The Baby Deltis were a failure - why should the NRM have saved one of those? Instead they have taken one each of a successful Type 1 and Type 2 (Class 20 and 31).

On the EMU front, I believe they have earmarked 313001 - which makes sense - it was the next generation of suburban units and was ac/dc dual voltage - a first for BR. They don't need (and didn't need) a 302, 307, 309, 312 or many others to tell the story.

 

[Wolfie]

What, because they clung onto all that knackered old stock and kept using it in service?

Absolutely. The same old junk that some people, given half a chance, would still have operating. If there are opportunities then occasional specials, at full not marginal (why the hell should either the taxpayer or farepayer subsidise a minority leisure interest?) cost, should be considered.

Absolutely, there was demand for things like the SUB, the BIL and the 306 while BR were willing to maintain them and use them on special shuttles etc., but those days are gone. They were often used on short trips on open days etc, and there's no way that a private organisation preserving something like that would ever be able to make enough money, even if the considerable technical obstacles could be overcome.

The BEL is the only type of EMU I can think of that could earn the revenue to support its operation long term, and even then the thing has had such a massive rebuild to conform to modern safety standards that its authenticity has been massively compromised. There's barely an original component left.

Saying that a preserved CIG/VEP/SUB/EPB could earn its keep and cover restoration and running costs trundling up and down to Seaford now and again is laughable.

It was relatively easy for BR to keep many of those running as they used fundamentally the same technology as much of the then-current rolling stock.

You are incorrect. The 2BIL was owned by the NRM and only looked after by BR. I'm pretty certain that 5001 would still be with is if BR had remained.

The fact remains that BR preserved and looked after various EMU's and enabled them to run on the main line under their own power. The privatised railway does not. That is the crux of the matter.

The role of the railways is to provide a public service today, not to pander to some people's desire to retain the past. If the latter can be done at no impact to the former and at no cost then l have no issues. If you expect the current taxpayer/farepayer to subsidise your hobby in the other hand....

It's pretty much irrelevant anyway. In the grand scheme of things, it's a trivial matter and I'm not convinced a massively taxpayer-subsidised industry should be using public money for enthusiast jollies. We have a huge heritage sector that does a (largely) good job, and a very impressive cross-section of rolling stock has been saved for posterity. The 2-HAP at Shildon has had a superb restoration recently, and the 306 is getting one.

Spot on.

 

[yorksrob]

Not for the first time, you're being *highly* selective, so let's start by identifying which EMUs *were* withdrawn under BR.

There were a number of Southern classes withdrawn. BR only "saved" the 4Sub as a depot pet. The 2BIL was taken on by the NRM, the 4COR was preseved by the SEG. Would it be a good time to mention the 4DD, which arguably had more historic significance than any of those?

What about non-Southern?

Well, you've mentioned the 502 (NRM) and 503. But what about the 501s? All withdrawn under BR tenure. Nor did they attempt to save any of the LNWR units which preceded the 501s, again arguably of far more historic importance than an EPB.

I'll overlook the 506s and 505's as BR no longer had a 1500v DC line.

But what about the exTyneside units?

And the ex Midland units at Morecambe ?

Or the ex L&Y Bury units?

Or do none of those count because they disprove your point and you're only concerned about a narrow set of ex BR SR units?

And you forget the wider context of railway preservation at the time. Very few vehicles have been officially preserved as part of the national collection. Most of that achieved (of steam and diesel locos for example) has been preserved by private individuals and organisations with a view to running on private steam railways. Some electric vehicles did make it to the national collection at the time, but given the overall situation and the lack of any preserved electric railways for them to run on, it's impressive that BR managed to preserve and run the electric units it did - and as such, there were a small selection from all over the network.

But people seem to feel the need rubbish those achievements, perhaps because they make the modern railway look not very dynamic in that respect.

 

[43096]

Absolutely. The same old junk that some people, given half a chance, would still have operating. If there are opportunities then occasional specials, at full not marginal (why the hell should either the taxpayer or farepayer subsidise a minority leisure interest?) cost, should be considered.

If you're going down that route, why is arts stuff (ballet, theatre etc) subsidised? It's a minority interest.

Come to think of it, huge chunks of the railway run based on subsidy, a chunk of which goes on leisure journeys. Perhaps make them pay the full cost... and then close them when no-one wants to travel.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I think it is a great shame that we ( this generation ) have not had the forethought to preserve
some of the first generation EMUs, in 50 yrs time people will look on this stuff as we now think
about the Chesham set, and a lot of the carriages in preservation
I blame the NRM for not taking an example of many post steam locos I am sure they could be stored in a shed some ware to be re-cond when they became of interest look at the new builds,10000 the baby Deltic recreating what was lost
I think it is sad that no 1960s 25kv units are preserved complete, I remember a trip to Southend for a meeting in about 1984 on 302-214 ex works in green with original seats, I thought it was refurbed
for preservation ..sadly lost, and the 309s just a few odd coaches left they should have saved a 4 car set

It is feasible to make one 309 a 4 car again. There is a ex 309 carraige at West coast. But it is down to money and wether West coast want to sell.

The big problem with EMU is a similar problem to most preservation. Where do you store said item. The closest i would say anything comes to a equivlent EMU is the Quad arts at North Norfolk. They had to go under very heavy restoration and need a under cover building to store them. What makes it more difficult with EMUs is compatability. As EMU's are air braked where as most preserved lines run vacuum. It is feasible to haul a EMU on preserved line, but how many want to do that is a different question (listed earlier in the thread who does).

Sure you could preseve a front carraige (i say front as some are motored, some are not) but is that representivite? A good case of the is policy is the NRM what with the 4COR, Oekrilon, 3SUB Augmented etc. I know on the list of preservation is the front coach of the 442 which has been designated to be preserved. But i seem to recall it has been offered around quite a bit.

Then the opposite end of the end of the arugment you have the 2HAP, 2BIL and Class 306 at the NRM/Outposts. These take up ALOT of room compared to a standard size train. Eg your standard coach takes up roughly 60ft (Varies from builder/railway/era etc). Where as two of the EMUs listed is at least 120ft and the 306 being over 175ft.

Under cover storage is not cheap. Hence why the 4SUB and 503 have the ongoing appeal of £750 a month (See - https://www.hett.org.uk/support-us)

Intersting point on the above about being preserved by private individuals and organisations (yorksrob). I did some reasearch into this a few years ago. It is not commonly known which EMU was the first preserved. I did managed to work this out. The 1st one was the Oekrilon (by the NRM). The next preserved was the 4DD by private initiative (3DD techincally as it was two outer ends and one centre coach). I will see if i can find my research some where.

 

[Journeyman]

And you forget the wider context of railway preservation at the time. Very few vehicles have been officially preserved as part of the national collection. Most of that achieved (of steam and diesel locos for example) has been preserved by private individuals and organisations with a view to running on private steam railways. Some electric vehicles did make it to the national collection at the time, but given the overall situation and the lack of any preserved electric railways for them to run on, it's impressive that BR managed to preserve and run the electric units it did - and as such, there were a small selection from all over the network.

But you've been saying BR were brilliant at it and the privatised railway was terrible at it, when in almost all cases the final runs of "preserved" EMUs was under BR, long before privatisation.

A significant exception was First Great Eastern keeping the 306 going into the 21st century, which is pretty impressive, and disproves your theory that the privatised railway is to blame for historic units being scrapped.

These trains were never "preserved" anyway, in most cases they were depot pets created out of last-surviving class members, and were operated as long as it didn't cost anything in terms of effort or parts. The SUB was last overhauled properly in 1983, and was kept going because (a) it wasn't used very often, (b) many parts were common to EPBs and (c) there were staff around who knew how to maintain and drive it. BR weren't heroic preservationists, it was just relatively easy and cheap to dig the unit out occasionally. Those conditions no longer apply.

 

[yorksrob]

But you've been saying BR were brilliant at it and the privatised railway was terrible at it, when in almost all cases the final runs of "preserved" EMUs was under BR, long before privatisation.

A significant exception was First Great Eastern keeping the 306 going into the 21st century, which is pretty impressive, and disproves your theory that the privatised railway is to blame for historic units being scrapped.

These trains were never "preserved" anyway, in most cases they were depot pets created out of last-surviving class members, and were operated as long as it didn't cost anything in terms of effort or parts. The SUB was last overhauled properly in 1983, and was kept going because (a) it wasn't used very often, (b) many parts were common to EPBs and (c) there were staff around who knew how to maintain and drive it. BR weren't heroic preservationists, it was just relatively easy and cheap to dig the unit out occasionally. Those conditions no longer apply.

Fair play to Great Eastern for perservering in that case. So we have the 306 and the 4SUB that survived on the railway to the end of BR.

 

[Wolfie]

If you're going down that route, why is arts stuff (ballet, theatre etc) subsidised? It's a minority interest.

Come to think of it, huge chunks of the railway run based on subsidy, a chunk of which goes on leisure journeys. Perhaps make them pay the full cost... and then close them when no-one wants to travel.

There are valid, albeit even those are debated, social reasons for subsidising a public service railway. Heritage trains though....

 

[43096]

There are valid, albeit even those are debated, social reasons for subsidising a public service railway. Heritage trains though....

I notice you totally ignore my point about other minority interests being subsidised.

 

[colchesterken]

It was said that the class 306 was hidden by Ilford depot manager to be used as "a training project " well done that man. As to how much interest they generate, anyone go on the specials when G E ran them from Liv St to Gidea Park, on a couple of Sat, per year. Loads of enthusiasts and the general public had a look of "what is that" on their faces
As to storage I nominate Harwich Town loads of space and some derelict sidings cover them with a B&Q shop type shed. the cost would be within the £4m they spent on Flying Scotsman

 

[superjohn]

It was said that the class 306 was hidden by Ilford depot manager to be used as "a training project " well done that man. As to how much interest they generate, anyone go on the specials when G E ran them from Liv St to Gidea Park, on a couple of Sat, per year. Loads of enthusiasts and the general public had a look of "what is that" on their faces
As to storage I nominate Harwich Town loads of space and some derelict sidings cover them with a B&Q shop type shed. the cost would be within the £4m they spent on Flying Scotsman

Flying Scotsman has the potential to return at least some of that cost. Restoring and maintaining an EMU to mainline standards would cost far more than any running days could come close to supporting. Things were different in BR days, such things were a marginal cost activity using resources that already existed and usually done in the name of apprenticeship training. Nowadays you would need a viable business plan.

The ideal time for EMU preservation was when the first generation types were withdrawn. They could relatively easily be used as hauled stock. The fact that so few were actually saved speaks volumes.

 

[Wolfie]

I notice you totally ignore my point about other minority interests being subsidised.

I did for the very good reason that it was frankly tenuous as the same analogy could be extended to all public services. Why should the childless pay for schools for example?
The reality is that if taxpayers were asked to pay extra to support heritage operations on the ordinary railways the acceptance rate would be less than 1% of the population as l believe you very well know. Hell, given half a chance a big proportion would likely want serious cuts in existing railway spend.

 

[A0wen]

And you forget the wider context of railway preservation at the time. Very few vehicles have been officially preserved as part of the national collection. Most of that achieved (of steam and diesel locos for example) has been preserved by private individuals and organisations with a view to running on private steam railways. Some electric vehicles did make it to the national collection at the time, but given the overall situation and the lack of any preserved electric railways for them to run on, it's impressive that BR managed to preserve and run the electric units it did - and as such, there were a small selection from all over the network.

But people seem to feel the need rubbish those achievements, perhaps because they make the modern railway look not very dynamic in that respect.

No - BR didn't really "preserve" anything.

The 2BIL you cited was a member of the National Collection when it was running in the 80s.
The 306 was part of the National Collection and on loan when being run in the 80s.

The 4SUB is just about the only thing you could argue BR "preserved".

BR didn't "preserve" anything else - they repainted a couple of units in a retro livery. Nothing more. The 4EPB you keep banging on about being a case in point - it was withdrawn with the rest of the surviving 4EPBs in 1995, until that point it was an operational EMU, not preserved in any way, shape or form.

People aren't "rubbishing" BR achievements - they're rubbishing your argument that BR "achieved" something in this space where the facts really don't support your argument. But as ever you're doing your normal trick of either denying reality or shifting the goalposts to suit your argument.

If you're going down that route, why is arts stuff (ballet, theatre etc) subsidised? It's a minority interest.

Come to think of it, huge chunks of the railway run based on subsidy, a chunk of which goes on leisure journeys. Perhaps make them pay the full cost... and then close them when no-one wants to travel.

Arguably heritage railways *are* subsidised because they can and usually do register as charities which affords them various concessions from the government e.g. gift aid. There are also grants available from various heritage bodies to assist with all sorts of things, which much of the heritage sector accesses. To pretend they aren't "subsidised" where other things are is somewhat disingenuous.