Preserved EMU Question

[A0wen]

every one has a valid argument for and against but this forum really does attract emu haters more than anywhere else

even the mention of a wessex sets people off as to how they should all be scrapped never to be seen again because of how rubbish they are

I think that's a bit harsh - it's not so much "haters" as actually trying to point out a few salient facts about the realities and practicalities of EMU preservation / heritage use.

We've seen the complaints upthread about EPB 5001 - but it was offered for sale and nobody wanted to buy it. You can't force a preservation group or heritage railway to buy something they don't want. And those who keep on bemoaning its loss seem not to understand that.

The Wessex 442s have done over 30 years - from a public transport perspective they are life expired and there are other, newer 3rd rail EMUs which make far more sense for TOCs to use. So again, what happens to them ? Well, logically scrap. You can't run them away from the 3rd rail and they aren't really suitable for replacing any older stock. Converting them to anything else would be expensive and take time - and convert them to what ? No point in converting them to OHL EMUs - there's no shortage of those at present. Loco-haul stock ? Well when there are Mk3s and Mk4s already available and Mk5s coming on stream, what practical point would it serve ?

And then we come back to the cry "but BR ran specials with heritage EMUs" with the clear insinuation it's all the nasty privatised railway which is stopping this happening - but the truth, as ever, isn't as clear cut as that. Most of those "heritage" units BR did run were out of service by 1990 - only the 4SUB and 306 worked after that time. And unlike steam or diesel units, EMUs (of all types) are not of interest to the heritage railways, they don't attract the casual visitor, they are impractical to use and operate - even the Great Central, probably one of the most versatile and practical of the heritage lines struggled to make use of the 4BIG they had.

It's about being practical - and unfortunately EMUs aren't practical in the heritage or preserved scene in the way steam or diesel locos and units are.

 

[VEP3417]

class 442s could be loco hauled for a tour, but again that idea was a no go,
im not just being optimistic but having read this thread and various 442 ones they really are hated,
all the replies ever said are along the lines of (and this goes for most emu ideas)

it wont be done
it cant be done
the trains are horrid things
no body wants an emu tour
everything after the 50s shouldnt be preserved because no ones interested
steam is king and all the time/effort/money should be spend on their upkeep

but in reality thats only 1 side of the argument, but that 1 side had the majority behind it so people just end up giving up on the discussion because theyre it just goes round in circles

at this moment in time, steam has gained the most interest, and i can see why there really is nothing else like it, but does that mean everything after steam should be forgotten about just because its a bit more tricky to make it work...

isnt there someone restoring a refurbished 4 cep back to br green with the guards area re instated behind the cabs?
that would make a lovely main line tour....

class 442 with a 73....job done

it has to be said though, this year in particular lots of companies got rid of "anything old" including some emus so it must have been hard to choose which ones to preserve and which not to as there was just too many being scrapped at 1 time to take 1 of each

 

[JKF]

Aren’t a lot of the older southern EMus compartment stock? I would have thought that would be popular with heritage railways to give things a vintage feel, open Mk1/Mk2 stock doesn’t feel as vintage. Can it only be hauled by 33/1 or 73s?

 

[A0wen]

Aren’t a lot of the older southern EMus compartment stock? I would have thought that would be popular with heritage railways to give things a vintage feel, open Mk1/Mk2 stock doesn’t feel as vintage. Can it only be hauled by 33/1 or 73s?

Don't forget most of the slam door stock was withdrawn almost 20 years ago. It's not like it's recently withdrawn and available for use.

 

[zwk500]

class 442s could be loco hauled for a tour, but again that idea was a no go,

...

it has to be said though, this year in particular lots of companies got rid of "anything old" including some emus so it must have been hard to choose which ones to preserve and which not to as there was just too many being scrapped at 1 time to take 1 of each

You still haven't addressed the issue of what tour you'd run, where capacity is available that would give a journey enough people would be willing to pay for.

Most tours make money on the 1st class dining experience, and the rest is just to fill up the numbers. I don't see that happening with a 4BIG or 442. Also 442s have gauging issues all over the network.

 

[Journeyman]

I think that's a bit harsh - it's not so much "haters" as actually trying to point out a few salient facts about the realities and practicalities of EMU preservation / heritage use.

We've seen the complaints upthread about EPB 5001 - but it was offered for sale and nobody wanted to buy it. You can't force a preservation group or heritage railway to buy something they don't want. And those who keep on bemoaning its loss seem not to understand that.

Absolutely. On top of that, I'd ask those bewailing the loss of 5001 - could you have done something to save it? If you could have done, and didn't, I don't think you have much right to complain.

Also, I don't think there's necessarily room for 4732 and 5001 in the preservation world. I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but 5001 wasn't particularly special. I know it was the very first unit to be fitted with what became the Southern's standard control system, but it ended up becoming extremely common, and 5001 wasn't unique or unusual in any way. In terms of what it represents, i.e. a particular style of suburban travel, 4732 is almost identical.

In any case, no less than four 2-EPB units survive.

The Wessex 442s have done over 30 years - from a public transport perspective they are life expired and there are other, newer 3rd rail EMUs which make far more sense for TOCs to use. So again, what happens to them ? Well, logically scrap. You can't run them away from the 3rd rail and they aren't really suitable for replacing any older stock. Converting them to anything else would be expensive and take time - and convert them to what ? No point in converting them to OHL EMUs - there's no shortage of those at present. Loco-haul stock ? Well when there are Mk3s and Mk4s already available and Mk5s coming on stream, what practical point would it serve ?

People seem to ignore the fact that the 442s aren't going to return to service because the AC retractioning project has hit very significant difficulties that clearly can't be easily resolved. Will preservationists be able to deal with that?!? Some of the remaining DC power cars have been scrapped.

And then we come back to the cry "but BR ran specials with heritage EMUs" with the clear insinuation it's all the nasty privatised railway which is stopping this happening - but the truth, as ever, isn't as clear cut as that. Most of those "heritage" units BR did run were out of service by 1990 - only the 4SUB and 306 worked after that time. And unlike steam or diesel units, EMUs (of all types) are not of interest to the heritage railways, they don't attract the casual visitor, they are impractical to use and operate - even the Great Central, probably one of the most versatile and practical of the heritage lines struggled to make use of the 4BIG they had.

It's about being practical - and unfortunately EMUs aren't practical in the heritage or preserved scene in the way steam or diesel locos and units are.

True - a number of heritage railways have EMUs, but they very, very rarely get used. That said, although there are some very significant gaps (especially in terms of 25kV units), there's an excellent representative sample of preserved EMUs out there. Off the top of my head, and talking about Southern Electric units alone, we have...

• 1925 Southern suburban driving motor car (representing pioneering electrification schemes)
• Complete 2-BIL unit (representing 1930s semi-fast units)
• Complete 4-COR unit, along with several individual vehicles (representing first generation express stock)
• Almost all Brighton Belle vehicles survive, with some undergoing restoration for main line running (with some significant compromises on originality, admittedly). Also a couple of Pullmans from 6-PUL units survive.
• A 1940 Waterloo and City Line driving car
• Two 4-DD driving cars, which I would argue are two of the most historically significant railway vehicles ever in this country.
• A complete 4-SUB
• 3 remaining vehicles of a 4-EPB (other vehicle is a spares donor for the SUB) (admittedly this one is endangered)
• 4 complete 2-EPB vehicles, including all three significant sub-variants - the best-represented class of EMU in preservation by a long way
• A 2-HAP, recently extensively restored at Shildon, representing the NSE era
• Multiple BEP and CEP vehicles, including a complete unit being "unrefurbished" and restored to original condition
• A complete 4-VEP undergoing restoration, and several other VEP vehicles
• At least one complete 4-CIG, and a number of other BIG/CIG vehicles, including a buffet operational in the Hastings unit
• I think there's a project underway to restore a 4-TC
• At least three complete Island Line class 483s

After writing that list, I'm not happy to entertain complaints that EMUs are neglected in preservation. That's an incredible cross-section of Southern Electric history. I know none are likely to operate under their own power again, but for anyone who wants to see what the SR was like, that's a huge wealth of material. Find me another part of the railway that well-represented!

 

[43096]

Absolutely. On top of that, I'd ask those bewailing the loss of 5001 - could you have done something to save it? If you could have done, and didn't, I don't think you have much right to complain.

You can't ask that question!

There's a lot of people with a lot to say on the subject of preservation, but who suddenly become very quiet and develop short arms when asked to contribute and/or dip into their pockets to actually do something. Essentially they are very good at expecting others to do things using other people's money.

All the Facebook 'likes', Twitter and web forum comments in the world won't save a train for preservation.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I feel it is slightly unfair to compare a full EMU to a single coach. Admittedly a single coach doesn't need to be stored with anything else, but to make it useful it does at least require a locomotive...

I feel this points to the fact that looking into the possibility of loco-hauled EMUs is something EMU preservationists should be doing.

My point was not to compare to a single coach. More the point was how much space they take up. Storage does not come cheap (Example being the 4SUB and the 503 are both undercover at present).

On the above post by Joruneyman (good post by the way), some of the EMU's that are in preservation would not of survived if they had not entered departmental service, Eg tyneside epb, class 457, class 501 etc.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I wouldn't like to see the mistakes of the past repeated with overhead line EMUs, I'd like to see examples of the Mk3 EMUs preserved for future generations and not just forgotten like 305s and the like.

 

[Journeyman]

I wouldn't like to see the mistakes of the past repeated with overhead line EMUs, I'd like to see examples of the Mk3 EMUs preserved for future generations and not just forgotten like 305s and the like.

Agreed, I think they were a very important step in train development. Time is already running out fast for them.

 

[A0wen]

I wouldn't like to see the mistakes of the past repeated with overhead line EMUs, I'd like to see examples of the Mk3 EMUs preserved for future generations and not just forgotten like 305s and the like.

And who do you propose should preserve them and how will they be used or displayed?

If anything they're even less practical than the older EMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And who do you propose should preserve them and how will they be used or displayed?

If anything they're even less practical than the older EMUs.

This is the problem with anything more recent. PEP EMUs and Mk3 EMUs just aren't interesting - indeed PEPs in particular don't look very old (though Mk3 EMUs seem more dated to the 80s/90s for some reason). People by and large want steam locomotives and Mk1s.

With regard to running them they could either be loco-hauled or have batteries fitted.

I suspect preserving of 150s will hit similar barriers - Pacers are quirky and interesting to some, 150s are just mundane (though practical). And if you've preserved a 150/2 you haven't got something vastly different from half a 455.

 

[Journeyman]

This is the problem with anything more recent. PEP EMUs and Mk3 EMUs just aren't interesting - indeed PEPs in particular don't look very old (though Mk3 EMUs seem more dated to the 80s/90s for some reason). People by and large want steam locomotives and Mk1s.

I think this is a bit simplistic. For a long time, Mark 1s were the staple of both BR services and heritage railways, and were frequently derided as boring. Mark 1s are now quite exotic to the many people who never had the dubious experience of travelling on a shabby one on a BR secondary route in the seventies or eighties.

Those Mark 3 EMUs will seem fascinating to someone someday.

With regard to running them they could either be loco-hauled or have batteries fitted.

I suspect preserving of 150s will hit similar barriers - Pacers are quirky and interesting to some, 150s are just mundane (though practical). And if you've preserved a 150/2 you haven't got something vastly different from half a 455.

I think a few 150s would be very deserving of preservation, but I agree, they show off the development of the Mark 3 multiple unit in a way that a heritage railway can actually use.

 

[A0wen]

This is the problem with anything more recent. PEP EMUs and Mk3 EMUs just aren't interesting - indeed PEPs in particular don't look very old (though Mk3 EMUs seem more dated to the 80s/90s for some reason). People by and large want steam locomotives and Mk1s.

With regard to running them they could either be loco-hauled or have batteries fitted.

I suspect preserving of 150s will hit similar barriers - Pacers are quirky and interesting to some, 150s are just mundane (though practical). And if you've preserved a 150/2 you haven't got something vastly different from half a 455.

I think all the variants of Mk3 DMUs will find homes in presevation as will a couple of 16x's - but the EMUs will have the perennial problem of not being able to move under their own power - and building battery gen sets will take time and money - the latter being the challenge for most heritage railways.

 

[JonathanH]

I think all the variants of Mk3 DMUs will find homes in presevation as will a couple of 16x's - but the EMUs will have the perennial problem of not being able to move under their own power - and building battery gen sets will take time and money - the latter being the challenge for most heritage railways.

That is where the 769 will come into its own. However, the big problem will be managing the corrosion issues. Clearly that is a problem for a Mark 1 but they are fairly well understood. A Mark 3 EMU will be something more of a challenge.

There was a posting on here about using a 317 to recreate a 210 but that seems a fairly ambitious project.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Whoever is doing the 317 /210 thing, GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Cowley]

Whoever is doing the 317 /210 thing, GOOD LUCK!!

You’ve been put down as heading up the financial task force Paul, but don’t worry. We’ve hopefully got the translator vehicles in hand...

 

[yorksrob]

This is the problem with anything more recent. PEP EMUs and Mk3 EMUs just aren't interesting - indeed PEPs in particular don't look very old (though Mk3 EMUs seem more dated to the 80s/90s for some reason). People by and large want steam locomotives and Mk1s.

With regard to running them they could either be loco-hauled or have batteries fitted.

I suspect preserving of 150s will hit similar barriers - Pacers are quirky and interesting to some, 150s are just mundane (though practical). And if you've preserved a 150/2 you haven't got something vastly different from half a 455.

It doesn't help that they were all built with all the windows in the wrong places. Nevertheless, it would be a big gap if some weren't preserved.

 

[A0wen]

That is where the 769 will come into its own. However, the big problem will be managing the corrosion issues. Clearly that is a problem for a Mark 1 but they are fairly well understood. A Mark 3 EMU will be something more of a challenge.

There was a posting on here about using a 317 to recreate a 210 but that seems a fairly ambitious project.

I wouldn't be too sure about the 769 for two reasons.

Firstly they're only just coming into service, so they could do another 15-20 years on the National network, particularly if their operating costs are low. At the end of that they will be life expired and in need of significant refurbishment.

If they do less, chances are it'll be because their reliability has fallen off a cliff and that won't appeal to many heritage lines.

The other problem is they are fixed formation 4 car sets - most DMUs on heritage railways are 2 car. You're back to having to accomodate a long, fixed formation set which most railways don't have the infrastructure to do.

 

[VEP3417]

You still haven't addressed the issue of what tour you'd run, where capacity is available that would give a journey enough people would be willing to pay for.

Most tours make money on the 1st class dining experience, and the rest is just to fill up the numbers. I don't see that happening with a 4BIG or 442. Also 442s have gauging issues all over the network.

the lt 4tc dosnt have fine dining
the thumper dosnt have fine dining

both of thos always sell out very quickly, one has a buffet and thats all thats needed really, soggy br sandwiches and all

as for where....london to weymouth seems a good start

but its all just dreams, as for every 1 person who has a positive idea or discussion to say about emus theres 5 people who who dont like them and will never like them

a full nse heritage line.....now theres an idea

 

[WAO]

a full nse heritage line.....now theres an idea

That in my experience is the fundamental problem, security and control of a suitable site.

SR EMU's (and many others) have their interest base in or near the South East where land is expensive and railways tended not to close. The ones that did were either preserved or redeveloped piecemeal. Finmere and Coventry even if a little remote were both attempts to secure a site but ended by demand for the land.

A freehold storage and restoration facility alongside an existing friendly heritage line would be my choice.

Main line running is a different leisure market and a long way off, other than for the Belle, which is really a custom re-build, rather than a preservation project.

WAO

 

[VEP3417]

A freehold storage and restoration facility alongside an existing friendly heritage line would be my choice.

could happen but also might not as space is probably at a premium and they would more likely prefer a steam train to be placed there rather than an emu as it would be "more in keeping"

but thats another topic as to weather heritage railways would consider newer items, i know some already do ect but for the most part is mostly steam with the odd splattering of diesel

 

[A0wen]

a full nse heritage line.....now theres an idea

Probably a good job enthusiasts who were peddling the idea of the Dunstable branch to be a heritage line didn't think of it - just think they could have electrified Dunstable - Luton at 750v DC which given the area would probably have taken out a chunk of the less law abiding members of that community who would be trying to remove or vandalise things.

For the younger readers around here who don't remember the sheer nonsense which was proposed for Dunstable here's a thread > https://railforums.co.uk/threads/luton-dunstable-railway-dual-use-solution.39821/

That said, if they are still around and looking for a project, the Croxley Green branch would now appear to be available as TFL are unlikely to extend the Met to Watford Junction anytime before hell freezes over - that was once a 3rd rail line too. They could get within spitting distance of the NR Watford line at Wiggenhall Road and using a very long, heavy duty jump lead connect it to the NR 3rd rail and power their own line....... what's not to like ?

 

[D6130]

A preserved Southern EMU wouldn't look too out of place on the Bluebell line as Horsted Keynes - or at least one of its Platforms - was electrified for over thirty years from Haywards Heath via Ardingly. However, arranging a third rail power supply to enable it to run under its own "steam" would be a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[RichJF]

A preserved Southern EMU wouldn't look too out of place on the Bluebell line as Horsted Keynes - or at least one of its Platforms - was electrified for over thirty years from Haywards Heath via Ardingly. However, arranging a third rail power supply to enable it to run under its own "steam" would be a whole different kettle of fish.

Well it appears the Bluebell have acquired a Class 33 that will move to the railway. If you run it with the 4-Vep they own then you've got your preserved EMU, albeit with diesel propulsion but still prototypically correct!

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/soc/notices/diesel_developments_29jun21.pdf

 

[D6130]

Can it only be hauled by 33/1 or 73s?

Could be hauled by any air-braked diesel, electric - or, for that matter steam - locomotive, but not in multiple unit/push-pull mode. you would have to use brake/main reservoir pipe extension hoses and the loco would have to run round at the end of each journey.

 

[colchesterken]

I have a soft spot ( no the whole of me is soft for the 306 ) it was my first train to work. My understanding is that it was passed to Great Eastern on privatisation
they allowed it to stay at Ilford and provided the back up to keep it going but no paid workers, When National Express took on the franchise the dropped the cooperation
and it was then it came into the hands of the NRM, they had the asbestos removed at Eastleigh. it then went to EARM for storage
I went to visit on the first open day after delivery and chatted to one of the Ilford fitters who worked on it, he said they wanted to keep it safe but could not get any agreement between EARM and NRM as to how and what
Sadly it was stored on the open and not even covered up. I used to go and visit it from time to time, it was like visiting an old friend in an hospice sad to see that a unit that survived in working order for over 10 yrs was left to rot. At one point the doors on the driving coach were open
At least it is safe and will get a coat of paint, sad that at the time it arrived at EARM not too much work was required to get it working
I have a VHS tape of it running on a special day Col to Walton my prized tape

 

[306024]

That's a fair summation of the 306. At privatisation it was owned by Angel Trains who leased it to First Great Eastern for £1 a year.

National Express declared there was no room at Ilford for it as they were moving the West Anglia fleet from Hornsey to Ilford to save money. The best to hope for now is the NRM restore it as a static exhibit.

 

[A0wen]

That's a fair summation of the 306. At privatisation it was owned by Angel Trains who leased it to First Great Eastern for £1 a year.

National Express declared there was no room at Ilford for it as they were moving the West Anglia fleet from Hornsey to Ilford to save money. The best to hope for now is the NRM restore it as a static exhibit.

Bit in bold - You sure about that ?

According to the Class 315 preservation society:

"Following the privatisation of British Rail the first 43 units were assigned to First Great Eastern with the last 18 (844 to 861) passing to West Anglia Great Northern, operated by Prism Rail and these units moved in to the care of WAGNs Hornsey Depot."

and

"In April 2004 the WAGN franchise was split up with the West Anglia route becoming part of the One Railway franchise along with Great Eastern and Anglia Railways, operated by National Express and the 18 West Anglia units returned to their spiritual home at Ilford Depot."

This suggests in BR days, West Anglia units were serviced by Ilford, at privatisation West Anglia was tied up with Great Northern so the units needed on the WA line were serviced from Hornsey, which makes sense and they reverted to Ilford when WA was put back into the Anglia franchise, which was when National Express took over in 2004. Not sure it was necessarily cost saving, more bringing all the maintenance into the TOCs control.

Homepage - Class 315 Preservation Society - Class 315 Preservation Society

Welcome to the Class 315 Preservation Society The Class 315 EMU has carried thousands, if not millions of people in and out of London Liverpool Street over it’s expansive career. Our aim is to preserve and restore 315856, so future generations can experience what travel was like at a time before...

www.class315preservationsociety.com

 

[O L Leigh]

Bit in bold - You sure about that ?

Yes that is correct.

The 18 WAGN Cl315s had been transferred to Hornsey for maintenance, but at the start of the enlarged Greater Anglia franchise (not to be confused with the TOC of the same name) they were transferred back to Ilford along with all of the WA division's Cl317s. It was this influx of additional units (Cl317s had never been allocated to Ilford prior to this), together with GE's Cl360s which had not been present at the time while the WAGN allocation was away at Hornsey, that signalled the end of Ilford's care of the Cl306.