Scotrail flexipass fraud - how bad is it?

[Failed Unit]

Trying not to sidetrack another thread. How bad is the fraud on the flexipass? I admit I don't put the date on it until I board the train, but always as soon as I do, but that is more that I may decide not to travel if disruption is happening. I always need to use a barrier anyway at Queen Street. However some of the storys I hear are bad!

At Waverley your train leaves from platform 10 for example so use the ticket through the barrier the following day.

Go to the manaul barrier when busy and barge through.

Use a station in Glasgow with no barrier. Such as high street when you really want Queen Street

Delibrately look for which set the gaurd is not in and go for it.

Is this loss of revenue bad enough to have the ticket withdrawn? Is it just the minority trying it on giving everyone a bad name? I certainly think the smart card will solve the issue but as I said on the other thread they only seem to be using it on seasons which have very low fraud.

 

[rail-britain]

The abuse is actually quite small now
It was extremely bad during the 1980s and 1990s, as many people would not cross the boxes and equally many ticket examiners were not fussed

However, some ticket examiners were forcing ticket holders to back-date the boxes as they were travelling several days later and no boxes had crosses in them, and that ticket examiner had seen them on another train during that time

With the current tickets and barrier systems, a ticket is only required if you intend to travel (as stated on the platform signage)
I have used this several times to access the platforms without a ticket
I have also used this several times at Glasgow QS, even though I hold a ticket to travel at some stage in the day

 

[CarterUSM]

The abuse is big enough to prevent it being introduced on more routes. Also, a recent fraud and security operation at Bishopbriggs found nearly 70 passengers alighting from services having not filled their flexi passes out. That is by no means a small amount of abuse. In any given day i work over a route with flexi passes i will encounter at least 60-70 percent who haven't filled out the ticket. Officially, the pass should be cancelled and a new one filled out, or a standard single/return issued, but this os rarely done now. I'm happy to fill it out for the passenger and give them a friendly reminder, bt if i come across them reguarly in a short space of time failing to endorse their own ticket i will do the above. ScotRail is taking the abuse of these tickets very seriously at the moment, that is for sure.

 

[michael769]

I have seen a several people having their passes confiscated and being forced to pay the full fare when a guard caught them writing the date on as he arrived to check their ticket, recently on the E-G shuttle - so there seems to be some kind of crackdown at the moment.

 

[rail-britain]

Bishopbriggs found nearly 70 passengers alighting from services having not filled their flexi passes out

Are you sure that is not just a total for any and all ticket type infractions
I very much doubt such an operation at this station would pickup so many, unless it was for an extended amount of time
Equally, for this station a SPT season ticket is more likely than a flexipass

I have been present at some such operations
The most common is simply "no ticket" for various reasons
The number of flexipass presented is very low

 

[CarterUSM]

Just to add, ScotRail said at one of their meet the managers sessions that fraudulent use of these tickets was at an unacceptable level, and would not consider introducing it on to other routes, for example Ayr-Glasgow, until more robust procedures were in place. No idea what 'more robust' means, but flexi passes are mentioned at every briefing, and there are prominent notices up on the commercial boards about them.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is at the moment the gastapo where at Glasgow the other week. But I don't see it unreasonable writing the date on the ticket once you join the train, as long as you do it ASAP. I guess if you travelled from Linlithgow and you fill it in at Croy that may be viewed as trying it on.

I find the bishopsbridge fraud odd. Glasgow queen street has barriers unless that is the got to high street or charing cross mob.

 

[CarterUSM]

Are you sure that is not just a total for any and all ticket type infractions
I very much doubt such an operation at this station would pickup so many, unless it was for an extended amount of time
Equally, for this station a SPT season ticket is more likely than a flexipass

I have been present at some such operations
The most common is simply "no ticket" for various reasons
The number of flexipass presented is very low

I'll check the details of it as soon as i can , but the operation was in response to flexipass misuse and stopping short to avoid payment and checks. There was another operation done at one other station around the same time, but i cannot remember where. But as i said, the company now deem there to be 'unacceptable levels of misuse' but there is no doubt they still love the upfront money.

 

[rail-britain]

I don't see it unreasonable writing the date on the ticket once you join the train

One of the issues with this type of ticket is that it assumes you are travelling with a working pen
I know most ticket examiners have a pen, so therefore the passenger should ask to borrow this pen in order to complete the process

I pointed out this flaw many years ago, which applies to such tickets
The response I had was that a passenger should do this before boarding the train
To that I then asked, what if the passenger does not have a pen and boards at a station which is unmanned, to which there was no response

As per my previous response, you could board a train with the intention of travelling, but then have to get off that train
Therefore you would not need to complete the entry until the service has commenced
This is the issue they are trying to resolve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll check the details of it as soon as i can , but the operation was in response to flexipass misuse and stopping short to avoid payment and checks

There have been such checks carried out at Springburn, Scotstoun, and Mount Florida

Mount Florida returned the most passengers travelling with either no ticket, the wrong type of ticket, wrong destination, or other ticketing discrepancies
In all three operations a ticket examiner, senior revenue protection officer from First ScotRail, and uniformed police officer were present
38 cases have been referred to the COPFS, so far 7 of those have been accepted, 3 have now been disposed

 

[Failed Unit]

That has alway been my issue about filling it in at home. You get to the station find mega disruption so you don't travel. Your ticket is worthless as you have dated it. I know this kind of disruption doesn't happen everyday but is fairly likely in the winter if snow is forecast.

 

[CarterUSM]

Easily solved. Give a pen out with purchase. Not having a pen is a pretty poor excuse when filling it in is part of it terms and conditions. Having said that, i think its more than acceptable to fill it out when you board, funny how half the folk who board at X won't even acknowledge you asking to check it, because they hope you won't mark it, or even see it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There have been such checks carried out at Springburn, Scotstoun, and Mount Florida

Mount Florida returned the most passengers travelling with either no ticket, the wrong type of ticket, wrong destination, or other ticketing discrepancies
In all three operations a ticket examiner, senior revenue protection officer from First ScotRail, and uniformed police officer were present
38 cases have been referred to the COPFS, so far 7 of those have been accepted, 3 have now been disposed

Not sure, but Springburn maybe rings a bell, it wasn't on the southside anyway. I'm surprised Central, isn't top of the discrepancies league there as ops are carried out at Crossmyloof and Johnstone semi regularly also. Amazing the amount of people who travel from those stations every day..........

 

[Greenback]

On two occasions I attempted to fill the date in while on the train. Both times I made a mess, once because the pen was 'cold' and wouldn't write properly, with the result looking as though I'd altered the date, and the other time the train jolted me while writing which again looked like it altered the date.

The first occasion was in the Netherlands in 1993, when the guard let me off because I was a tourist, and the second time was in Scotland in 1994, when my explanation of the rough ride was accepted. Since then, however, I have always written dates in the box before getting on the train!

 

[scotsman]

Write it on the platform?

Lean on your knee? A bench? A convenient wall?

 

[rail-britain]

On two occasions I attempted to fill the date in while on the train. Both times I made a mess, once because the pen was 'cold' and wouldn't write properly

I had a similar problem with the early Strathclyde Day Tripper ticket
I explained to the guard that I couldn't apply the date and asked him to do so
Unfortunately he filled in two days, in effect making the ticket void, and then had no idea what to do apologising profusely
He then advised that on arrival in Glasgow Central he would escort me down to the booking windows and get me a replacement ticket
The sales woman there also made a mess of that replacement ticket, "crikey, who designed these tickets"
Eventually she managed to mark one correctly
As I had some extra time I asked them to pass the void tickets for inspection and I would return later to find out if there was a solution
On my return they advised to obtain a receipt and to then get the guard on that first train to stamp that receipt
Thankfully, Strathclyde withdrew these tickets and were replaced by the scratch panels
Even those first ones were updated, as people scratched the wrong date, but scratching the day-name made it obvious what day it was intended for

So why aren't these used for flexipass?
I've suggested it several times, but it has never gone any further

 

[43167]

I once got a freedom of scotland at preston when on the way to scotland and the ticket issued had no boxes. I pointed out I needed boxes with it been a flexi rover and she agreed, but said any problems tell them to ring preston ticket office.

 

[rail-britain]

I once got a freedom of scotland at preston when on the way to scotland and the ticket issued had no boxes

I remember seeing a few of those whilst working in Aberdeen
My solution was simply to date stamp the ticket
I do remember one "passenger" giving me a load of verbal, "Do you want me to void your ticket?", er, er, er
This same person appeared the following week, again with a ticket with no boxes, but they only travelled one station

 

[CarterUSM]

I had a similar problem with the early Strathclyde Day Tripper ticket
I explained to the guard that I couldn't apply the date and asked him to do so
Unfortunately he filled in two days, in effect making the ticket void, and then had no idea what to do apologising profusely
He then advised that on arrival in Glasgow Central he would escort me down to the booking windows and get me a replacement ticket
The sales woman there also made a mess of that replacement ticket, "crikey, who designed these tickets"
Eventually she managed to mark one correctly
As I had some extra time I asked them to pass the void tickets for inspection and I would return later to find out if there was a solution
On my return they advised to obtain a receipt and to then get the guard on that first train to stamp that receipt
Thankfully, Strathclyde withdrew these tickets and were replaced by the scratch panels
Even those first ones were updated, as people scratched the wrong date, but scratching the day-name made it obvious what day it was intended for

So why aren't these used for flexipass?
I've suggested it several times, but it has never gone any further

Thats a pretty sensible suggestion too! It would perhaps solve the "i've no pen brigade", but those who don't want to even produce it would likely just not scratch it anyway, and i find myself scratching daytrippers more often than not also. On another note, the amount of types of flexipass used to be rather numerous, over the past few months, i've only come across the booking office ticket type, and the predominately white with blue writing paper type. Used to sell them out the avantix too, but not any longer.

 

[rail-britain]

Another suggestion, which I have yet to refine
Issue specific tickets for specific days or numbers of journeys
If its six journeys, you get six tickets
If it is six days, then you present it and exchange it for a "live" ticket for that day

Remember the whole idea is to reduce fraud, and to eliminate the abuse

The main issue with a flexipass is that is purchased in advance
The original solution was to prevent purchase more than seven days in advance

The next issue is to prevent re-use of the same ticket
If separate tickets are issued (as above), then the automated barriers will make this much easier to identify and process

 

[CarterUSM]

Another suggestion, which I have yet to refine
Issue specific tickets for specific days or numbers of journeys
If its six journeys, you get six tickets
If it is six days, then you present it and exchange it for a "live" ticket for that day

Remember the whole idea is to reduce fraud, and to eliminate the abuse

The main issue with a flexipass is that is purchased in advance
The original solution was to prevent purchase more than seven days in advance

The next issue is to prevent re-use of the same ticket
If separate tickets are issued (as above), then the automated barriers will make this much easier to identify and process

I like the sound of it, though i'd issue vouchers for 6 journeys too, redeemable for a 'live' ticket at the booking office or on train.

 

[Failed Unit]

Again the smart card will do that load up 10 tickets on the card. Validate them by swiping in and out. Charge full fare if you are on the train without swiping in. Simple. Why transport Scotland are not doing it on the e&g now where the equipment exists is a mystery to me. Unless they are trying to avoid providing train crew smart card readers at the moment. We know smart cards work for seasons. Look at London so why transport Scotland need to test this?

 

[rail-britain]

Again the smart card will do that load up 10 tickets on the card. Validate them by swiping in and out

That assumes you are going to travel
As I have pointed out, you could pass through the barrier without a ticket
Equally, you could have used up one of your ticket allowance and not travelled
You would then need to go through the entire refund process, which without a ticket would be very difficult to process, which is probably why it has not been introduced, furthermore this would be open to abuse as well

For example, you hold a flexipass for Glasgow - Lenzie
You then only travel to Bishopbriggs
You then claim for a refund of the Glasgow - Lenzie journey
or
You hold a flexipass for Glasgow - Lenzie
On the train you then buy a single Glasgow - Bishopbriggs (the ticket examiner should be stunned as to why you are buying a ticket and how you got through the barrier)
You then claim for a refund of the Glasgow - Lenzie journey

I believe this is the fraud method you are referring to