Leeds - Morecambe service

[WestCoast]

Took a trip on this line today between Leeds and Lancaster, it was the usual Northern 144. While bouncing around on the pacer I couldn't help thinking how much potential this service has, after all it links the WCML and an ECML branch.

The passenger numbers were not huge and not many passengers joined at the intermediate stops except Skipton and Bentham. Wouldn't have thought the many stops, slowness and 144 attracts passengers though as its not the most comfortable on longer journeys (fine for short 45 -75 min but more than that it is not suited in my opinion).

The route is very pleasant and scenic and if the line speed is increased, does anyone think there is potential for extended transpennine or intercity routes using it?

 

[tbtc]

Good to see a thread about this line.

You get a lot of people enthusing about the Skipton - Colne line and the Settle - Carlisle line, but the route through Clapham (the real Clapham, not the one in London) is often neglected.

I'm not seriously suggesting that the 40 miles from Skipton to Carnforth are wired (based on the current service level) but it'd be a lot cheaper than the 85 from Skipton to Carlisle.

Ideally you'd look to have DMUs from Leeds to Barrow/ Windermere via this line, rather than doubling back down to Lancaster and then reversing to Morcambe.

Presumably it was once a major line, given the "Bradford on Sea" name that Morcambe used to have.

 

[142094]

When you think of Transpennine services these days, the biggest flows will be to Manchester and Liverpool from Leeds/York and the NE. There may be some sort of market for Leeds - Scotland via Preston, if the route was upgraded.

 

[driver9000]

Presumably it was once a major line, given the "Bradford on Sea" name that Morcambe used to have.

There used to be a junction at Wennington where trains could get to Lancaster (Green Ayre) and Morecambe via Halton. This line was heavily used by passenger trains (including the excursions) heading for Morecambe and freight for Heysham port. The line to Lancaster and the line to Morecambe through Scale Hall and Torrisholme closed in 1964 I think. Trains could also reach Lancaster Castle station from Green Ayre using the single line incline linking the two stations.

The line through Wennington is now controlled as a single block section under Absolute Block. The signal box at Wennington was abolished a few years ago after being switched out for many years, this would really hamper any plans to improve the service along the line unless someone deems it worthy of resignalling.

 

[GNERman]

Both the Settle - Carlisle and Hellifield - Lancaster sections have potential - if investments were put into these lines. Your problem is capacity and speed. Neither of these lines have great capacity and neither have great line speeds, the majority of which is around 60mph.

With investment in signalling and trackwork these have good potential for extra services.

The other slight problem would be capacity between Leeds and Skipton which is riddled with 4 tph stopping (2 for Bradford, 2 for Leeds), 1 or 2 tph fast (normally Keighley, Bingley, Shipley but also sometimes Steeton) and freight... Then there's capacity at Leeds Station which I won't go onto...

 

[xtradj]

its too rural to think about express services on the route

you already have the york - leeds - blackburn - preston - blackpool route which covers the north, and is mainly 158's. there you can change for lancaster at preston. surely alot quicker than going upto skipton

 

[blackfive460]

A slightly more frequent service with some trains turning back at Skipton might be the answer. Cross platform interchange between Platforms 3 & 4 would make the change at Skipton a reasonable option and would avoid the pathing issues in the Aire valley.

 

[John @ home]

you already have the york - leeds - blackburn - preston - blackpool route ... surely alot quicker than going upto skipton

No. There are three services daily which take less than 2 hours Leeds - Lancaster. All three go via Skipton.

 

[Greenback]

I think that this line certainly deserves a better service, both in terms of rolling stock and frequency than it currently gets.

Perhaps some thought could be given to a local stopping service between Morecambe and Skipton, with some limited stop faster trains as well.

There could be 4-5 local stoppers and 3-4 faster trains, or soemthing like that?

 

[Invincibles]

IF you could get a fast path out of Leeds then what are the likely journey times to Preston? How might sensible line speed improvements help that timing?

The reason I was wondering about this is that it could be a sensible alternative to the Calder Valley route and allow resources there to be used to provide better links between the many towns on that route.

I appreciate the Leeds issue is a big one though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

With the Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe services there is a lot of potential: if you were to introduce five expresses and five stoppers a day over it (keeping current line speeds etc), this would be a very good start. For example, the expresses could call at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield, Carnforth and Lancaster (and Bare Lane and Morecambe as necessary), and the stoppers at Shipley, Saltaire, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Steeton & Silsden, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Giggleswick, Clapham, Bentham, Wennington, Carnforth and Lancaster.
I know stock etc (isn’t it 144s?) is an issue, but there is so much potential here.

 

[brompton rail]

IF you could get a fast path out of Leeds then what are the likely journey times to Preston? How might sensible line speed improvements help that timing?

The reason I was wondering about this is that it could be a sensible alternative to the Calder Valley route and allow resources there to be used to provide better links between the many towns on that route.

I appreciate the Leeds issue is a big one though.

Morcambe services go via Carnforth and Lancaster is the closest they get to Preston.

 

[142094]

I think that this line certainly deserves a better service, both in terms of rolling stock and frequency than it currently gets.

Most of the time you could probably get away with a 153, or at most a 2 car 14x. Passenger numbers aren't great, but of course who's to say that they might improve if the service improves?

 

[tbtc]

I think that this line certainly deserves a better service, both in terms of rolling stock and frequency than it currently gets.

Perhaps some thought could be given to a local stopping service between Morecambe and Skipton, with some limited stop faster trains as well.

There could be 4-5 local stoppers and 3-4 faster trains, or soemthing like that?

With an hourly/ bi-hourly clockface service on the WCML services through Lancaster there's now more incentive to have a clockface bi-hourly service on this line west of Skipton (struggle for additional paths into Leeds, given all the freight on the S&C etc).

One thing not mentioned previously would be to run a bi-hourly extension of the Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Blackburn - Clitheroe service to Hellifield, Clapham, Carnforth, Lancaster,Morcambe (replacing most of the Leeds services) with the purpose of connecting with the S&C service at Hellifield to:

1. provide better Leeds - Lancaster links
2. provide a link from Settle/ Dales to Manchester (and get Mancunians out into the hills)
3. provide a connection from East Lancashire to West Yorkshire (given the massive market which people assure me exists for a through service if the Colne line was rebuilt)
4. this would maybe allow a couple of Lancaster paths to/from Leeds to allow additional Leeds - Settle - Carlisle services (maybe a slow service bi-hourly and a "fast" service bi-hourly, swapping at Carlisle, so the slow northbound becomes a fast southbound like the Shotts services do at Edinburgh/ Glasgow. This would maintain a clockface hourly service at the Leeds end (where slots are tight) and give better connections from Leeds to Glasgow

(I know there are no spare units at Northern, but its only 25 minus from Clitheroe to Hellifield and this would open up a lot of potential journeys)

 

[bluenoxid]

I believe that TAS did a report in 2005 about the line and it was quite damning about the service, stating that terminating at Skipton was not an optimal use of resources and that units were poorly utilised.

A better structured service and a through service to Barrow (via Lancaster) are certainly options to be looked at.

If Morecambe was electrified then there would only be the Heysham Branch, Windemere, Little North Western and Barrow that would not be electrified in this part of the North West.

 

[yorksrob]

I still have friends in the North Lancashire/Cumbria area and I have found the line useful to visit them in the past. If there were a more steady service throughout the day I'd definately use it more.

 

[ashworth]

I've used this service on quite a number of occasions over the last few summers whilst on holiday near Lancaster. I have mainly travelled on the 1049 from Lancaster and back from Skipton on the 1434 or 1724. All of these services have had a reasonable number of passengers with the 1724 from Skipton to Lancaster being especially busy.

I also think that the service should be at least 2 hourly and mainly concentrating upon the Lancaster to Skipton section of the route. Better connections at Carnforth to and from Barrow would also be a great help. The mid morning service to Skipton/Leeds departs from Carnforth 3 minutes before the arrival from Barrow! The rediculously early last train of the day from Leeds only allows approx 5 minutes to get the connection to Barrow.

There were quite a number of passengers boarding at the intermediate stations but I do think there would be far more if the service was more often with more convenient timings.
The first train in the morning does not arrive in Skipton until 0827 and Leeds until 0904 which is far too late for people going to work.
The last return journey is perhaps even worse leaving Leeds at 1639 and Skipton at 1724

The service is also not very conveneint for shopping trips to Skipton especially for the market. With sparse bus services in the area from Carnforth, Wennington, Bentham, Clapham and Giggleswick surely this is a market to be tapped. The timings of the trains either allow for only approx 2 hours in Skipton (not really long enough considering the length of the walk from station to town centre), or approx 5 hours which is much too long for shoppers to to stay in a moderately sized market town like Skipton.

 

[142094]

If Morecambe was electrified then there would only be the Heysham Branch, Windemere, Little North Western and Barrow that would not be electrified in this part of the North West.

I can think of a few lines I'd like to see electrified before this one.

 

[43167]

As a local to the line, I have found the service useful. Though the service could be better, especially in the afternoon. 2 hourly service would be more than enough I would have thought. Its a great little line I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've used this service on quite a number of occasions over the last few summers whilst on holiday near Lancaster. I have mainly travelled on the 1049 from Lancaster and back from Skipton on the 1434 or 1724. All of these services have had a reasonable number of passengers with the 1724 from Skipton to Lancaster being especially busy.

I also think that the service should be at least 2 hourly and mainly concentrating upon the Lancaster to Skipton section of the route. Better connections at Carnforth to and from Barrow would also be a great help. The mid morning service to Skipton/Leeds departs from Carnforth 3 minutes before the arrival from Barrow! The rediculously early last train of the day from Leeds only allows approx 5 minutes to get the connection to Barrow.

There were quite a number of passengers boarding at the intermediate stations but I do think there would be far more if the service was more often with more convenient timings.
The first train in the morning does not arrive in Skipton until 0827 and Leeds until 0904 which is far too late for people going to work.
The last return journey is perhaps even worse leaving Leeds at 1639 and Skipton at 1724

The service is also not very conveneint for shopping trips to Skipton especially for the market. With sparse bus services in the area from Carnforth, Wennington, Bentham, Clapham and Giggleswick surely this is a market to be tapped. The timings of the trains either allow for only approx 2 hours in Skipton (not really long enough considering the length of the walk from station to town centre), or approx 5 hours which is much too long for shoppers to to stay in a moderately sized market town like Skipton.

I agree with everything you say there.
a service every 2hours departing leeds at xx19 is would be good I think. 0819 the first and the last at 1819, maybe abit later.

 

[philjo]

One problem at the moment is that the connections at Lancaster are not particularly good, especially for the Windermere services. They are either extremely tight (6/7 minutes) or about 80-90 minutes. There is also a long gap between the services.
if a shuttle to Skipton between the through services can't be run, would it be feasible to run one to Hellifield to change on the a S&C train , or alternatively to couple up there to run as a single train through to Leeds?

 

[cuccir]

I still have friends in the North Lancashire/Cumbria area and I have found the line useful to visit them in the past. If there were a more steady service throughout the day I'd definately use it more.

Indeed, North Lancashire and South Cumbria are poorly connected to anywhere East of the Pennines: a long journey south to Preston or even Manchester, or north to Carlisle, in order to get across. How many would want to do this sort of flow though, I don't know. I wonder if a stock-neutral way of doing this would be to run, say, 4 of the York>Blackpool services as York>Morecambe instead? I'd love to say York>Barrow but the stock is probably better used providing a well-timed connection up the Cumbria Coast and sending the other train back to York more quickly!

 

[Damien1986]

Why not use a class 156 or 158 dmu on this route it would be more comfortable than a pacer!

 

[MCR247]

Well I don't know, erm maybe because there isn't any spare? I don't think many TOCs would be using pacers if there were loads of sprinters with cobwebs on them :roll:

 

[Grumpy]

The trouble with this service is it tries to do several things and fails at them all.
The line from Giggleswick to Carnforth passes through nowhere of any significant value to the railway. The stations are hardly used. Possibly because the service provided is useless for such as commuting to major employment centres.
From my (admittedly limited) use of the service I get the impression that Lancaster is the main origin/destination point on the West and the trains carrying on to Morecambe being more of a historical accident than commercial design.
The service out of Morecambe is weird. Thus the nearest big city, Preston, doesn't get any form of through service, nor the major conurbations of Merseyside or Greater Manchester. This cant be much good for Morecambe. Surely some form of through service from these points would generate more passengers than the present service from Bentham.
Morecambe used to be known as Bradford by the sea, reflecting where its visitors came from. Now there is no through service.
It would be much better use of scarce resource to shut the line between Settle Junction and Carnforth, but run some trains from Leeds to Morecambe (or Barrow as implied above) via Bradford and Preston. The population served between Bradford and Preston is several times greater than the present routing with much greater potential to attract through passengers to Lancaster, Morecambe (or Barrow)

 

[4SRKT]

What I'd like to do with this line is part of a general improvement to the whole S&C operation.

Run a two-hourly Leeds > Glasgow stopping only at Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Motherwell. This would link the major cities of Leeds and Glasgow properly, whose service is today pitiful. It would also give Lockerbie a much better service than at present.

On the alternate hour run a local stopping service (pacer?) between Skipton and Carlisle, with cross-platform connections into the Aire Valley EMUs. This gives a much more frequent service for the small stations, which must outweigh the change at Skipton.

Run a two-hourly service from Leeds to Windermere, calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield and the four intermediates (possibly by request), Carnforth, Lancaster etc, then running in the path of the current Oxenholme > Windermere short workings. This would mean recasting the Manchester Airport > Barrow/Windermere service, but the advantage would be all Windermere branch workings starting back along the WCML at least at Lancaster. It would provide much better connectivity from West Yorkshire to the Lake District, and if the recast permitted it could provide good connections at Carnforth for the Barrow line.

Between the Glasgows and the Windermeres this would provide a clockface hourly fast working between Leeds and Skipton, which should be a lot easier to path than a more random operation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What I'd like to do with this line is part of a general improvement to the whole S&C operation.

Run a two-hourly Leeds > Glasgow stopping only at Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Motherwell. This would link the major cities of Leeds and Glasgow properly, whose service is today pitiful. It would also give Lockerbie a much better service than at present.

On the alternate hour run a local stopping service (pacer?) between Skipton and Carlisle, with cross-platform connections into the Aire Valley EMUs. This gives a much more frequent service for the small stations, which must outweigh the change at Skipton.

Run a two-hourly service from Leeds to Windermere, calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield and the four intermediates (possibly by request), Carnforth, Lancaster etc, then running in the path of the current Oxenholme > Windermere short workings. This would mean recasting the Manchester Airport > Barrow/Windermere service, but the advantage would be all Windermere branch workings starting back along the WCML at least at Lancaster. It would provide much better connectivity from West Yorkshire to the Lake District, and if the recast permitted it could provide good connections at Carnforth for the Barrow line.

Between the Glasgows and the Windermeres this would provide a clockface hourly fast working between Leeds and Skipton, which should be a lot easier to path than a more random operation.

After travelling alot on this line (only leeds skipton but you pick up service pattterns) i can see a lot of logic in what you say, the fast to glasgow (possibly operated by TPE DMU's after NW electrification frees some up cant see it needing many DMU's, or 170's something like that anyway) is a definite one.