Current events in Afghanistan

[ainsworth74]

Thicker than 2 short planks.

Sir I protest that this is a vile insult to carpentry and request that you withdraw the comment.

 

[DarloRich]

Sir I protest that this is a vile insult to carpentry and request that you withdraw the comment.

For balance: I saw a tweet yesterday that described Raab, when trying to understand or explain the situation in Afghanistan, as looking like a dog trying to understand the offside rule!

 

[Typhoon]

Well there have been plenty of people in the media saying they tried to warn the government about this very situation so some people clearly did. Sadly, those people weren't listened to. In any event a competent government run by mature adults should have contingency plans for this sort of thing that don't take days and days to put into operation.

Too right. We knew this day was coming the minute Trump announced the troop withdrawals, sooner than expected but it would come. Doubtless Johnson will be crowing about hindsight again, when not just the media but experts including some on his own benches have been warning about it.

Don't fall for the government line on on this. They have been dragged reluctantly into doing something albeit too little to late (as always with Johnson) once they saw people weren't buying their nonsense. The 20000 they say they will take is not going to happen. The poor people will be dead long before they get a chance to get out. IMO they either get out now or they don't get out.

Johnson is like a poor version of a 'Two Ronnies' sketch, he reacts to everything about one month too late. The sad thing is that, as you say, he is playing with peoples' lives. He has made minimal effort to support the very people who supported us, the translators issue has been going on for years. (Added) Its not as if neighbouring countries are exactly friendly to the west (to allow refugees in pending movement elsewhere).

As regards Richard Burgon, he could have been close to a decent statement

There is no long term military solution in Afghanistan. The focus now should be on reparations and supporting refugees.

(I'd even accept long term being omitted) but typically he turns a potentially insightful but obvious statement into confirmation that he still represents La-La Land in Parliament.

Incidentally, any reason why two short planks are thicker than two long ones? I know its a phrase but, its just an odd choice.

 

[brad465]

A comment I saw online elsewhere:

"Great photos of heavily armed religious nuts, none wearing masks, riding around on Humvees. Anyway, enough about the Trump rally - let's focus on Afghanistan"

 

[Falcon1200]

Headline in the Daily Mail tomorrow:

Raab was "Too busy" on holiday to help brave translators.

oh dear. Not a good look.

I can't disagree with that, Mr Raab must explain his (in)action pronto.

Well there have been plenty of people in the media saying they tried to warn the government about this very situation so some people clearly did. Sadly, those people weren't listened to.

But others were saying it would take the Taliban 90 days to take Kabul ! As with so many other issues, Covid masks and Geronimo to name two somewhat disparate ones, there are diametrically opposing views from 'experts' and the layman is left none the wiser.

 

[Kite159]

Even if Raab did make that phone call instead of another person, would it have make much difference to a government in collapse, thinking more about how they can escape to another country for safety?

The Taliban never went away, they went to ground with the leaders escaping to other countries. When Trump started to pull out the American troops in agreement with the Taliban, who could have predicted they would make a comeback.

I know Labour love a good war (after all they did start the UK's involvement in Afghanistan & Iraq), but do they think sending in the British troops at short notice would have make a blind bit of difference?

 

[DarloRich]

Even if Raab did make that phone call instead of another person, would it have make much difference to a government in collapse, thinking more about how they can escape to another country for safety?

Whether the call would work or not is the issue. That he didn't make the call is. He tried to fob it off onto a junior minister because he was on his jollies. The FCO knew ( or should have done) about the concept of equivalency and explained, perhaps in crayon, why Raab as Foreign Secretary had to make the call, if only to be seen to make the call.

I know Labour love a good war (after all they did start the UK's involvement in Afghanistan & Iraq), but do they think sending in the British troops at short notice would have make a blind bit of difference?

No one suggests sending troops in other than to now secure the airport because it has all gone to poop.

 

[XAM2175]

The Government continuing to display concern and compassion for vulnerable people:

Guards at Kabul embassy told they are ineligible for UK protection

Exclusive: 125-strong team hired through outsourced contractor given informal notice they no longer have jobs

www.theguardian.com

More than 100 guards at the British embassy in Kabul have been told they are not eligible for UK government protection because they were hired through an outsourced contractor, the Guardian has learned.

Most of the 125-strong team of security personnel, employed by the global security firm GardaWorld, have been given informal notice that they no longer have jobs guarding the embassy, several said. The guards, some of whom had been working for the UK embassy for over a decade, described feeling abandoned by British officials and their employer. Many have been forced into hiding, fearing for their lives.

Meanwhile, more than 100 guards doing the same work for the US embassy, under a separate GardaWorld contract, have been evacuated and others were receiving support from the US embassy, according to a senior Afghan national GardaWorld employee in charge of human resources.

On Saturday night, at the end of a long shift helping British diplomats get to Kabul airport so they could flee after the fall of the Afghan capital to the Taliban, several British embassy guards said they were told by phone that since the embassy was now closed their services would no longer be required. They were asked to hand back computers, body armour and radios. One guard said he was told by a British expat GardaWorld operations manager on Friday that his contract was going to be terminated. “He said: ‘There won’t be a GardaWorld project any more with the embassy; your jobs are gone.’ He himself left Afghanistan the following morning … No one asked whether we are safe or not. No one asked whether our lives are in danger or not.”
...
Nearly all 160 GardaWorld employees working on the British embassy contract applied for help from the Ministry of Defence-run Afghan relocations and assistance policy (Arap), designed to assist people working for UK organisations, and all except 21 translators were rejected last month. They received letters explaining they were not eligible because they “were not directly employed by her majesty’s government”. “We realise this will be disappointing news,” the letters said.

The GardaWorld team provided all the security for the British embassy in Afghanistan under its “British embassy Kabul project”, including offices, accommodation and off-site visits. Most of the guards are men, but about 10 are women, responsible among other things for frisking female visitors to the embassy. Security for all British embassies globally was outsourced decades ago. A GardaWorld HR manager said he was asked to prepare termination letters for many of the Kabul embassy guards last week but the process was disrupted by the arrival of the Taliban.
...
The UK rejection has been compounded by the apparent termination of their contracts, which has left many worried about how they are going to support their families. Several former guards have spent the past three days queueing outside the Kabul airport in the hope they can talk to the small team of British officials still administering the evacuation schemes inside.
...
Asked if the embassy guards were still GardaWorld employees, Westmacott said: “Technically they are because we haven’t communicated with them formally to the contrary. … I fully appreciate the predicament that all these poor people of ours are in, in desperate situations trying to sort their lives out and get to safety. So, it is a nightmare. We fully recognise that.” He said he has been working with the industry body, Security in Complex Environments Group, to try to help the guards.

The Ministry of Defence said the guards were welcome to reapply for the relocation scheme. A spokesperson said: “Nobody’s life should be put at risk because they supported the UK government in Afghanistan. Over the last few weeks alone more than 2,000 Afghan staff and family members have been relocated to start their new lives in the UK. “We have significantly expanded and accelerated the relocation scheme and carefully assess each applicant for eligibility and security. Those who were dismissed for serious offences, including those that constitute a crime in the UK or threatened the safety and security of British troops, will continue to be excluded.”

The Foreign Office has been contacted for comment.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I have to say the way the UK and the US have abandoned the people of Afghanistan over the last couple of months totally disgusts me. I cannot remember the last time I felt so horrified and disgusted by something the UK Government had done.

 

[daodao]

Even if Raab did make that phone call instead of another person, would it have make much difference to a government in collapse, thinking more about how they can escape to another country for safety?

The West has been utterly humiliated and deservedly so for its crass policy of liberal interventionism in Afghanistan initiated by Blair and Bush in 2001. Sadly, there is now little that can be done to assist those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces there over the last 20 years. I attach little blame to the likes of Raab or Biden, who just happened to be holding the baton when the previous flawed Afghan administration collapsed like a pack of cards a few days ago.

Russia (despite a similar experience in 1989), China, Iran and the Arab world are gloating over the West's failure. The West has lost its way by failing
to understand the need to work with indigenous people in foreign countries and by trying to impose on others its own dissolute vision of how society should be run. The moral degeneracy that has swept the West over the last half century is regarded with contempt elsewhere in the world.

The Taliban have stated that they will govern by the rule of Sharia law, and all one can do is hope (possibly forlornly) that they will interpret and implement it in a less oppressive and cruel manner than in the period 1996-2001. At some point, the West will need to eat humble pie and try to engage with the new rulers of Afghanistan, but it will be at the back of the queue.

 

[brad465]

Anyone else get the feeling the Mail is trying to get Raab out of post:

 

[XAM2175]

The moral degeneracy that has swept the West over the last half century is regarded with contempt elsewhere in the world.

And what's your opinion on it?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I pointed out earlier, no one gave a fig about the taleban until they sheltered Al Quaeda. One can say it's their country, let them do with it as they please, but how do you contain the problem, as with the export of terrorism or the conversion of gullible youths here into jihadis.

The previous Taliban administration in Afghanistan was regularly criticised by other states including the UK for the abuses of human rights, and for the destruction of non-Muslim religious sites such as the Bamiyan Buddha which they blew up in around 2000.

Nobody cared enough to take military action until they sheltered Bin Laden.

 

[Strathclyder]

The Government continuing to display concern and compassion for vulnerable people:

Guards at Kabul embassy told they are ineligible for UK protection

Exclusive: 125-strong team hired through outsourced contractor given informal notice they no longer have jobs

www.theguardian.com

Reading through the above quoted text, this part in particular left me slack-jawed and boiled my blood given the context:

“We realise this will be disappointing news,” the letters said.

Oh yes indeed. Given that their lives have been turned upside down, are now stuck in a country controlled by a regime hellbent on getting rid of anyone from/associated with the West through the use of violent force (despite asserting themselves to the contrary while the world's media is gazing upon them, a gaze that will inevitably wane as the news cycle moves on), have been forced into hiding with no idea when or even if government help is coming and rightfully feeling like they've been forgotten & betrayed as a result, 'disappointing news' is a grave understatement.

I'm aware that I may be making too much of that one quote, but it, in my eyes, crystallizes this government's callous, flippant and outright dismissive attitude to such vulnerable people. Par of the course and I shouldn't be the least bit surprised at this point, but here we are.

Honest to god, all of this just makes me want to put my head through the nearest wall...

 

[Bantamzen]

“We realise this will be disappointing news”. If this is what was on those letters, its an absolute disgrace. They are not applying for a job a McDonalds or a credit agreement to buy a TV, these are people that are literally on the Taliban's "death list". If caught they & their families are almost certainly going to tortured & killed. Why the hell can't we also offer them asylum, is it really going to make a difference to us? Because it sure as hell would make a difference to them!

“We realise that being tossed to the Taliban murder squad, where you face horrible torture and a slow, brutal death will be disappointing news....”

 

[yorksrob]

The previous Taliban administration in Afghanistan was regularly criticised by other states including the UK for the abuses of human rights, and for the destruction of non-Muslim religious sites such as the Bamiyan Buddha which they blew up in around 2000.

Nobody cared enough to take military action until they sheltered Bin Laden.

This is true. But realistically, intensive criticism doesn't amount to much in such situations .

 

[daodao]

“We realise this will be disappointing news”. If this is what was on those letters, its an absolute disgrace. They are not applying for a job a McDonalds or a credit agreement to buy a TV, these are people that are literally on the Taliban's "death list". If caught they & their families are almost certainly going to tortured & killed. Why the hell can't we also offer them asylum, is it really going to make a difference to us? Because it sure as hell would make a difference to them!

“We realise that being tossed to the Taliban murder squad, where you face horrible torture and a slow, brutal death will be disappointing news....”

While I deplore unnecessary vindictiveness, those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces over the last 20 years are likely to be regarded as Quislings by their compatriots. This widely used term for those who collaborate with or assist hated foreign occupiers is named after the infamous "Minister-President" of Norway who was tried and executed in 1945 following the liberation of that country. It is slightly ironic that this Norwegian's name is used for collaborators, given that only dozens of them were killed in Norway post-1945 compared to the tens of thousands of such individuals who suffered the same fate post WW2 in other liberated countries such as Poland.

There is little understanding in Great Britain of what naturally happens in a country following the violent overthrow of a previous regime or liberation from foreign occupation, given that the last time this happened in England was in 1689 (and that was relatively mild). The fate likely to await these "pigs in the middle" as a result of stupid British meddling in Afghanistan is unfortunate, but in practice there is little that the UK can do for them.

 

[oldman]

While I deplore unnecessary vindictiveness, those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces over the last 20 years are likely to be regarded as Quislings by their compatriots.

How do you know what the people of Afghanistan as a whole think?

An armed group, funded in part by the drugs trade, has seized power and you assume they speak for the people, and their enemies are the people's enemies and deserve what they may get. Naturally you deplore 'unnecessary' vindictiveness.

This has been the line of authoritarian regimes through the ages - 'we are the people, so our enemies are the enemies of the people, so we can kill them in the name of the people'.

 

[ainsworth74]

The fate likely to await these "pigs in the middle" as a result of stupid British meddling in Afghanistan is unfortunate, but in practice there is little that the UK can do for them.

I mean we could offer those who worked for the UK Government or with contractors to the UK Government (because let's be honest the Taliban aren't going to draw a distinction) asylum in the UK. That would seem a solid step and something we can do for them.

 

[Falcon1200]

I mean we could offer those who worked for the UK Government or with contractors to the UK Government (because let's be honest the Taliban aren't going to draw a distinction) asylum in the UK. That would seem a solid step and something we can do for them.

What number of people is that, and what are the practical means, now, of getting them out of Afghanistan and to safety ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

So it looks like not only did Raab fob off the call to someone else, no call was ever made.

 

[najaB]

Honest to god, all of this just makes me want to put my head through the nearest wall...

Remember this when the next election rolls around.

While I deplore unnecessary vindictiveness, those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces over the last 20 years are likely to be regarded as Quislings by their compatriots.

If the Germans had won WW2 the Resistance would be seen as traitors and the Vichy Regime seen as heroes and patriots.

 

[DarloRich]

The West has been utterly humiliated and deservedly so for its crass policy of liberal interventionism in Afghanistan initiated by Blair and Bush in 2001. Sadly, there is now little that can be done to assist those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces there over the last 20 years. I attach little blame to the likes of Raab or Biden, who just happened to be holding the baton when the previous flawed Afghan administration collapsed like a pack of cards a few days ago.

Russia (despite a similar experience in 1989), China, Iran and the Arab world are gloating over the West's failure. The West has lost its way by failing
to understand the need to work with indigenous people in foreign countries and by trying to impose on others its own dissolute vision of how society should be run. The moral degeneracy that has swept the West over the last half century is regarded with contempt elsewhere in the world.

The Taliban have stated that they will govern by the rule of Sharia law, and all one can do is hope (possibly forlornly) that they will interpret and implement it in a less oppressive and cruel manner than in the period 1996-2001. At some point, the West will need to eat humble pie and try to engage with the new rulers of Afghanistan, but it will be at the back of the queue.

While I deplore unnecessary vindictiveness, those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces over the last 20 years are likely to be regarded as Quislings by their compatriots. This widely used term for those who collaborate with or assist hated foreign occupiers is named after the infamous "Minister-President" of Norway who was tried and executed in 1945 following the liberation of that country. It is slightly ironic that this Norwegian's name is used for collaborators, given that only dozens of them were killed in Norway post-1945 compared to the tens of thousands of such individuals who suffered the same fate post WW2 in other liberated countries such as Poland.

There is little understanding in Great Britain of what naturally happens in a country following the violent overthrow of a previous regime or liberation from foreign occupation, given that the last time this happened in England was in 1689 (and that was relatively mild). The fate likely to await these "pigs in the middle" as a result of stupid British meddling in Afghanistan is unfortunate, but in practice there is little that the UK can do for them.

This is errant, Corbyn fanboy, Stop The (American) War nonsense, hence blaming Blair. It is tiring and boring. This glee exhibited by the crank left over the Taliban (FFS) taking over Afghanistan is nauseating. Anything to try and prove how evil America and "centrists" in the UK are is seized upon. Not a single thought is given to those who will pay the price for this. The poster above clearly thinks those people are to blame for "foolishly" embracing liberation and freedom over theocratical oppression and by extension they deserve what's coming.

PS could you give me an example of the "The moral degeneracy that has swept the West over the last half century" it seems you almost welcome the Taliban and think they are something to look up to!

What number of people is that, and what are the practical means, now, of getting them out of Afghanistan and to safety ?

Not a massive number but no doubt a number that the UKIP heart of the former Tory party will object to. The Guardian article above mentions 125 people employed for the Government via a contractor. We could start with getting them out. I doubt the Taliban are going to care about the status of outsourced contracts!

 

[birchesgreen]

Reports of the Taliban going door to door in Kabul looking for people who worked for the West. The cuddly Taliban 2.0 didn't last very long.

 

[najaB]

Reports of the Taliban going door to door in Kabul looking for people who worked for the West. The cuddly Taliban 2.0 didn't last very long.

Like any other organisation/group there will be zealots and the less extreme. It remains to be seen if the leadership can control the zealots.

 

[Gloster]

Like any other organisation/group there will be zealots and the less extreme. It remains to be seen if the leadership can control the zealots.

If the leaders are the less extreme. But if the leaders are also zealots, just more politically savvy ones who are better at appearing moderate as long as it is necessary to fool the West, then what?

 

[Bantamzen]

While I deplore unnecessary vindictiveness, those Afghanis who foolishly sided with foreign forces over the last 20 years are likely to be regarded as Quislings by their compatriots. This widely used term for those who collaborate with or assist hated foreign occupiers is named after the infamous "Minister-President" of Norway who was tried and executed in 1945 following the liberation of that country. It is slightly ironic that this Norwegian's name is used for collaborators, given that only dozens of them were killed in Norway post-1945 compared to the tens of thousands of such individuals who suffered the same fate post WW2 in other liberated countries such as Poland.

There is little understanding in Great Britain of what naturally happens in a country following the violent overthrow of a previous regime or liberation from foreign occupation, given that the last time this happened in England was in 1689 (and that was relatively mild). The fate likely to await these "pigs in the middle" as a result of stupid British meddling in Afghanistan is unfortunate, but in practice there is little that the UK can do for them.

For those people who literally put their lives on the line to support the allied efforts in Afghanistan we could at least offer them asylum for them and their immediate families. Imagine living in a country like that and working for occupying forces, then the occupiers leave without so much as a by your leave, leaving you having to face the very people you worked against. Then remember that the Taliban are very likely to use very nasty, very physical, very mind bogglingly painful ways to punish you.

Now let's just say you somehow escape the Taliban's attention, what would your reaction be? Thank your lucky stars, praise your deity and move on. Or would you feel betrayed, bitter, angry? And would that bitterness turn you into another member of the Taliban, albeit with even more motivation than the rest? Often the most dangerous people in conflicts like these are people who feel betrayed by the very people they once supported. Remember, the CIA once supported the Mujahedeen, who in part eventually became the Taliban.

 

[najaB]

If the leaders are the less extreme. But if the leaders are also zealots, just more politically savvy ones who are better at appearing moderate as long as it is necessary to fool the West, then what?

That's a possibility, but if they're as politically savvy as that then they'll realise that it won't be as easy to control the population now as it was after they've had almost twenty years of something different/better.

Compare the limited freedoms being experienced now in places like Saudi Arabia, women can now go out of their homes without male chaperones, can drive, etc.

 

[SteveM70]

And now we have another cock and bull story pushed out by Raab’s handlers to try and absolve him of blame for his inactionsOddly enough, none of this was mentioned two days ago when he was in the House.

Too busy to make a call on Friday, a call which never got made in the end, and which was blamed on the “rapidly deteriorating situation”. I said to someone yesterday when they said it had been delegated to an unnamed junior minister that it was a lie, if it had happened they’d have named the individual.

And yet he stayed on holiday till Monday.

Do they really think people will believe this?

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately I think it might be best if Britain learned the lesson that the French learned after Suez.

America is not dependable and we should not rely on them for anything.