Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[Mag_seven]

Are customers still getting offered first class tickets on app/site or has that been abandoned since first lockdown?

The reply seemed to look more of - thanks for noticing, but deflect from answering your question

I can't help but feel that the reason why the first class section in the HSTs is still out of use is because guards are reluctant to give up having the whole first class carriage to themselves.

 

[backontrack]

So all the promised improvements between Inverness and Central belt scrapped. After all the noise and money we don’t even get an Inter7city service still have 170’s in some services.

Highland's being seriously sold short here. As is Aberdeen. When that is added to the backsliding happening on dualling the A9 and A96 we are not getting anything like what was promised.

A serious missed opportunity to use Covid to drive modal shift.


Drop service any further and might as well close it. As a functioning transport link to Inverness it is so long many people from Caithness join the train in Helmsdale.

Why? North of Tain a couple of tpd would suffice if targeted correctly. Focused demand. The FoFNL aspiration is for 4tpd to Helmsdale, 2 limited stop and continuing to Wick with another unit shuttling between the Caithness towns and meeting the Helmsdale trains. There's more than one way to skin a cat. But no, this is the line people have issues with when it's hardly the worst offender. (Wick passengers sometimes change at Helmsdale, but the line is competitive to Thurso, which has double the pax and a larger population as well as a ferry connection.)

Anyway, this is off-topic - and I don't think my mood would be improved by spinning this into yet another 'let's close the Far North line' thread...

 

[Journeyman]

You can't help but wonder if the cutting of services on the Borders line is politically-motivated, as south of Middleton Moor is represented by a Tory MP and an SNP MSP. We all know that the SNP hate the Tories with a passion, which is why we see token investment by the SG in the Borders.

The Borders would also suffer enormously under independence, as people regularly live, work and conduct business on both sides of the border.

 

[fgwrich]

I'll certainly be tweeting ScotRail over this "consultation" later on. A very skewed and deliberately posed set of questions in those surveys, which smacks of "We've made up our minds, we don't really care what you want to do".

Having spent an excellent week north of the border last week, all the services I travelled on were well used - a number of the I7C services were full and standing on the Aberdeen route (not of course helped by the frustrating lack of FC), the majority of Fife Circle services were busy (the only one I did use that wasn't as busy was a 6 car 158 running directly behind another Fife Circle service) and a very busy Highland Explorer service out to Oban and back. After all the improvements we've seen so far, this "consultation" feel's like TS taking the gun out of the draw and shooting themselves in the foot with it - more so with COP26 and the talk of tackling climate change coming up!

 

[Happilyretired]

Reversion to the Stirling route will add about 20 minutes to the journey time. For example, the evening train from Edinburgh to Inverness took 3h 19min in 2019 (Edinburgh dep 1742, Inverness arr 2101) compared to 3h 41min in the proposed 2022 timetable (Edinburgh dep 1733, Inverness arr 2114). This is a retrograde step.

Current timetable, LNER Highland Chieftan departs Perth 0958, arrives Edinburgh 11.22 (1hr 24mins) via Stirling. ScotRail service departs 10.03 ( virtually empty as all the Edinburgh passengers have boarded the Chieftan) arrives Edinburgh 11.29. 1 hr 29 mins via Fife.

Same Northbound. Chieftan departs Edinburgh 16.33 via Stirling arriving 17;51. Scotrail 2 mins later via Fife arives Perth 7 mins later at 17.58.
Running INV/EDB services via Stirling would also help when services are delayed on the Highland main line. Currently, when a Southbound services is late into Perth it is routed via STG as it has lost its path on the single line between Hilton Jcn and Ladybank.

You can't help but wonder if the cutting of services on the Borders line is politically-motivated, as south of Middleton Moor is represented by a Tory MP and an SNP MSP. We all know that the SNP hate the Tories with a passion, which is why we see token investment by the SG in the Borders.

If they are to go ahead with a one tph EDB/TWB they should at least consider supplementing the service with an alternate service to Gorebridge to alleviate the overcrowding commonplace on the Northern section on the route

 

[backontrack]

Got to love these posters not based in Scotland wanting half of Scotland to lose what rail service it already has. The North and West Highlands need more and better connectivity, not less.

If you look at the detailed per route figures, the per passenger subsidy on the WHL is around a third of that for the local services into Aberdeen. Demand for between a third and half the year has been suppressed by lack of capacity on that route. Even though the refurb of the 156s has been modest, the trains are cleaner and look in much better condition and the addition of power sockets and wifi make them more appealing. Between the wifi and mobile its possible to work online on a good proportion of the route.

If things were rejigged to offer better capacity and passenger facilities, first class or a scenic class at a modest premium could help close the revenue gap. Those better tourist trains operating year round would provide facilities that would make the WHL significantly more appealing to residents of the areas it serves as a year round transport option. While traditional commuting will drop off, with more working from 'home' and more ability to work on the move, trains that are comfortable, well equipped with power sockets, tables, good internet connectivity and catering have the potential to attract modal shift even where journey times are not that competitive with road.

This is an excellent comment and I'd Like it if I could, but there's also a subtle point in here buried in the end about modal shift, because ultimately we always undersell rail because we see the delays and issues with our services (and that classic British self-effacation). If all the trains in all the land were just as quick as their equivalent car journeys, many car owners would still drive because they don't have to buy a ticket.

 

[ld0595]

Some coverage of the cuts in the Courier today. Glad to see they are highlighting the significant impact on Perth services.

Perth to Inverness train ‘faster in 19th century’: Fears grow over cuts to services​

Train journeys between Perth and Inverness were faster in the 19th century and they are about to get even slower. That’s the analysis from Mike Robinson – one of Scotland’s leading sustainability experts on ScotRail’s revised train timetable. The soon to be Scottish Government run rail franchise has announced a consultation on a revised, post pandemic timetable with 300 fewer services per day.The franchise is trying to tackle a £243.5m shortfall in 2019/20. It says the cuts will save taxpayers between £30 to £40m and, even before the pandemic, too many trains were running with very few passengers on board. Mr Robinson said the reductions “send completely the wrong signals ahead of COP26.”

One of the key changes includes an alteration to the main service between Perth and Inverness. From May 22, this will now travel via Stirling from where passengers will have to change trains. The Perth to Edinburgh service will travel via Cowdenbeath – adding 10 minutes to the journey time.

Mr Robinson said: “Rail remains the best way to carry large numbers of people, and freight, around the country and it is an essential component of reducing Scotland’s transport emissions longer term.“These reductions in services are understandable short term because of the decline of train travel as a result of Covid, but send completely the wrong signals ahead of COP26." “We need to see real long term strategic investment in rail and the political will to support this.”

World leaders will gather in Glasgow in October for the COP26 conference to discuss a deal to further limit the carbon emissions that are driving the climate crisis. Mr Robinson said a faster and more efficient rail service north of Edinburgh to Perth & Dundee is also one of the “most valuable economic steps we could take, especially for tourism.” “These journeys were already slower than they used to be in the 1880s, so we need to speed them up, not slow them down, as these latest changes do,” he added.

Mr Robinson is the chief executive of the Perth-based Royal Scottish Geographical Society. He helped establish Stop Climate Chaos – the largest coalition ever formed in Scotland – to deliver the Scottish Climate Change Act. He was a member of the ScotRail Stakeholder Advisory Panel for five years, from September 2015 to August 2020.

Jane Ann Liston, from Railfuture Scotland, said: “The cost to the tax-payer – and railway passengers are tax-payers too, let us not forget – must be balanced against all the negative consequences if the move back to cars be not reversed.”

Independent Highland Perthshire councillor Xander McDade said he shared Mr Robinson’s concerns over green tourism.He said: “I will be pushing hard for the council to submit a formal response to the consultation as these changes should be of significant concern for the whole county.”

 

[Falcon1200]

Quite rightly too, as well as Perth/Inverness, the Perth/Edinburgh via Fife service takes an almost unbelievable 95-100 minutes for the journey !

 

[kez19]

I can't help but feel that the reason why the first class section in the HSTs is still out of use is because guards are reluctant to give up having the whole first class carriage to themselves.

That would have to be one of the stupidest things to ever come out of this if that is true!

Why would the guards not want to give up first class on HSTs? I would rather if first class wasn’t in use it could at least be in use to the general public?

 

[adrock1976]

This is an excellent comment and I'd Like it if I could, but there's also a subtle point in here buried in the end about modal shift, because ultimately we always undersell rail because we see the delays and issues with our services (and that classic British self-effacation). If all the trains in all the land were just as quick as their equivalent car journeys, many car owners would still drive because they don't have to buy a ticket.

Also in regards to the Far North, the shortest route Inverness - Tain - Helmsdale - Thurso/Wick is sadly by road due to the three bridges that massively trimmed the distance (Kessock - 1982, Cromarty - 1979, and Dornoch - 1994).

Furthermore, it would be as good as impossible to serve the request stops with a National Express/Scottish Citylink replacement bus service due to the very narrow country lanes.

I've had a quick look at the North Highlands, and it seems that the short workings to Dingwall and Invergordon after lunchtime have been reinstated as per pre pandemic. Were these the trains that whenever there were delays it caused the timetable for the rest of the day to collapse?

 

[alex397]

Are customers still getting offered first class tickets on app/site or has that been abandoned since first lockdown?

First Class was not an option when buying a ticket.
It’s clear there is a reason they have taped off first class that they are not telling the public.

The train got busier throughout the journey with standing passengers. There were still empty seats, so they could have a seat if they really wanted. But just opening the first class carriage would have alleviated. Rightly or wrongly, people are still concerned about sitting next to strangers on trains. But it’s not just about that, it just seems a waste not to have it open, classified or declassified.

 

[Bikeman78]

One specific point I would refer to, the proposal for the Glasgow South electric services will leave an entirely inadequate service for the public and in particular the eastern half of the Cathcart Circle will be left with an hourly service during the day. Next to nobody in the city is going to waste their time on arranging part of their day to use such an infrequent service.

The biggest farce about the Cathcart circle is that some of them run empty stock in the path of the booked passenger train. What does that achieve? Might same a few kW of electricity but that's about it.

 

[GALLANTON]

For the people who use the Cathcart Circle who are losing services there is always the option of the far more frequent bus services in the area.

 

[kez19]

First Class was not an option when buying a ticket.
It’s clear there is a reason they have taped off first class that they are not telling the public.

The train got busier throughout the journey with standing passengers. There were still empty seats, so they could have a seat if they really wanted. But just opening the first class carriage would have alleviated. Rightly or wrongly, people are still concerned about sitting next to strangers on trains. But it’s not just about that, it just seems a waste not to have it open, classified or declassified.

I thought that in terms of tickets via site or app.
In terms of first class and capacity does look a bit hypocritical for it not be in use if they need additional capacity (just opinion here)

 

[380101]

I think that the proposals answer the question on another thread - when will extra stock be ordered for the Barrhead and EK electrification. They won't need to order any.

Another aspect of the reductions is that it will ease the shortage of drivers, They must be looking to end the Sunday overtime premium, which ought to bring an end to the whole dispute.

The current dispute has nothing to do with the enhanced Sunday payment - all grades still receive that for booking on. The dispute is all about enhanced rest day working payments Mon-Sat. Given that Covid seriously impacted the driver training program for almost 165 trainee drivers there will still be a need for rest day working to fullfill the planned reduced service next May as the majority of those trainees will not be qualified by then and ASLEF is extremely unlikely to agree an extension to rest day working unless the current enhanced payment continues.

 

[Bikeman78]

Ayr gets 1tp2h fast again

Ayr services definately should be 4tph
Same with the E&G, which it gets back in peak times, however they should get rid of the Lenzie and Bishopbriggs stops

Back in the day, the Ayr trains were the fast trains to Kilwinning. Now they are usually the slowest. I see Gourock will usually only have one fast train every two hours. Quite brilliantly, it departs two minutes ahead of the Wemyss Bay train. It would make more sense to run at XX:25, preferably hourly, to provide a better spread of trains to Port Glasgow.

 

[route101]

Everything is excpet the E&G and Argyle/North Clyde lines which is awful

I thought Neilston was every half hour?

 

[alangla]

I thought Neilston was every half hour?

1935, 2035, 2136 then half hourly till what’s presumably another typo with 2 2305 services.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210820/6OmPLUApQ1vK8kBsDBWHk17IRaepuNVSHMoRblGMywg/may_22_-_glasgow_south_electrics_timetable.pdf

 

[DunsBus]

The Borders would also suffer enormously under independence, as people regularly live, work and conduct business on both sides of the border.

As you'll have gathered from my moniker, I live ten miles from the border. My nearest main line station is Berwick, which is also where Borders Buses are based, and where our nearest major shops are. Independence would cause no end of upheaval down here.

 

[backontrack]

Also in regards to the Far North, the shortest route Inverness - Tain - Helmsdale - Thurso/Wick is sadly by road due to the three bridges that massively trimmed the distance (Kessock - 1982, Cromarty - 1979, and Dornoch - 1994).

Furthermore, it would be as good as impossible to serve the request stops with a National Express/Scottish Citylink replacement bus service due to the very narrow country lanes.

I've had a quick look at the North Highlands, and it seems that the short workings to Dingwall and Invergordon after lunchtime have been reinstated as per pre pandemic. Were these the trains that whenever there were delays it caused the timetable for the rest of the day to collapse?

That's true, alas. Dornoch was a missed opportunity for the line, but the Beauly and Dingwall routing of the FNL is a good point of difference from the road.

There's a few canny enhancements ahead that would massively improve things, Lentran is in GRIP3 planning stage so that would stop the Easter Ross commuter trains from snarling up the timetable, and allow for more of them. Then you could remove all but the loop stations from Thurso trains south of Tain.

 

[cf111]

Got to love these posters not based in Scotland wanting half of Scotland to lose what rail service it already has. The North and West Highlands need more and better connectivity, not less.

If you look at the detailed per route figures, the per passenger subsidy on the WHL is around a third of that for the local services into Aberdeen. Demand for between a third and half the year has been suppressed by lack of capacity on that route. Even though the refurb of the 156s has been modest, the trains are cleaner and look in much better condition and the addition of power sockets and wifi make them more appealing. Between the wifi and mobile its possible to work online on a good proportion of the route.

If things were rejigged to offer better capacity and passenger facilities, first class or a scenic class at a modest premium could help close the revenue gap. Those better tourist trains operating year round would provide facilities that would make the WHL significantly more appealing to residents of the areas it serves as a year round transport option. While traditional commuting will drop off, with more working from 'home' and more ability to work on the move, trains that are comfortable, well equipped with power sockets, tables, good internet connectivity and catering have the potential to attract modal shift even where journey times are not that competitive with road.

I was concerned that the changes might have resulted in a drop in service levels between Inverness-Wick/Thurso and Kyle as well as the WHL, so at least there is a level of continuity there. Has the plan to use 158s on the WHL been abandoned? As you say the 156s are actually relatively nice after their refurb but I think the 158s would be an improvement, the refurbished ones working north of Inverness (and I'm assuming south too now) are such an improvement, the power sockets alone are a huge plus point.

One thing I would love to see, somewhat selfishly perhaps as I don't know if there's really a huge demand for it, would be a co-ordination of the Kyle trains and the 917/915/916 CityLink services between Glasgow/Inverness and Uig/Portree. I would much rather get the train from Inverness to Kyle and vice versa than get the bus all the way from Inverness to Portree.

 

[Journeyman]

As you'll have gathered from my moniker, I live ten miles from the border. My nearest main line station is Berwick, which is also where Borders Buses are based, and where our nearest major shops are. Independence would cause no end of upheaval down here.

Oh, yeah. You'd effectively be buying your groceries in a foreign country, using a different currency.

 

[backontrack]

One thing I would love to see, somewhat selfishly perhaps as I don't know if there's really a huge demand for it, would be a co-ordination of the Kyle trains and the 917/915/916 CityLink services between Glasgow/Inverness and Uig/Portree. I would much rather get the train from Inverness to Kyle and vice versa than get the bus all the way from Inverness to Portree.

Will never happen sadly, but I'm all for it. Proper bi-modal integration is another thing that can help get cars off roads.

 

[InOban]

As you'll have gathered from my moniker, I live ten miles from the border. My nearest main line station is Berwick, which is also where Borders Buses are based, and where our nearest major shops are. Independence would cause no end of upheaval down here.

Borders buses is a subsidiary of Craigs of Campbeltown (aka West Coast Motors)! But I agree about the integration of the economy either side. Carlisle and Dumfries are making a joint bid for City of Culture.

 

[geoffk]

Oh, yeah. You'd effectively be buying your groceries in a foreign country, using a different currency.

Living in Devon I've no axe to grind but couldn't the "common travel" area with Ireland be a model for an independent Scotland and its links with England? I suppose that would depend on the English government wanting it.

 

[Journeyman]

Living in Devon I've no axe to grind but couldn't the "common travel" area with Ireland be a model for an independent Scotland and its links with England? I suppose that would depend on the English government wanting it.

If Scotland is in the EU and England isn't, we'd have enormous problems. The NI protocol wouldn't work, because it would be a land border, so the "border in the Irish sea" technique, and keeping NI in the single market, would be impossible to implement.

Don't even go there. No-one has sensible answers to this.

 

[Starmill]

Don't even go there. No-one has sensible answers to this.

Absolutely. And of course it's well off topic for here.

 

[Bill57p9]

One thing I would love to see, somewhat selfishly perhaps as I don't know if there's really a huge demand for it, would be a co-ordination of the Kyle trains and the 917/915/916 CityLink services between Glasgow/Inverness and Uig/Portree. I would much rather get the train from Inverness to Kyle and vice versa than get the bus all the way from Inverness to Portree.

158s are not cleared for much of the Western Scotland, including the WHL, due to platform clearance issues. Obviously anything is achievable with sufficient time and money, but given the lack of lifetime they have left and the lack of money all round I doubt 158s will make it onto WHL (or GSW metals), much as I agree they would be a vast improvement especially given the journey times involved.

 

[John Bishop]

I think with this recent announcement that we’re getting an insight of what life under Transport Scotland will be like for Scotrail in the future. One just needs to look at the Cal Mac fiasco to see a working example of the ineptitude within TS. It really doesn’t fill me with confidence at all.

 

[snookertam]

For the people who use the Cathcart Circle who are losing services there is always the option of the far more frequent bus services in the area.

The point is we prefer to use the train, it’s far quicker.

No bus services in the vicinity of Langside or Maxwell Park I would add.

I get the impression some seem to support elements of this proposal as long as it’s somewhere else that takes the cuts.