TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes Timetable 2022

[Greybeard33]

The Cleethorpes - Manchester trains have poor timekeeping already so a great idea to import the delays into getting a path via Castlefield and to delay the stopper from Oxford Road...

And like with the EMR services there will be delays on platform 14 when everybody alights before more passengers board

The Task Force Public Consultation document gave the following rationale:

The Cleethorpes/Nottingham service via Sheffield to Liverpool is increased to a standard 2 trains per hour. This means there is no longer a through service from Sheffield to Manchester Airport; a movement which is very operationally challenging at Manchester Piccadilly. Passengers from Warrington Central would also need to change at Piccadilly to access the Airport.

• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations. This offers an improved pattern for most stations rather than the present pattern of alternate hours at some smaller stations. The two Liverpool-Sheffield services would call at the larger intermediate stations such as Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.

The Liverpool to Airport service instead runs to Cleethorpes; those travelling beyond Manchester to Sheffield get an extra direct service. Passengers for the Airport change at Piccadilly, with same-platform interchange possible and a frequent service. The Cleethorpes and Nottingham trains would be exactly 30 minutes apart, providing an even interval service. These changes are designed to simplify and reduce the number of train movements on the approach to Manchester Piccadilly.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/951401/manchester-recovery-task-force-public-consultation.pdf

 

[kevconnor]

Punctuality on the Hope Valley has been better than ever since the Airport was cut to Piccadilly.

The Hope Valley only works when trains run to their schedule; as mentioned this will simply cause delays and have knock on effects all round !

Just as we thought progress was being made for Sheffield to Manchester commuters

My experience of using the Hope valley on a regular basis goes back to the mid 00's when I use to be at uni in Sheffield but then traveled back to see family and friends in Manchester. At the time I recall initially, as was Arriva Trains Northern and Central Trains having poor punctuality but these always seemed to be issues either east or west of the Hope Valley and it always appeared to me that many trains were able to make up some lost time on the Hope Valley. Is this still the case or is there now less slack in the timetables?

 

[Dspatula]

Punctuality on the Hope Valley has been better than ever since the Airport was cut to Piccadilly.

The Hope Valley only works when trains run to their schedule; as mentioned this will simply cause delays and have knock on effects all round !

Just as we thought progress was being made for Sheffield to Manchester commuters

I don't think they'll be much danger to Sheffield Manchester commuters as the biggest cause of issues on Liverpool Man Airport train was unit faults and there's a lot less danger of that 185s.
When it actually runs the Liverpool man airport is regularly up to five minutes early at Oxford Rd at that was with stopper running just in front of it.
TPE also have the advantage of depot at Liverpool and staff who sign both routes from Liverpool.
I think its Manchester Warrington commuters in most danger as I can see this train getting terminated at Piccadilly or diverted via chat moss if its late which it seems to be quite often.

 

[Killingworth]

Punctuality on the Hope Valley has been better than ever since the Airport was cut to Piccadilly.

The Hope Valley only works when trains run to their schedule; as mentioned this will simply cause delays and have knock on effects all round !

Just as we thought progress was being made for Sheffield to Manchester commuters

This thread is based on the consultation for the ECML where a draft South Pennine timetable has been added. As I understand it the Liverpool change is now being assumed although it is subject to further consultation and may need a new or retitled thread in due course.

I share Meridian's concerns. Truncating the Airport service at Piccadilly has improved reliability.

TPE westbound delays can come at Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Meadowhall and Sheffield before the Hope Valley. They're not too bad, but often delay the following Hope Valley stopping service. Extending through Castlefield to Liverpool is assuming a lot from the recasting.

However the eastbound service extended from Liverpool will be at the risk of significant loss of punctuality along the Hope Valley. By all operators.

 

[CICERO55]

So when will the "final" and definite timetable be published for the ECML changes in 2022 and for the manchester recovery timetable before it? thanks

 

[Ianno87]

So when will the "final" and definite timetable be published for the ECML changes in 2022 and for the manchester recovery timetable before it? thanks

12 weeks before implementation.

 

[Chalky2583]

TPE have at some point in the past couple days posted the proposed timetable for the TPE South route on their May 2022 ECML consultation page.

This seems an interesting move when the consultation closes tomorrow - however it mentions on said page that they "also expect to issue a consultation on service changes required as part of the Manchester Rail Task Force process" so perhaps this upload is in preparation of that.

I've attached the timetable to this post.

Are these timetables that TPE have published?

 

[js1000]

Is the Northern Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central really going in 2022? It was previously operated by TPE and is regarded as Northern's primary blue riband route so not convinced Northern will give it up easily.

Nor can I see Liverpool being happy losing their express rail link to Manchester Airport. Would they want this replaced with a service to Sheffield? The 29 stop service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport which effectively doubles up as a single commuter service for both cities is hardly an adequate replacement with sufficient room for luggage.

Removing the direct Sheffield link to Manchester Airport is warranted however. It was a needless and daft manoeuvre across the throat of Piccadilly. Thank god they stopped that - the real question is what took them so long.

 

[Watershed]

is regarded as Northern's primary blue riband route so not convinced Northern will give it up easily.

It's not a question of them deciding whether or not they're going to give it up. It's down to the service pattern that is ultimately recommended, and which operator that best fits with.

Northern have reduced and even totally stopped running the Liverpool-Airport via Warrington service countless times since it was transferred to them. In fact it hasn't run at all this month.

I suspect they would actually be rather glad to get rid of it, certainly in a day-to-day operational sense.

Nor can I see Liverpool being happy losing their express rail link to Manchester Airport

I very much sympathise with this view. Unfortunately, as the MRTF consultation has showed, the current infrastructure simply doesn't allow everyone to have what they need (let alone what they deserve or want).

the real question is what took them so long.

Politics, as usual! Sheffield's Mayor is still going on about when the link will be 'restored'. How about never...

 

[Ianno87]

Is the Northern Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central really going in 2022? It was previously operated by TPE and is regarded as Northern's primary blue riband route so not convinced Northern will give it up easily.

Northern will do whatever DfT (the paymasters) instruct them to do.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Northern will do whatever DfT (the paymasters) instruct them to do.

Northern is owned by the operator of last resort anyway

 

[Peter A]

Are these timetables that TPE have published?

Yes, these were published and available on the TPE website for a couple of days before being removed when the ECML consultation ended.

 

[urbophile]

<<• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations.>>

Dose this mean stopping trains west of Warrington are reduced to one an hour? Time for Merseyrail to take over.

 

[Watershed]

<<• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations.>>

Dose this mean stopping trains west of Warrington are reduced to one an hour? Time for Merseyrail to take over.

Stopping services east of Warrington Central are reduced to one per hour.

Whilst the CLC should have been electrified a long time ago, it hasn't yet, so Merseyrail aren't taking over anything.

 

[Greybeard33]

<<• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations.>>

Dose this mean stopping trains west of Warrington are reduced to one an hour? Time for Merseyrail to take over.

No. Clarified elsewhere in the consultation document:

• 1 semi fast train per hour between Liverpool and Cleethorpes, via Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly, calling at larger intermediate stations such as Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.
• 1 fast train per hour between Liverpool and Nottingham, via Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly.

• In peak periods, 2 stopping trains per hour between Warrington and Manchester Oxford Road, calling all stations.
• Off-peak, 1 stopping train per hour between Warrington and Manchester Oxford Road calling at all stations.
• 2 trains per hour between Liverpool and Warrington Central calling at all stations.

Splitting the stoppers at Warrington should enable them to be retimed to depart later from Liverpool and Oxford Road, so they are less likely to be delayed by a late running semi-fast.

 

[47827]

Puts things back a few decades. In the 90s daytime stopping services generally terminated at Warrington Central and less frequent Manchester stoppers helps with Castlefield performance. For a time after that there was then an hourly daytime Liverpool to Manchester stopper as far as just past Warrington to Glazebrook or something similar then a Manchester to Irlam stopper which sometimes produced heritage Met Camm DMU's too. Much easier to maintain performance on the route if we go back to the older system though as there isn't the infrastructure to support the current service unless is everything is running punctually.

Picture of the old Irlam stopper https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/8513

 

[childwallblues]

What was the point of building Warrington West station with its large car park if there are to be no trains to Manchester? It also loses its direct Airport service,

 

[js1000]

What was the point of building Warrington West station with its large car park if there are to be no trains to Manchester? It also loses its direct Airport service,

The answer is clearly no point at all!

 

[childwallblues]

The answer is clearly no point at all!

Spot on. I worked in the booking office at Warrington Central many years ago and season tickets were in my estimation 70% towards Manchester and 30% towards Liverpool. One of the reasons West was built was to reduce the number of cars parking up at Central to catch the train.

 

[stephen rp]

What was the point of building Warrington West station with its large car park if there are to be no trains to Manchester? It also loses its direct Airport service,

That would be £20m of public money wasted... No reason why the TPE Cleethorpes service could not stop at WAW (leaving Lime St at xx17 before the local).

And I can think of few things more likely to delay other services than locals standing in platforms at WAC, with two an hour from/to Liverpool shunting in and out of the siding to change platform.

At least we'd lose EM's narrow end door 158s taking 5 mins at Picc and Ox Rd to offload and load. (Not at the moment - very few back on the route.)

 

[Ianno87]

That would be £20m of public money wasted... No reason why the TPE Cleethorpes service could not stop at WAW (leaving Lime St at xx17 before the local).

Although careful not to erode the Lime Street turnround time too much, you'll need some recovery for through operation from Cleethorpes.

 

[stephen rp]

Although careful not to erode the Lime Street turnround time too much, you'll need some recovery for through operation from Cleethorpes.

If it's that dodgy, they should not be going via Castlefield.

 

[Ianno87]

If it's that dodgy, they should not be going via Castlefield.

It's fine to go via Castlefield, provided that you have decent turnround before coming back again. And the Liverpool-Cleethorpes working is part of the general thinning out of service to make the whole thing robust.

Adding an extra stop potentially makes the different between a decent 16 minute turnround time, and a getting-cosy 10 minute turnround time (adding 3 minutes or so each way)

 

[Killingworth]

Although careful not to erode the Lime Street turnround time too much, you'll need some recovery for through operation from Cleethorpes.

At least the current Norwich - Liverpool can recover 20 minutes or so by taking the Dore curve and missing out Sheffield. Once a Cleethorpes service starts late it's chances of recovery aren't great, rather the reverse.

As a Sheffield user of the services I can see the Northern stopper being a very useful backup. 20 minutes longer, usually cheaper, and now with decent rolling stock.

Of course the resolved (?) Castlefield congestion will help, but delays further west and east will still happen.

 

[BeijingDave]

The Liverpool-Manchester Airport service via Warrington Central is a busy service as far as Manchester Piccadilly. Mainly foreign tourists from thereon.
Liverpool to Cleethorpes will be an excellent route opening up the possibility of day trips to the seaside from Liverpool.

Can't see many Liverpudlians going to Cleethorpes for a day at the seaside.

Opening a station at Talacre would be a much better bet for getting scousers to the seaside efficiently.

 

[Killingworth]

Nobody going to Cleethorpes from anywhere west of Scunthorpe today, Keadby Canal bridge is jammed! That's not for the first time recently either.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Nobody going to Cleethorpes from anywhere west of Scunthorpe today, Keadby Canal bridge is jammed! That's not for the first time recently either.

whats happened?

 

[Killingworth]

whats happened?

Picture on TPE Twitter looks like a steel rope has snapped.

 

[Djgr]

Can't see many Liverpudlians going to Cleethorpes for a day at the seaside.

Opening a station at Talacre would be a much better bet for getting scousers to the seaside efficiently.

For Liverpudlians the seaside is 15 minutes away on the Merseyrail!

 

[507020]

For Liverpudlians the seaside is 15 minutes away on the Merseyrail!

More like 45 minutes…