Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Jordan Adam]

I wonder what "reinvigorating the Dennis brand" will entail; could we be looking at all-ADL/Plaxton coaches in future?

I am surprised that ADL haven't tried out integral coaches yet.

When Mercedes dropped the Vario chassis a few years back in favour of the larger Atego it would've been the perfect time for ADL to come in with a light weight rear engine midi coach seating 30-40 people, instead they came along with the marmite Cheetah XL on the Atego chassis. Which barely lasted 3 years before being quietly dropped from the Plaxton range. The Mercedes Atego chassis isn't a bad product, but it's a truck chassis and when you're on an Atego based coach you can tell straight it's a truck chassis as the ride isn't as refined and the engine particularly when idling sounds like a 30 year old tractor...

Arguably one of the biggest success stories in the last few years in the coach industry has been the Yutong TC9, it's essentially the current day equivalent of a Cheetah, a small cheap to run go anywhere do anything vehicle. Except the TC9 offers a far better passenger experience and a big coach feel. Perhaps shouldn't come as a surprise that they're popping up practically everywhere now.

I could see a integral version of the Leopard with a Cummins / ZF Ecolife driveline doing well; essentially a current day Javelin. Although again with the Leopard it's another product that's probably not doing as well as Plaxton would've hoped. Yet another success story from a less known manufacturer this time in the 70 seat sector has to be the Mobipeople Explorer.

 

[GusB]

It always surprised me that ADL dropped the Javelin chassis as it still seemed to be a popular choice for smaller independents for schools/local hires.

The Javelin fitted neatly into the gap that was left behind when Ford and Bedford exited the market and, as you say, it tended to be smaller independents that took it on, presumably because it was a lighter weight coach than those available from the other manufacturers at the time. It was quite old, though; the earliest chassis was built in 1986 and the last in 2010, so it had a good production run. I developed a bit of a soft spot for them when one of my local operators, Maynes of Buckie, started taking them to replace their Bedfords.

I am surprised that ADL haven't tried out integral coaches yet.

When Mercedes dropped the Vario chassis a few years back in favour of the larger Atego it would've been the perfect time for ADL to come in with a light weight rear engine midi coach seating 30-40 people, instead they came along with the marmite Cheetah XL on the Atego chassis. Which barely lasted 3 years before being quietly dropped from the Plaxton range. The Mercedes Atego chassis isn't a bad product, but it's a truck chassis and when you're on an Atego based coach you can tell straight it's a truck chassis as the ride isn't as refined and the engine particularly when idling sounds like a 30 year old tractor...

Arguably one of the biggest success stories in the last few years in the coach industry has been the Yutong TC9, it's essentially the current day equivalent of a Cheetah, a small cheap to run go anywhere do anything vehicle. Except the TC9 offers a far better passenger experience and a big coach feel. Perhaps shouldn't come as a surprise that they're popping up practically everywhere now.

I could see a integral version of the Leopard with a Cummins / ZF Ecolife driveline doing well; essentially a current day Javelin. Although again with the Leopard it's another product that's probably not doing as well as Plaxton would've hoped. Yet another success story from a less known manufacturer this time in the 70 seat sector has to be the Mobipeople Explorer.

Technically they have had integral coaches in the past; the R-series was an integral that was mostly built with Plaxton bodies, although there were some that were bodied by Caetano. With only 98 built, it was nowhere near as successful as the Javelin, though.

 

[GALLANTON]

Wasn't the R series know for being about as reliable as a chocolate tea pot compared to the more rugged Javelin?

 

[jammy36]

Developing a new chassis from scratch (even using off the shelf components) would be an expensive undertaking. I struggle to see how ADL could make such a proposition viable. The UK coach market is relatively small and I can't see it being sufficient to warrant the development costs? That would mean ADL having to gain a foothold in other countries, which I think would require even greater financial commitment in terms of sales/after-sales/support network.

Against this they'd be competing against global players with well established products and support networks (the big players in the coach world like Volvo, Scania, Mercedes have such support through their commercial (truck/lorry) vehicle network).

As well as competing against well established products and support network, they'd also have to complete against other's finance offerings. Mercedes for example have taken a substantive share of the UK market as a result of some exceptionally competitive finance packages - they can't be making much margin on each coach, but that doesn't matter at the volumes their Turkey plant is working to. Plus there is a cachet attached to having a three pointed on the front your.

I can't see an all ADL coach being anything other than a fairly niche player and I'm not sure being a niche player would warrant the investment needed to develop a new integral coach range.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Admittedly some of their coach products are slightly better but what would put me off buying any ADL product where I in a position to do so so would be built quality. I know we have quite a few fanboys on here and I'm going to get shot down for saying it but whether it's a bus four service work or a coach for longer distance the quality for me is just not there and and I would be looking at alternative products for anything and everything that I bought what as an operator.

 

[MotCO]

It always surprised me that ADL dropped the Javelin chassis as it still seemed to be a popular choice for smaller independents for schools/local hires.

Wasn't it dropped since it was not Euro V (or was it Euro IV) compatible?

 

[Eyersey468]

Wasn't it dropped since it was not Euro V (or was it Euro IV) compatible?

Must have been Euro V as they were still being made in 2008

 

[Tom Gallacher]

As others have alluded to the biggest problem ADL have is that they don't have a dealer network that can cope with warranty stuff and generally help the operator with any problems. Their biggest customer for the Javelin was always the MOD both when they ran their own fleet and after that when they contracted out this to LEX and subsequently Babcock Land. A consequence of the rundown in manpower is that you obviously need less transport to shuffle them around.

Between 2002 and 2003 the MOD took around 150 chassis. They were replaced in 2014 by 63 Volvo B8R's. That tells you what you need to know.

 

[GusB]

Developing a new chassis from scratch (even using off the shelf components) would be an expensive undertaking. I struggle to see how ADL could make such a proposition viable. The UK coach market is relatively small and I can't see it being sufficient to warrant the development costs? That would mean ADL having to gain a foothold in other countries, which I think would require even greater financial commitment in terms of sales/after-sales/support network.

That's exactly what they've been doing with their current product line-up, though - designing from scratch. Just because they don't produce a traditional chassis doesn't mean that they haven't got the expertise to do it.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

That's exactly what they've been doing with their current product line-up, though - designing from scratch. Just because they don't produce a traditional chassis doesn't mean that they haven't got the expertise to do it.

They certainly have the expertise but without the dealer network you'd struggle to sell a coach outside the UK. They can get orders for buses because, in the main, they are going to one or two operators who will run their fleet relatively local to the operating base. Coach operators don't have that luxury so they need a comprehensive dealer network to cover any emergencies.

The costs of setting that up would be enormous.

 

[jammy36]

That's exactly what they've been doing with their current product line-up, though - designing from scratch. Just because they don't produce a traditional chassis doesn't mean that they haven't got the expertise to do it.

Having the experience to do something doesn't equate to it being a financially viable proposition. Also how much expertise do they retain... much of their product line-up, including all of their coach output, relies on third-party chassis. The enviro chassis range is well established, but with a lineage back to the Dart and Trident. The EV range is currently reliant on BYD and I think the last coach chassis engineered in house would have been the R-Series which was developed in the last millennium and was hardly a runaway success.

To me the barriers to entry seem high, the financial risk significant and the reward likely low. Happy to be proved wrong, but I'd think a new integral coach range would be a low priority for ADL's R&D budget.

 

[GusB]

Having the experience to do something doesn't equate to it being a financially viable proposition. Also how much expertise do they retain... much of their product line-up, including all of their coach output, relies on third-party chassis. The enviro chassis range is well established, but with a lineage back to the Dart and Trident. The EV range is currently reliant on BYD and I think the last coach chassis engineered in house would have been the R-Series which was developed in the last millennium and was hardly a runaway success.

To me the barriers to entry seem high, the financial risk significant and the reward likely low. Happy to be proved wrong, but I'd think a new integral coach range would be a low priority for ADL's R&D budget.

Well, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[Swanny200]

They already do the Panther Cub which is in the 35-40 seat territory, although I have seen the grand total of about 2 since it was first announced. Unsure on what chassis it is available on though, with the Dennis side of it, even municipal and fire engines went to the likes of Mercedes and Scania by mid 2000's, why all of a sudden municipals stopped using Dennis I don't know, maybe someone here is more enlightened.

 

[jammy36]

Well, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Don't shoot the messenger!

I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, I'm just not sure how "reinvigorating the Dennis brand" translates into developing a new coach chassis. I'd have expected this would be more about transitioning the ICE (internal combustion engine) led chassis range into a zero emissions world. That might include coaches, but developing in-house non-ICE Dennis bus chassis options as opposed to tie-ins with other manufacturers would seem more of a priority.

 

[Snow1964]

They already do the Panther Cub which is in the 35-40 seat territory, although I have seen the grand total of about 2 since it was first announced. Unsure on what chassis it is available on though, with the Dennis side of it, even municipal and fire engines went to the likes of Mercedes and Scania by mid 2000's, why all of a sudden municipals stopped using Dennis I don't know, maybe someone here is more enlightened.

Dennis was founded by 2 brothers
Initially produced various vehicles from Rodboro building Guildford, but just after First World War moved to Woodbridge (now site of light industrial and retail estate).

By 1930s made everything from lawn mowers, later becoming famous for fire engines and municipal vehicles. By late 1980s the municipal vehicles moved to Warwick, with truck cabs being made in Blackpool.

Ownership got messy, Hestair and later Trinity Holdings got involved. In 1991 the Guildford factory moved to Slyfield, initially making buses and fire engines. 1998 saw Mayflower Group take over, Soon followed by Transbus International, which then went bust in 2004. During all this hiatus was when Dennis commercial Vehicles lost its way.

Subsequently got ADL, with Alexander (of Scotland) and Plaxton (Yorkshire) and more recently Canadian NFI as parent. They are now shutting the Slyfield, Guildford chassis plant and moving some development and technical staff to new site by Farnborough airport (opening 2022).

Really these days Dennis is not much of a brand. You probably won’t see the word on front of a vehicle very much now, like not seeing names like Foden or Scamell either. I’m not sure why NFI thinks Dennis is still a strong brand as it faded like most British heavy vehicle brands 20-50 years ago.

 

[gka472l]

ADL to supply 20 hydrogen buses to Merseytravel for the 10A between Liverpool & St Helens, which is jointly operated by Stagecoach & Arriva Merseyside https://theguideliverpool.com/suppl...ool-city-regions-new-fleet-of-hydrogen-buses/

Supplier chosen to deliver Liverpool City Region’s new fleet of hydrogen buses​

The supplier has been chosen to deliver the first vehicles of a new, zero-emission hydrogen bus fleet for the Liverpool City Region.​

Alexander Dennis Limited (ADL) a UK based bus manufacturer was selected following a competitive tendering process.
The 20-strong, state-of-the-art fleet will be directly purchased through the Liverpool City Region’s Transforming Cities Fund, and, like the new trains for the Merseyrail network, will be owned by the people of the city region.
The new, purpose-built buses will be part of a new generation of hydrogen vehicles from ADL, which are designed to be more energy efficient to cover greater distances between refuelling.
The buses will carry a range of special features for passengers including wireless phone charging and internet access. The vehicles will also have improved accessibility – with increased capacity for wheelchair users, and audio and visual announcements for next stops.
It is planned that the buses will initially serve the region’s busiest route – the 10A between St Helens and Liverpool city centre, jointly operated by Arriva and Stagecoach.
Subject to final agreement of project plan the first vehicles could be delivered as soon as 2022.

 

[GusB]

When referring to external sources, please remember that we require the following:

• A link to the source
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Thanks

 

[RELL6L]

ADL to supply 20 hydrogen buses to Merseytravel for the 10A between Liverpool & St Helens, which is jointly operated by Stagecoach & Arriva Merseyside https://theguideliverpool.com/suppl...ool-city-regions-new-fleet-of-hydrogen-buses/

This is interesting news. So are Arriva and Stagecoach each going to have hydrogen fuelling facilities? Or is the city region going to have a dedicated facility? Given that the vehicles will no doubt be in a special livery will the two companies each have specific vehicles or will the region just make X (8?) available each day to each of the operators?

 

[Volvodart]

Company behind 'Boris Bus' launching two new clean energy buses as it races to meet demand for green transport

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Bus-launching-two-new-clean-energy-buses.html

By HARRIET DENNYS, FINANCIAL MAIL ON SUNDAY​

PUBLISHED: 21:50, 4 September 2021 | UPDATED: 12:56, 5 September 2021
The company behind the 'Boris Bus' is launching two new clean energy buses as it races to meet demand for green transport.
Wrightbus, run by JCB heir Jo Bamford, will this month launch a single-deck electric bus, the GB Kite Electroliner, and a single-deck bus powered by hydrogen, the GB Kite Hydroliner.
The hydrogen model has a range of 450 miles and refuels in nine minutes. The electric bus has a 200-mile range and charges in less than three hours.

The low-carbon buses will be manufactured at the Wrightbus plant in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, which is taking on 300 more staff, to take its workforce up to 930.
Wrightbus also makes a double-deck electric bus and the 'Boris Bus' – the 21st Century version of London's diesel Routemasters.

​

Late last year, it won a £50million order for 100 hydrogen and electric buses from Translink, Northern Ireland's state-backed bus company.

Bamford, 43, son of JCB tycoon Lord Bamford, bought Wrightbus out of administration in 2019.
He said: 'Introducing two new world-leading products is incredibly satisfying, and shows the marked determination we all have to make sure that this business is a world-leading success.'

 

[F Great Eastern]

The names of these vehicles are terrible.

Whoever comes up with them really is in the wrong job.

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps Wrightbus are "flying a kite" to determine operator interest?

 

[cnjb8]

Company behind 'Boris Bus' launching two new clean energy buses as it races to meet demand for green transport

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Bus-launching-two-new-clean-energy-buses.html

Assuming these are the single deck zero emission buses, they don’t seem to be on Wright's website as of yet.

 

[GALLANTON]

I'd imagine they'll be put on the website in due course.

 

[KGGXXXY]

I assume with Hawk & Kite (GB prefix aside), they are going with a bird theme for new names.

 

[Mikey C]

Dennis was founded by 2 brothers
Initially produced various vehicles from Rodboro building Guildford, but just after First World War moved to Woodbridge (now site of light industrial and retail estate).

By 1930s made everything from lawn mowers, later becoming famous for fire engines and municipal vehicles. By late 1980s the municipal vehicles moved to Warwick, with truck cabs being made in Blackpool.

Ownership got messy, Hestair and later Trinity Holdings got involved. In 1991 the Guildford factory moved to Slyfield, initially making buses and fire engines. 1998 saw Mayflower Group take over, Soon followed by Transbus International, which then went bust in 2004. During all this hiatus was when Dennis commercial Vehicles lost its way.

Subsequently got ADL, with Alexander (of Scotland) and Plaxton (Yorkshire) and more recently Canadian NFI as parent. They are now shutting the Slyfield, Guildford chassis plant and moving some development and technical staff to new site by Farnborough airport (opening 2022).

Really these days Dennis is not much of a brand. You probably won’t see the word on front of a vehicle very much now, like not seeing names like Foden or Scamell either. I’m not sure why NFI thinks Dennis is still a strong brand as it faded like most British heavy vehicle brands 20-50 years ago.

It's hardly fair to compare "Dennis" with the likes of Foden or Scammell, seeing that the brand on the buses, seen all over the world is "Alexander Dennis".

 

[Volvodart]

Assuming these are the single deck zero emission buses, they don’t seem to be on Wright's website as of yet.

SINGLE DECK​

ZERO-EMISSION​

 

[Mikey C]

The names of these vehicles are terrible.

Whoever comes up with them really is in the wrong job.

ADL must be bemused at the marketing strategies at their UK rivals, Wrights, with their weird new names, or the confusion of the split Optare/Switch branding.

I assume with Hawk & Kite (GB prefix aside), they are going with a bird theme for new names.

Will the Streetlite be rename GB Turkey?

 

[Swanny200]

ADL must be bemused at the marketing strategies at their UK rivals, Wrights, with their weird new names, or the confusion of the split Optare/Switch branding


Will the Streetlite be rename GB Turkey

I would have preferred it to be called Dodo, as it will be extinct along with most of the company if Bamford carries on along this line. All the way along he seems to have thought that a a bad name change and new drivetrains will have everyone flocking back to the Wrightbus brand. I cannot see it happening.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The devil will I think being the detail. Will they be able to maintain a high quality build if they start doing larger numbers? Will they be easily maintained and reliable and liked by drivers passengers and managers? will they live up to the expectations of the people who bought them? If a company buys a large fleet say 30 in one go and has them on the road for 18 months where they haven't had any major issues and aren't rattling themselves to pieces like some other manufacturers and are generally well received by everyone who has to have anything to do with them then they could be on to a winner.

 

[Belfastmarty]

I would have preferred it to be called Dodo, as it will be extinct along with most of the company if Bamford carries on along this line. All the way along he seems to have thought that a a bad name change and new drivetrains will have everyone flocking back to the Wrightbus brand. I cannot see it happening.

Wrightbus are absolutely on the right track. Every vehicle manufacturer on the planet is rushing headlong to have EVs in their product range. Wrightbus customers now have the choice of diesel, hydrogen or battery drivetrain for both single and double deck vehicles, and all on their own chassis. And as they have recently taken on more permanent staff it appears customers are indeed coming back to them.