Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[voyagerdude220]

I've messaged Avanti on Facebook and they state there are no restrictions preventing Priv ticket holders from paying the appropriate fee to upgrade to Standard Premium.

 

[AlterEgo]

The obvious answer might be to make Coach D SP. It's not as good as 1st but it is better than the rest of the train.

Or are there now sets without an all tables coach?

This in fact used to be a hybrid first class coach, which was occasionally laid up with antimacassars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This in fact used to be a hybrid first class coach, which was occasionally laid up with antimacassars.

Indeed it did, it also had the blue tartan seat covers from 1st and thicker padding on the seats. It's a shame they changed it back in a way as it would have worked as a standard premium coach (or maybe half of it). It's not as good as proper 1st on a Pendolino, being 2+2, but provided it was stated up front that that would be what you got on Voyagers it is still a considerable upgrade from the others.

(Indeed anyone who says Voyagers are all rubbish needs to try a ride in one of those coaches!)

 

[Flying Snail]

Anyone remember Silver Standard in the 1980s? Used it Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston a few times. Same seats with a coffee and a croissant thrown in, I think. But the was BR InterCity running a three-class service, so not that much different, really.

Silver Standard used a Std class coach and the few times I saw one they were empty.

Other attempts at an extra class would be a premium 1st on MML or early EMT where 1 FC coach was only for those on special tickets that included some sort of food service, I was rudely turfed out of this on one occasion when I had sat down on an otherwise unmarked seat in an unmarked 1st class coach with my not-good-enough 1st class ticket.

That was obviously not a great success as it was dropped.

It does leave me wondering if a 1st class ticket will be accepted in the Avanti Standard Premium coach? I can definitely see a quiet SP coach on a train with the small remaining 1st class accommodation being rammed as an attractive option.

If that is correct I only hope that all seats in coach K (including the ones at the very back) are kept free for first class ticket holders and that on board staff don't get funny about passengers sitting in them as has been reported frequently before.

Since that has been an ongoing issue for the whole life of the Pendolinos I would say the only way Avanti will have cracked this nut is by reducing the 1st class offering so much that they have removed the majority of the 1st class host jobs.

I'm not convinced people find multiple classes confusing, or that the people the higher classes are targeted at are the people griping about the size and complexity of fares.

The people the higher classes are targeted at will gripe about the size of the accommodation when the train they previously were all but guaranteed a bay of 4 to themselves on now has them crammed in with 2-3 other people.

In truth they probably won't gripe about it, they will just abandon the railways and travel in comfort in their car or endure a short domestic flight instead.

There has been a growth in the number of seat types/classes on airlines in recent years, and the success of Premium Economy shows that passengers can handle fine, and if anything, want, a tailored range of seat options. On short haul flights equivalent in travel time to many Avanti journeys plenty of airlines extra leg room seats and is basically what Avanti are offering the equivalent of

There really hasn't been a growth in the number of airline classes, those extra legroom seats on Low Cost airlines is little more than additional monetisation of seats that already existed due to regulations and airline design. Calling them an extra class is a massive stretch, much more than the extra legroom allows.

The classes on long haul have shifted up with Business replacing 1st as the normal premium product and 1st being phased out on many routes/airlines with the small remaining 1st offerings becoming an OTT private suite product that is essentially competing with charter jets.

 

[station_road]

It does leave me wondering if a 1st class ticket will be accepted in the Avanti Standard Premium coach? I can definitely see a quiet SP coach on a train with the small remaining 1st class accommodation being rammed as an attractive option.

Since that has been an ongoing issue for the whole life of the Pendolinos I would say the only way Avanti will have cracked this nut is by reducing the 1st class offering so much that they have removed the majority of the 1st class host jobs.

I've sat in Standard Premium a number of times when it has been quieter than First, and had no issues other than a check that I knew that I wouldn't get the free food/drink? None of the train managers seem surprised to see people choosing more space over the current food offer, it must be happening often.

Currently most off-peak trains seem to have only 1 First Class host, with two based in the shop (one doing the at-seat service)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since that has been an ongoing issue for the whole life of the Pendolinos I would say the only way Avanti will have cracked this nut is by reducing the 1st class offering so much that they have removed the majority of the 1st class host jobs.

If it proves more successful than proper 1st they could of course revert to two classes and return First back to what it used to be - a reasonable uplift for a more comfortable, spacious seat, and none of the gimmicks, like it is in most of Europe.

 

[Flying Snail]

If it proves more successful than proper 1st they could of course revert to two classes and return First back to what it used to be - a reasonable uplift for a more comfortable, spacious seat, and none of the gimmicks, like it is in most of Europe.

I doubt that will happen but if it did I'd be fine with it.

Much more likely is that it will be under-used and a failure as in general the bargain hunters who are tempted by cheap-1st are far more interested in the freebies than the premium seat/accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that will happen but if it did I'd be fine with it.

Much more likely is that it will be under-used and a failure as in general the bargain hunters who are tempted by cheap-1st are far more interested in the freebies than the premium seat/accommodation.

Bargain hunters are not what makes Avanti their money. If less is charged for 1st than about 1.5 x Standard then they are effectively losing income, as that is about the ratio of floorspace taken by the seat and surrounds in each class. So if on average 1st/SP doesn't break that threshold they might as well just convert it to Standard and forget about premium offerings.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I have conflicted views on this. I am happy to pay a reasonable premium to get first class seating but none of the extras.
My concern is that unlike on say eurostar where you can book any if the three classes in any of the trains, room permitting if course, with this you need to know if the train will be a pendolino or a voyager, and if a pendolino is it going to have one, two or anything in between coaches given over to 1st or SP.
It is this that causes the confusion, not the number of classes per se.

 

[Flying Snail]

Bargain hunters are not what makes Avanti their money. If less is charged for 1st than about 1.5 x Standard then they are effectively losing income, as that is about the ratio of floorspace taken by the seat and surrounds in each class. So if on average 1st/SP doesn't break that threshold they might as well just convert it to Standard and forget about premium offerings.

Indeed, bargain hunters are basically being excluded from 1st as there is no longer the capacity to offer cheap Advances and the SP upgrade won't attract many.

The economics of 1st has always relied on maxing out the full fare business travellers on a very small number of AM up and PM down trains with the relative quiet of 1st on the rest of the weekday services being an irrelevance. If that flow doesn't return in enough numbers then there may well be a point where providing the current 1st class offering is questionable.

While ditching 1st may seem the obvious option the question is can Avanti really gain any custom by offering 11 cars of Std class on their services? Yes there will be a handful of busy trains/periods where they could fill it but for most of the time it will be carting around just as much fresh air as off-peak 4 car 1st has done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have conflicted views on this. I am happy to pay a reasonable premium to get first class seating but none of the extras.
My concern is that unlike on say eurostar where you can book any if the three classes in any of the trains, room permitting if course, with this you need to know if the train will be a pendolino or a voyager, and if a pendolino is it going to have one, two or anything in between coaches given over to 1st or SP.
It is this that causes the confusion, not the number of classes per se.

If booking in advance you can see the seating plan of the diagrammed unit (or at least will be able to once Avanti turn their seat selector back on). If doing walk-up you don't have to pay for SP until you've taken a seat so there's no risk of paying and being unable to have it.

Indeed, bargain hunters are basically being excluded from 1st as there is no longer the capacity to offer cheap Advances and the SP upgrade won't attract many.

I disagree. It's poorly publicised so isn't attracting many now, but better publicised and with advance booking I can see it being very successful. It's basically just "weekday weekend First" and Weekend First has always been fairly popular.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

If booking in advance you can see the seating plan of the diagrammed unit (or at least will be able to once Avanti turn their seat selector back on). If doing walk-up you don't have to pay for SP until you've taken a seat so there's no risk of paying and being unable to have it.

True enough re seating plan for advance purchase, but even there I can see some people hitting a problem, and not just due to set swaps. Walk up, well great I can upgrade, but I would prefer to know what class I was in before getting on the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True enough re seating plan for advance purchase, but even there I can see some people hitting a problem, and not just due to set swaps. Walk up, well great I can upgrade, but I would prefer to know what class I was in before getting on the train.

Given that you can't know if you'll be sitting on the floor/standing or in a seat before you board in Standard, I'm not sure how it could be seen as anything other than an improvement.

The way to know what "class" you are in before getting on the train is to reserve a seat in advance.

 

[takno]

The people the higher classes are targeted at will gripe about the size of the accommodation when the train they previously were all but guaranteed a bay of 4 to themselves on now has them crammed in with 2-3 other people.

In truth they probably won't gripe about it, they will just abandon the railways and travel in comfort in their car or endure a short domestic flight instead.

If I'd ever managed to get a bay of 4 on west coast I might agree with you. Instead I've always been crammed in with a bunch of frightful commoners who used some kind of ghastly app to upgrade to a seat next to me for considerably less than I paid. A smaller first class where I feel like I'm sharing with my sort of people is most certainly preferable to that.

 

[Jimini]

If booking in advance you can see the seating plan of the diagrammed unit (or at least will be able to once Avanti turn their seat selector back on). If doing walk-up you don't have to pay for SP until you've taken a seat so there's no risk of paying and being unable to have it.



I disagree. It's poorly publicised so isn't attracting many now, but better publicised and with advance booking I can see it being very successful. It's basically just "weekday weekend First" and Weekend First has always been fairly popular.

That last point is the one that irks me, as they can't / don't offer SP on Voyagers, thus removing the option to upgrade at weekends for the usual premium payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That last point is the one that irks me, as they can't / don't offer SP on Voyagers, thus removing the option to upgrade at weekends for the usual premium payment.

It often wasn't offered on Voyagers anyway as there wasn't enough room once the First Advances had taken most of the seats up.

If I'd ever managed to get a bay of 4 on west coast I might agree with you. Instead I've always been crammed in with a bunch of frightful commoners who used some kind of ghastly app to upgrade to a seat next to me for considerably less than I paid. A smaller first class where I feel like I'm sharing with my sort of people is most certainly preferable to that.

I know this is almost certainly tongue in cheek, but if I was going to have to sit next to someone who genuinely had that attitude I'd rather sit in Standard!

 

[voyagerdude220]

It often wasn't offered on Voyagers anyway as there wasn't enough room once the First Advances had taken most of the seats up.

I must have been lucky as I never had issues upgrading on Super Voyagers using weekend First, even when it was rather busy.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Given that you can't know if you'll be sitting on the floor/standing or in a seat before you board in Standard, I'm not sure how it could be seen as anything other than an improvement.

The way to know what "class" you are in before getting on the train is to reserve a seat in advance.

Which is what I would endeavour to do. My main concern isn't that I think SP is bad it us just that I think Avanti's rolling stock is not ideal for its implementation. Yes I know their not having a uniform fleet of even pendolinos is not their fault.

I do wonder if it is actually the start of them getting rid of 1st class, if SP is popular, and I fell it will be, then maybe the numbers willing to hand over the annual income of the average small country to use 1st class will plummet and can then be dropped for commercial reasons. This of course would lead to the European system that you, and to be honest myself, would rather have, whereby 1st class is a reasonable multiple of standard.

 

[takno]

Which is what I would endeavour to do. My main concern isn't that I think SP is bad it us just that I think Avanti's rolling stock is not ideal for its implementation. Yes I know their not having a uniform fleet of even pendolinos is not their fault.

I do wonder if it is actually the start of them getting rid of 1st class, if SP is popular, and I fell it will be, then maybe the numbers willing to hand over the annual income of the average small country to use 1st class will plummet and can then be dropped for commercial reasons. This of course would lead to the European system that you, and to be honest myself, would rather have, whereby 1st class is a reasonable multiple of standard.

There's probably a degree of logic in saying that you have SP instead of 1st on Voyagers.

 

[Djgr]

There's probably a degree of logic in saying that you have SP instead of 1st on Voyagers.

Or they could just abandon this tomfoolery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or they could just abandon this tomfoolery.

It's not tomfoolery to a lot of us. It's an attractive offering.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Or they could just abandon this tomfoolery.

I don't agree that it us tomfoolery, if implemented properly then I can see it being a success, I guess my concerns are over implementation.

 

[takno]

Or they could just abandon this tomfoolery.

I think what you're suggesting is that they abandon an extremely good idea because of an edge case that won't make a blind bit of difference to the vast majority of the travelling public

 

[Butts]

It's not tomfoolery to a lot of us. It's an attractive offering.

Not as attractive as it's predecessor namely similarly priced Advanced 1st Class Tickets and all that went with them.

 

[Mountain Man]

I doubt that will happen but if it did I'd be fine with it.

Much more likely is that it will be under-used and a failure as in general the bargain hunters who are tempted by cheap-1st are far more interested in the freebies than the premium seat/accommodation.

Judging from my experience so far, it's anything but a failure. Even on a relatively quiet late morning weekday service out of Euston it was busy with people upgrading

 

[se1lad]

The new menus for first class are now up on the Avanti website:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/avanti-menus/september-2021/pendolino-first-class-menu-september-13.pdf

 

[Johnny Lewis]

The new menus for first class are now up on the Avanti website:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/avanti-menus/september-2021/pendolino-first-class-menu-september-13.pdf

Is it me, or is the Voyager and weekend menu IDENTICAL to the Pendolino menu? So is this confirmation that the First Class weekend service WILL be the same as a weekday, or is it just an error?

 

[takno]

The new menus for first class are now up on the Avanti website:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/avanti-menus/september-2021/pendolino-first-class-menu-september-13.pdf

Decent-looking menu. It's got a relatively limited number of ingredients so should be fairly deliverable, but formed up into a good number of options. They also appear to have got a bit better at merchandising - selling indifferent sandwiches and a couple of cakes as afternoon tea for example.

Will be interesting to see how good they are at delivering it, and whether they can convince some of their less-effective crew to up their game a bit, but overall delivering this menu to half the number of seats they had before should be something it's possible to do well and quite easily

 

[se1lad]

After the way the crew have been enthusing about the new menu, I am a little underwhelmed- as per Takno’s comment the crew will need to up their game, hopefully with a frequent drinks service to make it worthwhile - I’ve got one trip in first booked early October and I’ll then decide if I will stick to Std Premier going forward and self cater.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rubbish menu. Vegan and vegetarian for the whole of the day except breakfast and no hot food after breakfast either. Many trains, particularly the Scottish services, cross dinner time and none of that would replace an evening meal.

Standard Premium for me with a cold box from M+S from now on.