December 2021 Timetable change

[Peter749]

TPE Dec 2021
I notice there is a 1F52 0534 SX Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street arrive 08.35 in P1 with no further work and timed as LH

And the 1P19 0854 SX Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle has no inward working and timed as an 802

I wonder if the 1F52 would be a 802 from Scarborough?

Peter

 

[clagmonster]

TPE Dec 2021
I notice there is a 1F52 0534 SX Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street arrive 08.35 in P1 with no further work and timed as LH

And the 1P19 0854 SX Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle has no inward working and timed as an 802

I wonder if the 1F52 would be a 802 from Scarborough?

Peter

1P19 will surely be the unit off 9M03 from Newcastle, which arrive Lime St 08:02. I imagine there is a working not yet uploaded for the stock off 1F52 - at a guess an empty stock to Longsight.

 

[Peter749]

1P19 will surely be the unit off 9M03 from Newcastle, which arrive Lime St 08:02. I imagine there is a working not yet uploaded for the stock off 1F52 - at a guess an empty stock to Longsight.

That makes more sense as there is an afternoon working, 1E45 1725 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough, with no balance AFAICS

 

[ge-gn]

I’m not sure if this is the correct thread for this post, but can’t find another appropriate one.

I have noticed that the “Norwich in 90” has returned to the GA timetable. I’m sure this used to depart Norwich at 0900 pre-pandemic, but it now departs at a much more commuter friendly time of 0800.

My question is, does anyone know if it will remain at this earlier departure time when the full timetable resumes in December?

Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

I’m not sure if this is the correct thread for this post, but can’t find another appropriate one.

I have noticed that the “Norwich in 90” has returned to the GA timetable. I’m sure this used to depart Norwich at 0900 pre-pandemic, but it now departs at a much more commuter friendly time of 0800.

My question is, does anyone know if it will remain at this earlier departure time when the full timetable resumes in December?

Thank you.

Yes, e.g. see here.

 

[dk1]

I’m not sure if this is the correct thread for this post, but can’t find another appropriate one.

I have noticed that the “Norwich in 90” has returned to the GA timetable. I’m sure this used to depart Norwich at 0900 pre-pandemic, but it now departs at a much more commuter friendly time of 0800.

My question is, does anyone know if it will remain at this earlier departure time when the full timetable resumes in December?

Thank you.

It’s planned to depart at 08:00 The East Anglian & 09:00 The Norfolkman up road but the latter hasn’t started yet with the slightly reduced timetable. Down road it’s 17:00 The East Anglian & 19:00 The Norfolkman with again the later leisure based Ni90 postponed for the time being.

 

[paddy1]

Probably not until May 2022 at the earliest, by the sound of it XC are carrying on with their existing temporary timetable (on their long distance Voyager and HST services) and running longer and fewer trains in these routes.

Fewer but longer trains XC trains works OK. However, some of the hourly XC trains through Stoke on Trent last Sunday were only 5 coaches, which was not so good and resulted in serious overcrowding.

 

[dk1]

Fewer but longer trains XC trains works OK. However, some of the hourly XC trains through Stoke on Trent last Sunday were only 5 coaches, which was not so good and resulted in serious overcrowding.

Trouble with that is through services have been completely lost on the Reading-Newcastle & Bristol-Manchester routes.

 

[Starmill]

Fewer but longer trains XC trains works OK. However, some of the hourly XC trains through Stoke on Trent last Sunday were only 5 coaches, which was not so good and resulted in serious overcrowding.

It depends where you're going. It extends Bristol to Manchester journeys from around three hours to around three hours fifty minutes.

 

[The exile]

Trouble with that is through services have been completely lost on the Reading-Newcastle & Bristol-Manchester routes.

Fewer but longer probably works for longer distance journeys - but doesn’t work over shorter distances where the missing trains leave large gaps which haven’t been plugged by extra local services.

 

[paddy1]

Trouble with that is through services have been completely lost on the Reading-Newcastle & Bristol-Manchester routes.'I was commenting more from a capacity point of view. Because they;

It depends where you're going. It extends Bristol to Manchester journeys from around three hours to around three hours fifty minutes.

I was thinking more from a capacity point of view. I accept the loss of connectivity is not good. However, if they are only running one train an hour instead of two then those fewer trains should be run as doubled up so there is still the same capacity, and not reduced to five coaches and thereby only half the capacity as well as half the frequency, especially on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[dk1]

Fewer but longer probably works for longer distance journeys - but doesn’t work over shorter distances where the missing trains leave large gaps which haven’t been plugged by extra local services.

It does when they serve the same destination but unfortunately that’s not the case with XC. Also as you say, the shorter journeys between intermediate stations are really inconvenient. Not sure why it’s taking this franchise so long to get its act together.

 

[Watershed]

Fewer but longer trains XC trains works OK. However, some of the hourly XC trains through Stoke on Trent last Sunday were only 5 coaches, which was not so good and resulted in serious overcrowding.

I hardly think that it could be called "OK" for flows like Birmingham to Bristol/Sheffield/Oxford/Manchester etc. to go from 2tph to 1tph. They didn't exactly run that frequency pre-Covid just because they felt like it, after all. There was genuine demand and it's the leisure market that has recovered the most, in some cases exceeding pre-Covid levels.

Unfortunately there is no prospect of this improving this year, or indeed next year.

 

[BrianW]

I hardly think that it could be called "OK" for flows like Birmingham to Bristol/Sheffield/Oxford/Manchester etc. to go from 2tph to 1tph. They didn't exactly run that frequency pre-Covid just because they felt like it, after all. There was genuine demand and it's the leisure market that has recovered the most, in some cases exceeding pre-Covid levels.

Unfortunately there is no prospect of this improving this year, or indeed next year.

Why is there no prospect of 'improvement'?

 

[Watershed]

Why is there no prospect of 'improvement'?

Because XC have indicated they intend to continue the current timetable for the foreseeable future.

 

[paddy1]

I hardly think that it could be called "OK" for flows like Birmingham to Bristol/Sheffield/Oxford/Manchester etc. to go from 2tph to 1tph. They didn't exactly run that frequency pre-Covid just because they felt like it, after all. There was genuine demand and it's the leisure market that has recovered the most, in some cases exceeding pre-Covid levels.

Unfortunately there is no prospect of this improving this year, or indeed next year.

A lot of contributors on another XC related thread are of the opinion that fewer but longer trains works well from a capacity point of view, notwithstanding the loss of connectivity. From my observations of 9 or 10 car trains through Stoke and Stafford, though some are very busy, none appeared to be overcrowded, and some are very quiet, whereas when XC were running two trains an hour (pre Covid) with only 4 or 5 cars, this was not the case. What is definitely not 'OK' or acceptable is reducing frequency from two to one train an hour and running them as only 4 or 5 cars only, which happened last Sunday on some XC trains through Stoke. It should be one or the other so that, even with the inconvenience of a change on a through journey via New Street, capacity remains the same and NOT reduced.

 

[BrianW]

Because XC have indicated they intend to continue the current timetable for the foreseeable future.

Thank you Watershed. And why is that? Staff shortages, (covid) absences, reliability of service, low ridership, profit considerations, no contractual obligation, ...?
I'd like to get out more, but ....

 

[Starmill]

Thank you Watershed. And why is that? Staff shortages, (covid) absences, reliability of service, low ridership, profit considerations, no contractual obligation, ...?
I'd like to get out more, but ....

To deploy significantly more staff would be difficult and rather expensive. The Department will not be eager to pay for that given nearly all of the rolling stock is still highly utilised.

 

[Ianno87]

To deploy significantly more staff would be difficult and rather expensive. The Department will not be eager to pay for that given nearly all of the rolling stock is still highly utilised.

And, with Voyagers doubled up on a significant number of services, not far off the same level of total capacity is being provided.

 

[ge-gn]

It’s planned to depart at 08:00 The East Anglian & 09:00 The Norfolkman up road but the latter hasn’t started yet with the slightly reduced timetable. Down road it’s 17:00 The East Anglian & 19:00 The Norfolkman with again the later leisure based Ni90 postponed for the time being.

That’s great, thanks for that.

 

[Jamesrob637]

No Sunday hourly on Manchester to Chester via Altrincham or Manchester to Stoke, as was promised when I were a wee tot? (I'm 35 now!)

 

[Starmill]

No Sunday hourly on Manchester to Chester via Altrincham or Manchester to Stoke, as was promised when I were a wee tot? (I'm 35 now!)

Seems unlikely. I wonder if that will ever be delivered.

 

[mrd269697]

For the size of the towns it serves along route (Northwich nearly 20,000, Knutsford 13,000, Altrincham 52,000) and going between two Cities, the route is incredibly poorly served. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a half hourly service and hourly Sunday service would be well patronised, even if both services ran the whole length of the line. I don’t know if the failure to deliver the promised frequency increase is down to pathing issues at Stockport, lack of funding, lack of available crew or lack of desire. However it needs to be sorted. Even an extra unit shuttling between Greenbank and Stockport would be beneficial.

 

[Llandudno]

For the size of the towns it serves along route (Northwich nearly 20,000, Knutsford 13,000, Altrincham 52,000) and going between two Cities, the route is incredibly poorly served. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a half hourly service and hourly Sunday service would be well patronised, even if both services ran the whole length of the line. I don’t know if the failure to deliver the promised frequency increase is down to pathing issues at Stockport, lack of funding, lack of available crew or lack of desire. However it needs to be sorted. Even an extra unit shuttling between Greenbank and Stockport would be beneficial.

Lack of desire/ineptitude!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Lack of desire/ineptitude!

Lack of traincrew still.

 

[387star]

Seems GWR will continue running the usual two a day on weekdays to Brighton (no enhanced service yet) and just ONE a day on both Saturday and Sunday which seems a bit illogical but there you go

 

[Greybeard33]

For the size of the towns it serves along route (Northwich nearly 20,000, Knutsford 13,000, Altrincham 52,000) and going between two Cities, the route is incredibly poorly served. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a half hourly service and hourly Sunday service would be well patronised, even if both services ran the whole length of the line. I don’t know if the failure to deliver the promised frequency increase is down to pathing issues at Stockport, lack of funding, lack of available crew or lack of desire. However it needs to be sorted. Even an extra unit shuttling between Greenbank and Stockport would be beneficial.

The December timetable does not even restore the half hourly service in the Mon - Fri peaks, which the Mid Cheshire had pre-pandemic.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Seems GWR will continue running the usual two a day on weekdays to Brighton (no enhanced service yet) and just ONE a day on both Saturday and Sunday which seems a bit illogical but there you go

To reduce the continuing burden on Fratton traincrew depot.

 

[J-P_L]

That makes more sense as there is an afternoon working, 1E45 1725 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough, with no balance AFAICS

Will be loco hauled not 802. There are ECS workings which are shown in RTT as below:

1F52 (0534 SCA-LIV) departs as 5H52 (0915 LIV-Longsight).

1E45 (1725 LIV-SCA) forms off 5F45 (1506 Longsight-LIV) arriving at 1653

 

[Kite159]

Seems GWR will continue running the usual two a day on weekdays to Brighton (no enhanced service yet) and just ONE a day on both Saturday and Sunday which seems a bit illogical but there you go

It wouldn't surprise me if the GWR towards Brighton doesn't get dropped altogether at some point, citing that passengers can use the Southern services if they want to travel to Brighton.

(Certainly will please the green party getting rid of dirty diesels from Brighton)