Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Grumpy Git]

I am impressed that you can make conclusive engineering judgements from one photo alone.

Me too, nothing that some T-Cut and elbow grease won't sort.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Is this a track circuit or axle counter area?

Hypothetically, does an automatic signal clear when the track circuit for the section it protects shows as unoccupied or does the next section have to show as occupied too?

 

[JN114]

Thanks to those who posted answers to my question about RTT set allocations - I'd got the impression from something I'd read that it was taken from a "live" database and therefore I'd assumed it to be accurate

It is, -ish… but it’s a fecal matter in, fecal matter out arrangement for unit allocations.

The input into it isn’t necessarily accurate, then there’s the matter of how frequently that feed is refreshed by RTT (I don’t know the answer to that).

 

[Horizon22]

It appears that the RAIB will shortly be taking over the site, if they not already. Their ETA was quite late - understandably given the weather conditions and awkward nature of the locations.

Nobody truly knows what’s happened after day(s) of site investigation and weeks of follow up. Any claims to the contrary are just false.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread has now been tidied to deal with the extensive off-topic and often disrespectful discussions that took place. Contributors are strongly encouraged to review the Forum Rules. Especially those under the heading 'Respectful'. It is disappointing to see that so many members forgot themselves this evening in their contributions.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

The press were very quick to report that the first train had hit something which "knocked out all the signalling in the area". It may be true that some signals had been affected but I don't think that statements of that kind give the travelling public much confidence in the signalling system. As a retired BR signalman and now on a heritage railway most of the public I meet haven't got the faintest idea about signalling as it is, without speculation of that kind.
This incident is, as has been said, a combination of circumstances, the explanation for which it will be interesting to learn.
Thoughts and prayers to the injured including the train crews involved and whoever was signalling that area at the time

 

[norbitonflyer]

I imagined that a Salisbury to WEstbury shuttle could solve a lot of forward travel requirements (to give one example). Similarly a Yeovil Jcn to Pen Mill one.

The accident was east of Salisbury, so there is no reason trains can't still run to Westbury and Yeovil. If buses are needed, it willbe towards Andover/Basingstoke and Romsey/Southampton

 

[Bertiethebobby]

This typical sensationalism from the Daily Fail.

Two trains collide in accident near Salisbury

A senior Network Rail engineer has exclusively told MailOnline that GWR passengers were left as sitting ducks on a partly derailed train for seven minutes before being hit by another intercity train.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"High speed train ploughs into a locomotive" FFS

 

[High Dyke]

For the record:
1F30 - 158762 158763
1L53 - 159102

 

[Ianno87]

This typical sensationalism from the Daily Fail.

Two trains collide in accident near Salisbury

A senior Network Rail engineer has exclusively told MailOnline that GWR passengers were left as sitting ducks on a partly derailed train for seven minutes before being hit by another intercity train.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"High speed train ploughs into a locomotive" FFS

Don't even link to them - they get revenue from the clicks they get.

 

[baza585]

Thoughts to crews, passengers, emergency services and everyone else affected.

GWR now running Cardiff to Salisbury in normal path. Nothing though on SWR. I wonder why?

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Don't even link to them - they get revenue from the clicks they get.

Apologies, I didn't realise that. I'd never touch that rag with a bargepole but I did find the map useful as someone who isn't familiar with the area.

 

[adc82140]

Now that we've had the good news that no one thankfully was seriously hurt, I have some questions about service recovery. Obviously RAIB will take as long as they need at the site, then Network Rail will need to make extensive repairs. This will take some time.

Is there anywhere on SWR's network that can service 159s apart from Salisbury depot? There will be some units "trapped" at the London end, and I presume a few will be needed for a Basingstoke to Andover shuttle.

Does the infrastructure allow for the "Salisbury 6" services to be turned at Dean?

The stations served by GWR South of Salisbury have provision from other operators, so I guess there will be no GWR services here. Is there any provision to get any GWR units back to their home depot?

 

[Parallel]

The stations served by GWR South of Salisbury have provision from other operators, so I guess there will be no GWR services here. Is there any provision to get any GWR units back to their home depot?

JourneyCheck lists GWR are running between Romsey and Portsmouth Harbour calling additionally at Redbridge and Millbrook. SWR are stopping their Southampton to Waterloo trains at Swaythling and Basingstoke.

 

[dosxuk]

The press were very quick to report that the first train had hit something which "knocked out all the signalling in the area". It may be true that some signals had been affected but I don't think that statements of that kind give the travelling public much confidence in the signalling system. As a retired BR signalman and now on a heritage railway most of the public I meet haven't got the faintest idea about signalling as it is, without speculation of that kind

The BBC were quoting a Network Rail spokesperson as saying the signalling had been knocked out. I'm sure I saw it on one of the Network Rail tweets too, but can't find it now. Bit unfair to criticise the press for saying that when that's what they're being told.

A Network Rail spokesperson said: "At around 19:00 GMT this evening, the rear carriage of the 17:08 Great Western Railway service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads derailed after striking an object on its approach to Salisbury station.
"The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area.

Also BBC with a much clearer photo this morning of how the two trains have ended up where they have.

Salisbury train crash: Driver suffers 'life-changing injuries'

Passengers describe being thrown from their seats when two trains collided in Salisbury, Wiltshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[GC class B1]

Don't even link to them - they get revenue from the clicks they get.

I have read the article and it is very concerning that someone who is reported as a Senior Network Rail Engineer has been reported as saying a collision could not have been avoided by the signalling system if the SWR train had been closer. This is clearly not true and potentially raises passenger concern about safety on the railways that are not true. I am appalled at this reporting as it wil be given credibility that it does not deserve.

 

[Class455]

Now that we've had the good news that no one thankfully was seriously hurt, I have some questions about service recovery. Obviously RAIB will take as long as they need at the site, then Network Rail will need to make extensive repairs. This will take some time.

Is there anywhere on SWR's network that can service 159s apart from Salisbury depot? There will be some units "trapped" at the London end, and I presume a few will be needed for a Basingstoke to Andover shuttle.

Does the infrastructure allow for the "Salisbury 6" services to be turned at Dean?

The stations served by GWR South of Salisbury have provision from other operators, so I guess there will be no GWR services here. Is there any provision to get any GWR units back to their home depot?

I think Wimbledon can carry out light maintenance on 159’s. I’ve often seen one there when I go past sometimes.

 

[kev1974]

Don't even link to them - they get revenue from the clicks they get.

Unsavoury rag that they are, this graphic from their story does quite succinctly tell me a lot about what's happened and how the local scene is laid out. Is there anything wrong with the facts presented in this? I haven't seen any of the other news media or this thread present it quite as clearly or at-a-glance as this in terms of how the tracks involved are arranged, how the tunnel is involved, and where the two trains involved were headed, and how they'd both arrived there on different routes, i.e. not truly following each other.




mind you, just noticed it says "derailed trail" on the top right text box

 

[Ianno87]

.

Does the infrastructure allow for the "Salisbury 6" services to be turned at Dean?

No, they have to be turned back at Romsey (arrive Down platform, detrain, reverse to Up Chandlers Ford, reverse to Up Platform, load, depart).

Unsavoury rag that they are, this graphic from their story does quite succinctly tell me a lot about what's happened and how the local scene is laid out. Is there anything wrong with the facts presented in this? I haven't seen any of the other news media or this thread present it quite as clearly or at-a-glance as this in terms of how the tracks involved are arranged, how the tunnel is involved, and where the two trains involved were headed.


View attachment 104979

Although even that has a typo in it: "ploughed into derailed trail" in the right hand box.

 

[reddragon]

Unsavoury rag that they are, this graphic from their story does quite succinctly tell me a lot about what's happened and how the local scene is laid out. Is there anything wrong with the facts presented in this? I haven't seen any of the other news media or this thread present it quite as clearly or at-a-glance as this in terms of how the tracks involved are arranged, how the tunnel is involved, and where the two trains involved were headed, and how they'd both arrived there on different routes, i.e. not truly following each other.


View attachment 104979

mind you, just noticed it says "derailed trail" on the top right text box

The Daily Fail has by far the most pictures and details of the incident as it always does on such incidents. You just have to look elsewhere for the truth!

 

[DanNCL]

Is there anywhere on SWR's network that can service 159s apart from Salisbury depot? There will be some units "trapped" at the London end, and I presume a few will be needed for a Basingstoke to Andover shuttle.

Between Clapham Yard and Wimbledon they can probably manage for a few days. Fratton can also service them, which is probably a better location for the Romsey circular units to run empty to/from than London.

 

[Ianno87]

Between Clapham Yard and Wimbledon they can probably manage for a few days. Fratton can also service them, which is probably a better location for the Romsey circular units to run empty to/from than London.

I can't remember if either of them have fuelling facilities?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Theres a lot for RAIB to unpick here with what happened initially with the GWR service and then how thats related to the SWR service. Given the vintage of the signalling it won't have have all the data recording and monitoring that SSI systems have but ought to have been retrofitted with data loggers on track circuits and the points which will help with data gathering and establishing sequence of events but this could elongate RAIBs site time. The junction is going need a heavy refurbishment and i suspect a full works test of the signalling system will be called for so they will have done well if its operational by Friday.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

The photo of where the trains ended upwould indicate to me that the Waterloo train was going quite fast, it has almost completely entered the tunnel. Maybe it was fortuitous that the derailed train was leaning over so as to give more room inside the tunnel in effect. Or maybe just the kinetic energy of the colliding train had to go somewhere.
Given the forces involved it seems really lucky that there weren't more severe injuries and a testament to the strength and integrity of the stock.

 

[alf]

At the risk of attracting heavy criticism I found the Mail coverage the best so far.
Lots of informative photos (some of which have since been lifted by the BBC). Some obviously wrong information. “Locomotive” instead of unit, but that probably came from emergency services press office.

One thing to consider from this is I hope it puts a stop to the crazy ideas of powering trains with high pressure Hydrogen, a highly explosive gas that floats upwards & because of its tiny molecules, the smallest in nature, penetrates & leaks everywhere.

There were reports of brief flames on the damaged trains.
They wouldn’t have been brief if hydrogen had been involved, the gas being trapped in a tunnel.

If one thing can be learnt from this sad disaster it is that Fisherton must put an end to the daft idea of allowing hydrogen trains on any route with a tunnel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing to consider from this is I hope it puts a stop to the crazy ideas of powering trains with high pressure Hydrogen, a highly explosive gas that floats upwards & because of its tiny molecules penetrates & leaks everywhere.

There were reports of brief flames on the damaged trains. They wouldn’t have been brief if hydrogen had been involved, trapped in a tunnel.

If one thing can be learnt from this sad disaster it is that Fisherton must put an end to the daft idea of allowing hydrogen trains on any route with a tunnel.

This is unhelpful, as a large diesel spill and associated fire would also have been disastrous, whereas it's possible that escaped hydrogen would simply have floated up along the tunnel roof and out, as it mostly did on the Hindenburg (what was burning was mostly the fabric of the airship, even if hydrogen did start it).

This sort of conclusion should not be drawn without proper testing.

What it does say is that electrification is clearly safer as there's nowt to burn, but then equally live 25kV wires would not have been nice either, at least until the breakers popped.

 

[30909]

The BBC were quoting a Network Rail spokesperson as saying the signalling had been knocked out. I'm sure I saw it on one of the Network Rail tweets too, but can't find it now. Bit unfair to criticise the press for saying that when that's what they're being told.




Also BBC with a much clearer photo this morning of how the two trains have ended up where they have.

Salisbury train crash: Driver suffers 'life-changing injuries'

Passengers describe being thrown from their seats when two trains collided in Salisbury, Wiltshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

This picture does indeed clarify the location and attitude of both trains. As a slight aside BBC South TV News throughout this morning are stating that the SWR train was travelling from Portsmouth. I have tweeted that they should check their own National News source!

 

[PTR 444]

I notice that west of Salisbury, SWR are only running between Gillingham and Exeter St David’s. Is there any reason for this considering that the depot is on this side of the blockage?

Also I notice there are no trains through Andover or Chandler’s Ford which I am guessing is due to a shortage of 159s available on the ‘wrong’ side? Saying that though, the line to Westbury is still open so could they not divert ECS via Newbury and Reading?

 

[Ken H]

The AWS will sound a horn (warning) regardless of whether there is power or not. It's just a big magnet.

if the failed signal was not a distant signal, ie able to show a yellow aspect, then it would not have AWS. A Red/green only signal is not generally protected with AWS.

Moderator note: this post contains incorrect information; please see replies below, confirming it is incorrect.

 

[Ytfc117]

At the risk of attracting heavy criticism I found the Mail coverage the best so far.
Lots of informative photos (some of which have since been lifted by the BBC). Some obviously wrong information. “Locomotive” instead of unit, but that probably came from emergency services press office.

One thing to consider from this is I hope it puts a stop to the crazy ideas of powering trains with high pressure Hydrogen, a highly explosive gas that floats upwards & because of its tiny molecules, the smallest in nature, penetrates & leaks everywhere.

There were reports of brief flames on the damaged trains.
They wouldn’t have been brief if hydrogen had been involved, the gas being trapped in a tunnel.

If one thing can be learnt from this sad disaster it is that Fisherton must put an end to the daft idea of allowing hydrogen trains on any route with a tunnel.

Can’t be informative if it’s also largely incorrect.

if the failed signal was not a distant signal, ie able to show a yellow aspect, then it would not have AWS. A Red/green only signal is not generally protected with AWS.

For the record, SY31 is a 3 aspect signal. Interesting to read the above though as they are AWS protected on the routes that I sign