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How much of a general decline in parliamentary standards are we experiencing?

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brad465

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Can we call ourselves a failed state yet?


Allies of a Tory MP who broke standards rules are trying to prevent him from being suspended from Parliament.
Owen Paterson was found to have used his position as an MP to benefit two firms that paid him as a consultant.
He said the probe into his conduct was unfair - and Tory MPs will try later to have his 30-day suspension put on hold while the rules are rewritten.
Labour say it is a "shocking" attempt to scrap the independent anti-sleaze system designed to keep MPs in check.
But Conservative MP and friend of Mr Paterson, Sir Bernard Jenkin, said there were "long-standing problems" with the process and it was not a "fair system".

MPs will vote later on Wednesday on whether to endorse a recommendation from the Commons Standards Committee that Mr Paterson be suspended for 30 sitting days.
A suspension of this length would automatically trigger a recall petition, which could lead to a by-election if 10% of eligible voters in his constituency sign it.
However, Mr Paterson's supporters, led by fellow Tory MP and former Commons leader Andrea Leadsom, will try to overturn the recommendation.
They will try to push an amendment that would instead see a new committee set up to consider changes to the process for investigating MPs.
Sir Bernard - who is a member of the standards committee but stepped back from it while it dealt with his friend's case - told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "[We currently have] a very unsatisfactory process that requires the whole House of Commons, all 650 members, to give a final opinion on whether this case has been handled properly," he added.
"That's a hopeless system and looks terrible. I don't want to be here but there is no alternative."
But Labour's Jess Philips said there was "not a scrap of morality or principle" in the positioning of Tory backbenchers, adding: "It's mates' rates - and by God are they some good rates of pay."
And the party's shadow Commons leader Thangam Debbonaire said: "It is shocking that government ministers are being encouraged to vote for a return to the worst of the 1990s Tory sleaze culture."
It will be up to Commons Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle to decide whether the amendment should be voted on.
Votes to suspend MPs are normally approved without incident, and proposals to amend any sanction are historically rare.
 
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DarloRich

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Can we call ourselves a failed state yet?


These plans to save Paterson stink. Essentially: A workplace disciplinary found him "guilty" of bad conduct and punished him. His mates didn't like that so want to change the rules to exonerate him ( and them in future) and let him beat the charges.

It is Tory sleaze, plain and simple.
 

Typhoon

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Can we call ourselves a failed state yet?

There appear to be too many MPs who think this is one of the most pressing problems facing the country judging by the reports I have seen today. At least this report doesn't mention his wife's death.

I would have thought he would welcome a six week suspension, it would give him time to earn the £100k that Randox pay him per annum without the bother of visiting the chambers at Westminster.

It was good for a Jess Phillips quote though!
 

Senex

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These plans to save Paterson stink. Essentially: A workplace disciplinary found him "guilty" of bad conduct and punished him. His mates didn't like that so want to change the rules to exonerate him ( and them in future) and let him beat the charges.

It is Tory sleaze, plain and simple.
At what point does "sleaze" become "corruption"?
 

Typhoon

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Johnson really did not like a common, gobby, northern bird giving him it with both barrels. It was great to see. Very impressed.
Are you referring to Angela Rayner? Phillips is a common, gobby, Brummie bird. Unfortunately the BBC story (if clicked on) has been updated to include the parliamentary scrap and Phillips' quote omitted:
But Labour's Jess Philips said there was "not a scrap of morality or principle" in the positioning of Tory backbenchers, adding: "It's mates' rates - and by God are they some good rates of pay."
Its good to see a bit of passion. Sounding like they actually care. And I am sure neither woman would quibble with 'common' or 'gobby'. Its the likes of them that makes me wish there were more women in parliament (and then I remember that the PM was sitting next to Liz Truss).
 

Senex

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So the Tories have duly backed the Leadsom amendment, though by a majority of only 18. The SNP speaker towards the end of the debate indicated that his party would be unlikely to take up the place suggested for it on the Leadsom panel. If Labour did the same, would that help to make it clear that this whole business is a Tory stitch-up to protect one of their own, or would they do better to take up their places, argue their case, but be voted down at the end?
 

DarloRich

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So the Tories have duly backed the Leadsom amendment, though by a majority of only 18


It stinks to high heaven. It is bent, it is corrupt, it is Tory. Sleaze is back and this time it is endorsed by the Conservative party. Rules are for the little people.
 

Typhoon

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I would like to thank the 13 Conservatives who defied the whip and voted against the amendment, at least some can hold their heads up high. Needless to say the newly restored Rob Roberts voted for. And, Mr Johnson, if anything should have been a matter of conscience it is this amendment - but you made it a three line whip, shame on you.
 

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And yet the next poll will still report Conservatives 40 (+3) or similar...
 
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Typhoon

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And yet the next poll will still report Conservatives 40 (+3) or similar...
Unfortunately Johnson has worked out that either we* are not interested or think politicians are all the same. Sunak attacks the triple lock on pensions, Tory polls go up. Tax rises to pay for what was written on the side of a 'bus'. Tory polls go up.

People like me keep on posting on this thread 'When will it all go wrong for the Tories/ Johnson?'. So far we haven't found the answer and this is post #423!

* - 'we' being the Great British English voter, not me personally or many who post on this thread!
 

Senex

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And yet the next poll will still report Conservatives 40 (+3) or similar...
But how far is that simply because Labour has been such a lousy and ineffective opposition? Oh for a bit more like Rayner today.
 

brad465

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So the Tories have duly backed the Leadsom amendment, though by a majority of only 18. The SNP speaker towards the end of the debate indicated that his party would be unlikely to take up the place suggested for it on the Leadsom panel. If Labour did the same, would that help to make it clear that this whole business is a Tory stitch-up to protect one of their own, or would they do better to take up their places, argue their case, but be voted down at the end?
Angela Rayner has said they won't be taking part "in this sham process or any corrupt committee", so yes they're joining the SNP in this.

Unfortunately Johnson has worked out that either we* are not interested or think politicians are all the same. Sunak attacks the triple lock on pensions, Tory polls go up. Tax rises to pay for what was written on the side of a 'bus'. Tory polls go up.

People like me keep on posting on this thread 'When will it all go wrong for the Tories/ Johnson?'. So far we haven't found the answer and this is post #423!

* - 'we' being the Great British English voter, not me personally or many who post on this thread!
But how far is that simply because Labour has been such a lousy and ineffective opposition? Oh for a bit more like Rayner today.
Partly these, but also the current Tory crop are brilliant at gaslighting, dead cat throwing and creating "enemies" that support the former two behaviours and a rally around the leader effect that gives a poll boost. It's worth remembering that the NI tax hike led to a significant poll swing that put Labour ahead, but a week later the Tories returned to a lead after a cabinet reshuffle, and constant behaviour surrounding the NI Protocol and French fishermen is also helping stoke enemies and throw dead cats (the French fishing row was a good distraction from sewage dumping). Some of this isn't easy for Labour or any opposition party to counter. They certainly need to try and throw domestic matters into the public eye far more than they are, in the hope more people notice, but going in direct criticism of "attacking an enemy" will not look good and/or be very easy for the Tories to counter.

Just discovered Starmer's latest Guardian article, which if he read it aloud I reckon he'd sound very out of character (in a good way): he blatantly describes this scandal as corruption, also cites foul play surrounding restoring the whip to another Tory MP this week who shouldn't have, and then finishes with some suggestions for cleaning up democracy:


Imagine for a moment that someone senior at your place of work was found to have been getting paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to act on behalf of outside interests. Imagine another person was found to have sexually harassed a junior member of staff.

Now imagine if, rather than slinging them out, their mates at the company decided to exonerate them and shut down the HR department instead. I think we know what we’d call it: sleaze, a cover-up, a company not fit for purpose.

But today that is precisely what the government did. Tory MPs voted to let off one of their own, Owen Paterson, after he was found by the independent standards committee to have broken lobbying rules. Two days earlier, they had allowed Rob Roberts, a Tory MP who was found to have abused his power by committing sexual misconduct, back into their party.

That the Tories are yet again wallowing in sleaze comes as no surprise. From the pathetic attempts to defend Dominic Cummings when he breached lockdown to David Cameron’s rebirth as a super-lobbyist, this government has always chosen to lay down with the dogs. The blase manner in which it acts, the Trump-like attempts to fix the system to its own benefit, the complicity of those who justify and enable it, shows that it is now, inevitably, covered in fleas.

I am sick of people skirting around calling this out for what it is: corruption. Paterson was receiving money from a private company to ask questions on its behalf. Roberts was found to have made repeated and unwanted sexual advances toward a young staffer. Both of them should be gone – neither are fit to serve as MPs. Their continued presence in the Tory party is scandalous. It will further undermine public faith in politics at a time when we should be trying to restore decency and honesty.

But the rot starts at the top. We have a prime minister whose name is synonymous with sleaze, dodgy deals and hypocrisy. This is the man who allows his ministers to breach with impunity the codes that govern public life; who thinks it should be one rule for him and his chums, another for everyone else. With his every action he signals to his MPs: do what you like. There are no consequences.

He will be wrong on that last point, though. Because eventually, politicians who thumb their nose at decent people get found out – and voted out. Last week, the prime minister was pontificating on why the Roman empire collapsed. He notably failed to mention that one of the main factors was that the people grew tired of the arrogance and corruption of their rulers. More than a decade ago, I led the prosecution of MPs over their expenses. I was struck then by the hubris of those who assumed they could never be caught and how quickly it caused public anger to escalate. I am reminded of that again today, as Tory MPs enrich themselves while putting up taxes for working people already facing spiralling energy bills and prices in the shops.

There are a number of simple things that could be done to clean up politics, which I believe would command overwhelming public support. If I were prime minister, I would ban anyone who holds ministerial office from selling themselves to companies that want to write legislation in their own interests. It is an absurd situation that shouldn’t be allowed. You can choose to be a lawmaker or a lobbyist – you can’t be both. I would introduce a truly independent anti-corruption and anti-cronyism commission, to ensure we never again see a situation where Tory MPs gorge their donors on billions of pounds of taxpayer money, as they did during the Covid crisis. And I would improve transparency around public spending and government contracts through a new Office of Value for Money.

But instead of trying to sort things out, we have a government that wants to stitch things up. Its plan is to permanently weaken the structures that hold MPs to high standards. It has appointed its own man to oversee the process – a Tory MP who not long ago was the prime minister’s wife’s boss – and gifted itself a majority on a committee to set the new rules. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious. The Labour party won’t have anything to do with this complete and utter sham process.

What we need now is to restore public faith in our democracy, not cynically exploit it. Because long after this government has gone, we will still be living with the consequences of its flagrant disregard for honesty and accountability in high office. The sooner we get on with cleaning up our politics, the better.
 
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Typhoon

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Just discovered Starmer's latest Guardian article, which if he read it aloud I reckon he'd sound very out of character (in a good way): he blatantly describes this scandal as corruption, also cites foul play surrounding restoring the whip to another Tory MP this week who shouldn't have, and then finishes with some suggestions for cleaning up democracy:

Well. for a start there is emotion there. Carrie will have crossed him off the Christmas card list now but who wants one from the Sultan of Sleaze!

Johnson said that in other professions there is a right of appeal (I have my doubts about whether that is the case in all but nevertheless), but MPs make the law and must be seen to be wholly keeping to it, not getting away with it through technicalities (or, in this case, sympathy). A significant number of members of the current Conservative party don't seem to understand that; some members of other parties, I am afraid, seem to share this opinion.

John Whittingdale - a man whose record is not spotless, and was Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport under Cameron, but only a junior minister in the same department under Johnson until he was sacked in the last reshuffle. So I guess this job is a sort of consolation prize.
 

Luke McDonnell

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I am not that passionate or concerned about the functioning of our democratic process but this has got me worked up enough to send an e-mail to my MP and it looks like a lot of people are angry about this even Tory supporters anecdotally so my question is why cannot this be a catalyst for change? Ultimately in a representative democracy it is the electorate that have the power to kick out governments and parliaments that are not govening in the interests of the population as a whole. Yes I know we have a not perfect first past the post system but ultimately it is up to the people to change there government so my question is if these Tories are supposed to be so bad why are they still consistently ahead in the polls even with all this sleaze. I was quite surprised to find out that in the mid 90s John Major's government was 20 points yes 20 points behind in the polls and even bigger gaps at times so why can't Labour manage leads like that now. Do you think we will get rid of the Tories at the next election and could a progressive alliance be a way of achieving that (i.e. gaming the FPTP system to get an anti Tory majority?). I think that Labour or a hung parliament may be possible but if the Tories still look like winning maybe a progressive alliance may be the answer? Me myself normally votes Labour and by the time of the next election the Tories would have been in government for longer than the Blair-Brown era so surely the other lot either Labour or Labour led coalition should be given a chance and do you think Angela Rayner's performance today could give hope to those that want a change from these Tory administrations we have had for the last decade?
 

nlogax

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But how far is that simply because Labour has been such a lousy and ineffective opposition? Oh for a bit more like Rayner today.

That counts for a great deal but not for everything. There would have been a time when a sitting government would have been a little contrite about failures or rotten eggs in the ranks. Resignations would have occurred, apologies made etc.

Johnson's government has ridden roughshod overuch of that convention. Deny all, front it out, ignore allegations, brazenly flout rules, rinse, repeat. To do anything less would be to lose face to the opposition. Seems to me that rightly or wrongly a large chunk of the electorate either don't care, don't mind or quite like this approach.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Johnson's government has ridden roughshod overuch of that convention. Deny all, front it out, ignore allegations, brazenly flout rules, rinse, repeat. To do anything less would be to lose face to the opposition. Seems to me that rightly or wrongly a large chunk of the electorate either don't care, don't mind or quite like this approach.
That's democracy in action.
 

DarloRich

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Q) How much of a general decline in parliamentary standards are we experiencing?

A) Massive

Even after quite an amount of time, the Ghost of Corbyn Past still walks the streets of democracy.
Give it a rest man. Your boys are bent as chuff and getting worse. How can you even associate with these people? They aren't even Conservatives!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Q) How much of a general decline in parliamentary standards are we experiencing?

A) Massive


Give it a rest man. Your boys are bent as chuff and getting worse. How can you even associate with these people? They aren't even Conservatives!
There used to be a saying that Labour politicians' scandals surrounded money, and Tories involved sex.

However, even in the days of Neil Hamilton's brown envelopes, it never felt like it was a root and branch issue of the Conservative Party. It definitely feels that way now; perhaps it was better hidden. Cameron was enjoying the delights revealed in the Panama Papers but this now seems craven. Paterson is the latest with Jenrick taking donations from developers, and Boris getting donors to pay for flat renovations. It stinks and I hope to god that this begins to cut through the "Boris is funny" dead cat distraction techniques because this is corruption - even 13 Tories knew it
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Knowing of the political proclivity of many contributors on this particular website, so often revealed by threads with a poll at election times, I am pleased to see that our unsullied Socialist supporters of freedom have not let me down with their strident calls of righteousness. Of course, Robert Maxwell had been a Labour Party MP for a number of years, but that did not stop him financially raiding the pension funds of an organisation he once headed.
 

brad465

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Knowing of the political proclivity of many contributors on this particular website, so often revealed by threads with a poll at election times, I am pleased to see that our unsullied Socialist supporters of freedom have not let me down with their strident calls of righteousness. Of course, Robert Maxwell had been a Labour Party MP for a number of years, but that did not stop him financially raiding the pension funds of an organisation he once headed.
Whataboutery at its finest this - if you and the many millions of voters, media backers and fellow politicians spent more time holding one's own to account and demanding improvements and less time saying "yeah things are bad right now, but they'd be worse under an alternative, or were worse in the past", everybody's lives would be better now, including your own.
 

Busaholic

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Take a look at pictures of Sir Alan B'Stard MP (played by the late Rik Mayall) and imagine him a little older and you get Owen Paterson. So prescient!
 
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