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London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction

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Spursglory

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Network SouthEast ran services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction via the Graham Road Curve, North London Line, Primrose Hill and Watford DC Line from 1986 to 1992. What stations did it serve, what were the journey times from each station and the total journey time?
 
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JonathanH

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Network SouthEast ran services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction via the Graham Road Curve, North London Line, Primrose Hill and Watford DC Line from 1986 to 1992. What stations did it serve, what were the journey times from each station and the total journey time?
They didn't run very many towards the end.

1992 timetable says

0752 Watford Junction to Liverpool Street 0902
0906 Liverpool Street to Richmond 0958

1646 Richmond to Liverpool Street 1737
1752 Liverpool Street to Watford Junction 1901

Richmond services were all stations between Dalston Kingsland and Richmond. Watford services called at all stations via and including Primrose Hill. No stops observed on the West Anglia bit.

1989 timetable had

0637 WFJ-LST 0744
0713 WFJ-LST 0818
0729 WFJ-SRA 0835
0749 WFJ-LST 0854
0845 WIJ-LST 0924
1558 WFJ-SRA 1701
1638 WFJ-LST 1738
1711 WFJ-LST 1814

0753 LST-WIJ 0833
0826 LST-WFJ 0930
0847 SRA-WFJ 0955
0901 LST-WFJ 1008
1650 LST-HRW 1741
1713 SRA-WFJ 1819
1749 LST-WFJ 1852
1820 LST-WFJ 1928
1835 LST-WFJ 1940

LST - Liverpool Street, WFJ - Watford Junction, SRA - Stratford, WIJ - Willesden Junction, HRW - Harrow & Wealdstone

Primrose Hill shut when the service finished. Clearly it wasn't good use of capacity at Liverpool Street or the 313 units.
 
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Spursglory

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Is there a copy of the Network southeast timetable that has the services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction and Richmond that I can see?
 

Taunton

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I was working in The City at the time of the start of this service, and on the first morning walked over to Liverpool Street to see it arrive. What a short train the 3-car 313 looked running into platform 1, alongside all the full length others. And just a handful of people on board. It obviously wasn't going to last.

Service start was delayed, I think with some issue with building the Graham Road curve (possibly with its electrical installation bridging between two systems). Closure and demolition of Broad Street was on the project timetable for the Broadgate redevelopment, and when it couldn't be done to plan a temporary single platform station, built almost wholly of timber, was hurridly erected just outside the end of the Broad Street platforms, which of course only lasted a short while.
 

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They didn't run very many towards the end.

And they clearly weren't timed for the demand of a 9am-5pm working day (which would very much have been the norm back then and still is to some extent), very much a deliberate rundown.

If you wanted it to be used you'd want an 0845 ish arrival at Liverpool St (enough walking time to arrive most offices by 9) and a departure about 1720.
 

Horizon22

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If you wanted it to be used you'd want an 0845 ish arrival at Liverpool St (enough walking time to arrive most offices by 9) and a departure about 1720.

The 1989 timetable in post #2 suggests a 0854 arrival at 1749 departure which isn’t too bad.
 

Bletchleyite

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The 1989 timetable in post #2 suggests a 0854 arrival at 1749 departure which isn’t too bad.

It's still not ideal - 0854 is a bit late, and 1749 a bit late too though I suppose would allow for a (very) swift after work pint.

It wouldn't take much of a shift to make LU to Euston then a non-stop to Harrow or Watford quicker.
 

station_road

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In the late 90s, I remember a colleague who travelled from Northampton to Euston saying that Silverlink did some customer surveys and one of the questions was about whether there was demand for some outer surburban services (from Northampton and MK) to run to Liverpool Street instead of Euston. I don't remember seeing any formal proposals for that, but interesting that it was being considered.
 

frodshamfella

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Network SouthEast ran services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction via the Graham Road Curve, North London Line, Primrose Hill and Watford DC Line from 1986 to 1992. What stations did it serve, what were the journey times from each station and the total journey time?

I used it to Primrose Hill a few times
 

2192

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The departure board at Liverpool St couldn't indicate Watford Junc. when I used the service, so you just had the (correct) departure time + a blank, and then close to time a platform number appeared. I boarded and it went where I expected it to. I got off at Willesden Junc.
 

ChiefPlanner

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In the late 90s, I remember a colleague who travelled from Northampton to Euston saying that Silverlink did some customer surveys and one of the questions was about whether there was demand for some outer surburban services (from Northampton and MK) to run to Liverpool Street instead of Euston. I don't remember seeing any formal proposals for that, but interesting that it was being considered.

Yes - it was considered - a lot of coffee was consumed in trying to look at the possibilities of running some fast A/C services into Liverpool St from the Northampton line.

Dismissed as not only too operationally awkward , but breaking the very well established flow into Euston (absolute core business) , as well as commercial implications.

As is right and proper , an idea worth examining , as well as options for alternative routes etc into the Midlands and beyond.
 

30907

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Yes - it was considered - a lot of coffee was consumed in trying to look at the possibilities of running some fast A/C services into Liverpool St from the Northampton line.

Dismissed as not only too operationally awkward , but breaking the very well established flow into Euston (absolute core business) , as well as commercial implications.

As is right and proper , an idea worth examining , as well as options for alternative routes etc into the Midlands and beyond.
I thought at the time that it had greater potential than the DC lines (though TBH that reflects how little potential they had back then!)
 

Ken H

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i went out of my way to use this. with a Nuneaton-london termini return, instead of going to Euston, I went to Liverpool St, went all the way to Watford Jct, then an inter city to Nuneaton. It stopped lots! and all the 313 doors opened every stop. (Not as much as a Rugby - Manchester stopper I used. Stopped all Trent valley stations to Stafford, then all stations via Stoke to Stockport. Then fast to Piccadilly. in a 304.)
 

ChiefPlanner

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I thought at the time that it had greater potential than the DC lines (though TBH that reflects how little potential they had back then!)

As one of my older drivers said "the AC electrification did for the DC lines" - that and population dynamics - a lot of people attracted to the 1930's suburbs retired over time and stopped commuting. The absolute rock bottom was the all day 30 min service - happily restored to 20 mins in 1996. The line - which even in bad times , carried more people than Scotrail's prime Edinburgh to Glasgow service (source Chris Green) - needed some TLC and a focus on operations , cleaning etc which I gladly gave it.

Very soft spot for it. Now every 15 mins - not quite the heyday of say the 1950's ......but better.
 

GS250

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As one of my older drivers said "the AC electrification did for the DC lines" - that and population dynamics - a lot of people attracted to the 1930's suburbs retired over time and stopped commuting. The absolute rock bottom was the all day 30 min service - happily restored to 20 mins in 1996. The line - which even in bad times , carried more people than Scotrail's prime Edinburgh to Glasgow service (source Chris Green) - needed some TLC and a focus on operations , cleaning etc which I gladly gave it.

Very soft spot for it. Now every 15 mins - not quite the heyday of say the 1950's ......but better.

Harrow and Wealdstone is my local station so I've always had an interest in service patterns there. Yes that 30 min DC lines service pattern was the low point. I can't remember exactly what brought it on either. I recall a handful of Northampton Line' trains stopping at Bushey, Wembley Central and Queens Park although I think this may have been peak hours only. Don't think they were trying to 'compete' with the DC services. Previous to this I think Bushey, Wembley and Queens Pk all got one train per day (separately) in the peak hours. Parliamentary type reasons?

Out of interest can you recall the service pattern in the 50s and 60s? Did the DC line services run through to Broad St all day? Pretty sure in the 70s they were peak hours only.

Glad the present service is 4tph. These trains are always fairly well patronised too.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Harrow and Wealdstone is my local station so I've always had an interest in service patterns there. Yes that 30 min DC lines service pattern was the low point. I can't remember exactly what brought it on either. I recall a handful of Northampton Line' trains stopping at Bushey, Wembley Central and Queens Park although I think this may have been peak hours only. Don't think they were trying to 'compete' with the DC services. Previous to this I think Bushey, Wembley and Queens Pk all got one train per day (separately) in the peak hours. Parliamentary type reasons?

Out of interest can you recall the service pattern in the 50s and 60s? Did the DC line services run through to Broad St all day? Pretty sure in the 70s they were peak hours only.

Glad the present service is 4tph. These trains are always fairly well patronised too.

Not that old ! - but the DC lines were never very much in favour. North London Railways cut the DC to 30 mins ,, but put in a half hourly MK or Watford Junction starter calling at Bushey / Harrow/ Wembley C and Queens P It did not thrive. (and was soon replaced in 1996 with a better offer, with clean trains !)

Bushey had basically a 3 tpd am and pm peaks for a long time , but yours truly made it a 30 min service all day , and that did thrive - to the extent of over a 1000 extra journeys all day. In passing we considered connections at Harrow off the AC to the DC ,and made some minor tweaks that made a better connection for passengers from London wanting to make journeys north of Harrow towards Bushey without making that schlep on the DC , - that and provding a decent service north of Harrow towards MK for the Kings Langley , Apsleys and Hemels etc of this world. Terribly old fashioned , but called being customer orientated.

I think the Broad St (a source of interest to many people) - was run down over the years as other things happened structurally - jobs / population and so on....
 

Bertone

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Shame that Hatch End platforms (non -DC) were closed / demolished in 1963.
As a lad living in the local area and commuting to Euston, subsequently put another 15 -20 on my journey each way having to change at Harrow and Wealdstone!
 
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StephenHunter

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Broad Street was damaged in the war and never fully repaired, IIRC.

As for the Watford DC lines, the Bakerloo Line is also a major competitor of theirs. The 1972 stock must have looked great compared with the 501s.
 

GS250

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Broad Street was damaged in the war and never fully repaired, IIRC.

As for the Watford DC lines, the Bakerloo Line is also a major competitor of theirs. The 1972 stock must have looked great compared with the 501s.
I believe the Bakerloo line trains used to run as far as Watford Junction too? Seem to recall the 'fourth' rail running all the way there at one point. From memory I believe the Bakerloo line services were curtailed at Queen's Park for a year or so before being restored to Harrow and Wealdstone.

The removal of the twin sidings at Harrow and Wealdstone was always a contentious issue too. I do recall 501 units using this facility as well as Bakerloo line trains. The present single siding still causes capacity problems to this day.
 
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THC

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I believe the Bakerloo line trains used to run as far as Watford Junction too? Seem to recall the 'fourth' rail running all the way there at one point. From memory I believe the Bakerloo line services were curtailed at Queen's Park for a year or so before being restored to Harrow and Wealdstone.

The removal of the twin sidings at Harrow and Wealdstone was always a contentious issue too. I do recall 501 units using this facility as well as Bakerloo line trains. The present single siding still causes capacity problems to this day.
Correct, until September 1982, although services were down to 4tpd weekdays by then I think. Bakerloo services thereafter ran no further north than Stonebridge Park (that being the site of the depot) before being extended back north to H&W in May 1984.

THC
 

Ken H

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Correct, until September 1982, although services were down to 4tpd weekdays by then I think. Bakerloo services thereafter ran no further north than Stonebridge Park (that being the site of the depot) before being extended back north to H&W in May 1984.

THC
They were called the 'New' lines and were a LUL/LNWR joint venture. I think they were electrified from the outset.
Special underground stock was built by the 2 railways known as Watford Joint Stock.
 

Magdalia

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The 1974 PTT (the first all line) shows off peak every 15 minutes Euston-Watford Junction and every 20 minutes Broad Street-Richmond. The Broad Street-Watford Junction trains only ran in the peak. The timetable also shows 4 Bakerloo trains in each peak going through from/to Watford Junction. It is not clear whether any other Bakerloo trains ran beyond Stonebridge Park to Harrow and Wealdstone.

And I'm not sure that the BR class 501s ever overlapped with 1972 tube stock. The latter was cascaded to the Bakerloo from the Piccadilly, replacing the 1938 stock, but I can't put a date to that.
 

jfollows

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Out of interest can you recall the service pattern in the 50s and 60s? Did the DC line services run through to Broad St all day? Pretty sure in the 70s they were peak hours only.
Here are up morning timetables from 1956 and 1964: there were occasional trains from further than Watford to Broad Street and a regular service from Watford in both timetables.
 

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30907

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It's still not ideal - 0854 is a bit late, and 1749 a bit late too though I suppose would allow for a (very) swift after work pint.

It wouldn't take much of a shift to make LU to Euston then a non-stop to Harrow or Watford quicker.
I suspect a pathing issue at LST requiring one or two trains to run to Stratford instead.
 

GS250

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Cheers.
And I'm not sure that the BR class 501s ever overlapped with 1972 tube stock. The latter was cascaded to the Bakerloo from the Piccadilly, replacing the 1938 stock, but I can't put a date to that.

Good question.

I went to school close by to the WCML between Harrow & Wealdstone and Kenton. Can remember quite a lot regarding the activity on the line. Probably when I should have been concentrating on the lessons of course! the glory being in the 3rd year (age 11) when I had a second floor classroom that gave a more or less unrestricted view of the WCML. I clearly remember the red 1938 stock that ran on the route. And also...the period when it stopped for a couple of years. It's return was a pleasant surprise. Pretty sure it was the red 1938's as it stood out (stand to be corrected). However....didn't the 1972 stock come from the Jubilee line? Which I believe was cascaded in 1984/85 by the short lived '84 stock?

As for whether the 501's operated with the '72s is beyond my memory though.

Out of interest how do/did the 501's, 313s and present units operate on both 3rd and 4th rail? Isn't the 4th rail system a split power supply system? something like -300 and +350?
 

jfollows

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Out of interest how do/did the 501's, 313s and present units operate on both 3rd and 4th rail? Isn't the 4th rail system a split power supply system? something like -300 and +350?
Maybe too simplistically stated, but essentially run the fourth rail at earth potential on the shared sections so that the potential difference for LU stock remains the same as in normal operation (650v in your example). The other stock has nothing to do with the fourth rail and so is unaffected.
(I think LU is +420 and -210 but the principle is unchanged.) I found http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/tractioncurr.htm

The only real consideration which remains is that the potential difference needs to be a compromise that's not too high for the LU stock and not too low for the third-rail stock. It seems that 650v or 660v is used, which is now lower than the nominal voltage used on most third-rail-only lines.

Note that the 501s originally used the fourth rail system used by the Underground, but were converted to third-rail-only in 1970.

EDIT From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain
In 1970, the North London DC lines and the Class 501 EMUs used on these services were converted for third-rail operation, with the fourth rail generally being removed on sections not used by London Underground (LUL). Some fourth rail was retained in the Gunnersbury and Queens Park areas for emergency use by LUL. With the closure of Broad Street, the North London line was joined with the Stratford to North Woolwich line; this was electrified with third rail and overhead line as far as Stratford, third rail to North Woolwich. Two branches of the Watford DC line have been closed: to Rickmansworth in 1952 (to passengers, to goods in 1967) and to Croxley Green in 1996.

The Watford DC line between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone and the North London Line between Richmond and Gunnersbury are used by London Overground trains designed for 750 V third rail and Bakerloo line trains designed for 630 V third and fourth rail. As a compromise, the nominal line voltage is 650 V, and since 1970 the centre rail has been bonded to the return running rail.[34] There are no special provisions required at Queens Park, where the two dissimilar systems meet, just a gap longer than one coach of a Bakerloo linetrain at the entry to (and exit from) the Bakerloo, which operates with a nominal -210 V on the fourth rail and +420 V on the third rail. There is no bridging of the incompatible systems as trains pass from one to the other since, like all UK electric trains intended to run extensively in tunnels, there is no continuity of traction power circuits between vehicles of the train.
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_DC_line:
The original electrification was on a fourth rail system, similar to that now used by London Underground, which allowed LER trains to use the new line. Power was supplied from the railway's own power station at Stonebridge Park until the 1960s when it was closed, after which it has been obtained from public supplies. As originally installed, there was provision for interconnection of the high voltage section of the power station to adjacent public supplies for output or intake but this ceased when national supplies were standardised at 50 Hz.

In the late 1950s, the original electric multiple units built for the line were replaced by new Class 501 rolling stock. These were in turn displaced in the mid 1980s by Class 313 units. The line is now operated by London Overground Class 710 "Aventra" units.

In the 1970s, the track and the rolling stock used on this line and the North London Line were changed to use a modified version of the BR standard third rail system, with the fourth rail (now bonded to the running rail used for returning traction current) left in place on the sections of line shared with LU Bakerloo line trains. North of Harrow & Wealdstone, now the limit of LU operation, the fourth rail has in most places been dropped onto the sleepers and remains bonded, thus leaving the resistance of the current return path unaltered. The fourth rail remains in the normal position from Queens Park to Kilburn High Road up platform, where a trailing crossover between those two stations is maintained in use to allow reversal of Bakerloo line trains unable to gain access to London Underground at Queens Park, due to planned work or other reasons. The line is currently electrified (like all shared lines) using the standard compromise voltage of 660 V DC. This falls comfortably within the lower permanent voltage limit for the Class 378 "Capitalstar" stock (500 V) and the upper permanent voltage limit for the 1972 tube stock (760 V).[2] The line has now been converted to 750 V DC for the new Class 710 "Aventra".

Similar considerations apply for the far end of the Wimbledon branch which shares use with third-rail units, primarily but not exclusively empty stock workings (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-01-11/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt). And the Richmond branch also from Gunnersbury.
 
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