Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

[21C101]

Darwin Award winner?

No, Goebells award winner for ficticious propaganda.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That’s a false comparison, almost everyone here has been vaccinated, and yet I still can’t go skiing.

What was it? 15million jabs to freedom? Well we’re 100million in now, and still the sword of Damocles is above our head.

This. People are now not getting vaccines despite them being positive because they feel lied to. The government partied, so people believe it wasn’t that deadly; and now they’re not holding their nerve at a fundamentally milder variant despite big vaccine cover and massively low death numbers. This is a nonsense.

Roll on a Lib Dem win in North Shropshire!

 

[Eyersey468]

Announced as in a caller to LBC who wouldn't give his name claiming it was his antivaxxer father who died of it despite refusing to go out for the last 18 months (the only antivaxxer and fake virus conspiracist I know of who self quarantined).

I'm not sure whether he then claimed to be a Nigerian Prince who needed £5,000 to get probate to release his fathers multimillion pound will but it wouldn't surprise me.


Correction, what kicked off the vaccine scepticism was that, after Wakefields raised concerns about the triple jab, the UK and other governments responded by refusing to make the single jab option available for those who wanted it, giving anyone dissenting a hard time and Blair refusing to say if his son had had it is what started the modern trend, and finally the manufacturers being pressurised to withdraw the single mumps vaccine.

Personally I paid for the singles privately for my brood at no insignificant cost as I saw no point in taking unnecessary risks (also a lot of evidence that you get better immunity from the singles spaced six weeks apart than all three dumped in together in a single jab).

The streak of fascist we-know-best-and-you-will-do-as-you-are-told authoritarianism in the health establiahment was revealed during the Wakefield fiasco long before Covid.

I know this is going off topic, but was there a genuine concern about the MMR jab or was it just crackpot making stuff up?

 

[Cdd89]

increasing amount of vaccine scepticism and encourage folk to get their boosters.

Vaccine skepticism doesn’t emerge for its own sake. It is in response to (often inaccurately!) perceived inconsistencies in the narrative around Covid.

Messaging like heightening the personal sense of risk, overselling face covering efficacy, overrepresenting younger hospitalisations or long Covid, and worst-case predictions to achieve short term compliance do so at the expensive of vaccine confidence.

All of these things can be credibly countered by convincing data, and that makes such sources trusted in delivering less convincing data which presents Covid as a non-threat and vaccines as useless or damaging.

If we had limited restrictions to the minimum contexts and time periods necessary, I don’t think there would be half as many anti-vaxxers. Where would they have derived the impetus to buy into the alternative media? But unfortunately we just keep digging, now by refusing to acknowledge the possibility that Omicron may be less severe (whether inherently or contextually) despite increasingly strong evidence that this may be the case.

 

[Bantamzen]

Precisely. This part of the forum has been dominated by people telling each other what they want to hear. There has been no debate, but rather a lot of myth being peddled.

I think you'll find there has been a lot of debate based on what experts have been saying, and not just experts advising the government & media. Strangely enough there is no singular opinion in the scientific community. Take a bit of time out and actually go through those various threads and follow the links often provided instead of doing what you accuse others of, i.e. providing no debate.

I've stayed away from this end of the forum for a good while because it had become just that. I've decided to get involved again largely to try and counter the increasing amount of vaccine scepticism and encourage folk to get their boosters.

What you are observing is not vaccine scepticism so much as growing scepticism about the current booster necessity. Does the whole population really need a booster every 3 months until politicians (the ones making the decisions) decide its safe to crawl out from behind the sofa? We all (or should) know that antibody production does not last long beyond an infection clearing, and we should all also recognise that this almost certainly "vaccine waning" that the media & politicians are crapping themselves about is actually exactly this happening. Furthermore we should also know that antibodies are not the only immune system fruit, and that most people with a healthy immune system will have handy memory B & T cells on standby to jump in if / when the virus reappears. So in all likelihood all that boosters are doing is restarting antibody production for a few weeks to "save the NHS". That's not to say boosters don't have their place, for the vulnerable whose immune systems are incapable of reacting quickly enough they are vital. But for the rest, well its simply a waste of money. NHS money that could and should be repurposed to deal with the 5.5 million people on the waiting list, many of whom might die because they've had the door slammed in their faces, again.

And if all that does at least make you stop and think, remember both Pfizer & Moderna raised their vaccine prices by around a third in the summer, right around the time boosters started to be talked about. Hmmmmmm......

 

[brad465]

I'll have to Google that as I am not familiar with that scandal

The scandal which linked having the MMR jab to autism.

 

[21C101]

I know this is going off topic, but was there a genuine concern about the MMR jab or was it just crackpot making stuff up?

That is a very long thread of its own. Wakefield raised concerns of a link between autism and MMR after getting involved with numerous parents who watched their children develop autistic symptons after it.

Officially it has been debunked and he was struck off but, lets say there are those who think the medical establishment stiched him up to protect themselves from a compensation tidal wave.

I have an open mind but with autism in the family I was damned if I was going to take the risk with the single vaccines available privately.

The demonisation by the state and medical establishment went to the extent of denoucing those getting private single vaccines for their kids as child abusers because giving them the pain of 6 injections instead of 2 was apparently child abuse. (ironic in the current situation).

 

[Yew]

Yeah, it’s absolute madness some of the comments on RailUK on this issue. I see that since you’ve posted that comment, a number of defensive comments has come your way, taking umbridge with what you have said.

How dare people defend their views, it’s completely unacceptable…

 

[Freightmaster]

No they don’t. If you are going to constantly push your anti-vax agenda at least try to stick to a kernel of the truth. Certainly in my area GPs have absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine and the GP surgery has a message on their telephone answering system telling people who want to book the vaccine to go away, stop bothering them and book it through the correct channels, i.e. the NHS booking system.

...and yet:

My doctor’s surgery is closed now. Vaccinations only. Call 111, and wait in A&E for an out of hours GP appointment.

Surely people like 'Bertie the Bus' must agree that denying access to local GP services to the public for several
weeks in the middle of Winter is a scandalously bad idea?





MARK

 

[quantinghome]

Vaccine skepticism doesn’t emerge for its own sake. It is in response to (often inaccurately!) perceived inconsistencies in the narrative around Covid.

Messaging like heightening the personal sense of risk, overselling face covering efficacy, overrepresenting younger hospitalisations or long Covid, and worst-case predictions to achieve short term compliance do so at the expensive of vaccine confidence.

All of these things can be credibly countered by convincing data, and that makes such sources trusted in delivering less convincing data which presents Covid as a non-threat and vaccines as useless or damaging.

If we had limited restrictions to the minimum contexts and time periods necessary, I don’t think there would be half as many anti-vaxxers. Where would they have derived the impetus to buy into the alternative media? But unfortunately we just keep digging, now by refusing to acknowledge the possibility that Omicron may be less severe (whether inherently or contextually) despite increasingly strong evidence that this may be the case.

Vaccine skepticism has been an issue since vaccines were first developed. It's got a very long history. Naturally anti-vaxxers will use inconsistencies in the government's approach to Covid to further their conspiracy theory.

 

[DustyBin]

I've stayed away from this end of the forum for a good while because it had become just that. I've decided to get involved again largely to try and counter the increasing amount of vaccine scepticism and encourage folk to get their boosters.

Whilst I disagree with you on most things covid related I do think you post in good faith and that you genuinely think you’re doing the right thing. I don’t think you’re a sheep, or stupid, for simply following the official guidance as that’s what we tend to do. What underpins our difference in opinion is that I don’t fully trust the official guidance whereas you do.

In regard to vaccine scepticism, I’ve seen or heard nothing to suggest that this virus poses a threat to me beyond that posed by say flu (I’m not going into statistics but it’s minimal). Furthermore it seems highly improbable at this point, especially given my fairly “casual” attitude to mitigation measures, that I haven’t been exposed to the virus by now. If I have I’ve remained completely asymptomatic, and therefore my immune system has done its job exactly as I would expect it to given my age and general health. I honestly can’t find any compelling reason to get vaccinated, for me personally I think it’s pointless. I’m more than happy for others to do as they please, and I refuse to fall into the government’s divide and conquer trap. The only people inflicting this misery on us are them, the same as it’s always been.

There is also a genuine concern, which I choose to take seriously, around original antigenic sin as @MikeWM has highlighted. Our vaccine strategy may well exasperate the problem (if there is one). A separate but related issue is that of ADE which I consider the worst possible outcome, and which we can only hope doesn’t materialise. I’m not at all convinced however that the risk is fully understood, and I take no comfort from the fact that vaccine escape (another separate but not entirely unrelated issue) is widely accepted to be occurring already. How can anybody make an informed decision when this kind of thing isn’t even being discussed? As far as I’m concerned, if you’re not in one of the more vulnerable categories or demographics it’s perfectly reasonable to decline the vaccine, for now at least.

 

[Eyersey468]

The scandal which linked having the MMR jab to autism.

That is a very long thread of its own. Wakefield raised concerns of a link between autism and MMR after getting involved with numerous parents who watched their children develop autistic symptons after it.

Officially it has been debunked and he was struck off but, lets say there are those who think the medical establishment stiched him up to protect themselves from a compensation tidal wave.

I have an open mind but with autism in the family I was damned if I was going to take the risk with the single vaccines available privately.

The demonisation by the state and medical establishment went to the extent of denoucing those getting private single vaccines for their kids as child abusers because giving them the pain of 6 injections instead of 2 was apparently child abuse. (ironic in the current situation).

Thank you for the explanations. Sorry for the thread drift mods.

 

[21C101]

What you are observing is not vaccine scepticism so much as growing scepticism about the current booster necessity.

You are wasting your breath. Remember that they are the learned experts and it is your duty to tug your forelock and say Yes Sir to whatever they suggest.

Anyone who demurs is to be smeared as in league with Mr Icke.

Funny thing is that until penicillin was invented and they were actually able to administer medicines that worked they were mostly treated with much the same suspicion as estate agents. Quacks on the make.

As the old saying goes "An apple a day keeps the Doctor away - but only if well aimed"

 

[brad465]

Whitty seems a bit more positive today in saying that Omicron should peak fast due to boosters (and I imagine also because it'll run out hosts before long):

Covid: Cases hit new record as booster drive continues

Omicron could peak fast but subside sooner than past strains, England's chief medical officer says.

www.bbc.co.uk

A record number of daily coronavirus cases have been reported across the UK for the second day running, with 88,376 infections confirmed on Thursday.
England's chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty, said the Omicron variant could rise "incredibly fast", but its peak subside quickly due to boosters.
There was also a record for top-up vaccines with 745,183 third or booster doses being given on Wednesday.
Boris Johnson has urged people to use "caution" in the face of the variant.
But the prime minister insisted England was not being put into lockdown by stealth, after some of his own MPs had accused the government of putting hospitality under an "effective lockdown".
Meanwhile, the Queen has cancelled her traditional pre-Christmas lunch as a precautionary measure amid the surge of the Omicron variant.
A further 146 deaths within 28 days of a positive test were reported on Thursday.
Daily cases were up from 78,610 on Wednesday, itself a record, and more than 30,000 up on last Thursday when 50,867 infections were reported.

Prof Whitty said the height of the Omicron wave may fall faster than previous Covid-19 peaks, although he said the upswing will be "incredibly fast".
But he added that this was just a possibility and said the rate would slow down once people people had immunity either from boosters or Omicron infection.
Speaking to the Commons Health and Social Care Committee, he said that even with people acting cautiously the rise in Omicron cases would still be "very fast".
But the booster programme was the route back to a "more normal track", Prof Whitty said.
He also said it is likely that vaccines and antiviral drugs will do "almost all of the heavy lifting" when it comes to tackling future Covid variants.
Prof Whitty said "each six months will be better than the last six months" when it comes to fighting Covid.
UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) chief medical adviser Dr Susan Hopkins told MPs that there were now 15 people in hospital with the Omicron variant, but Prof Whitty said the "real number" will be "much bigger than that".
While the reproduction value - rate at which a virus spreads - for Covid overall was 1-1.2, Dr Hopkins said, she estimated the Omicron R value was between 3 and 5.
The UKHSA said there were an additional 1,691 confirmed Omicron cases on Thursday, taking to the total number confirmed in the UK to 11,708. The true figure is likely to be higher.
It comes as France has tightened its Covid restrictions for travellers arriving from the UK in response to rising case numbers.
From Saturday most travellers who are not French residents or citizens must give a "compelling reason" for their journey.

 

[DustyBin]

Vaccine skepticism has been an issue since vaccines were first developed. It's got a very long history. Naturally anti-vaxxers will use inconsistencies in the government's approach to Covid to further their conspiracy theory.

We need to differentiate between anti-vaxxers and those who have simply chosen to decline this particular vaccine.

Some people don’t eat certain meats, that doesn’t make them vegetarians.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Whitty seems a bit more positive today in saying that Omicron should peak fast due to boosters (and I imagine also because it'll run out hosts before long):

Covid: Cases hit new record as booster drive continues

Omicron could peak fast but subside sooner than past strains, England's chief medical officer says.

www.bbc.co.uk

He can be relaxed and positive now.

Him and his kind have successfully caused lockdown by stealth with no consequences to themselves and so they know they have staved off Christmas. But they’ll be back in January. Without question.

It’s times like this I do wonder if it’s even right to denigrate people anymore who believe in conspiracies because sometimes they call it right!

It’s like how they said Christmas would be “Yes, yes, yes” and everyone would spend all their money, and then they pull the rug. By then the evil twonks in charge have got all their VAT, all the toy shops and such have kept their staff paid, and they didn’t need furlough. It’s so transparent.

 

[BRX]

I've stayed away from this end of the forum for a good while because it had become just that. I've decided to get involved again largely to try and counter the increasing amount of vaccine scepticism and encourage folk to get their boosters.

Same here; I mostly only come to these forum for railway related stuff and stay away from other discussions but when I looked (for the first time a week or so back) at what was being written on this thread, seemingly unchallenged, I was quite taken aback.

There are other places online I get into arguments about Covid related stuff, and sometimes there I am the one annoying people by sometimes suggesting they are over-reacting, or that things aren't quite as bad as being made out.

The conversation here is like a parallel universe.

The most worrying thing is the level of confidence some people seem to have in their predictions about what's going to happen in a pandemic that's been notoriously difficult to call right all the way through. No-one should be claiming there's any certainty about what will play out in the next few weeks.

 

[quantinghome]

Wakefield raised concerns of a link between autism and MMR after getting involved with numerous parents who watched their children develop autistic symptons after it.

I'm surprised to see you present the fraud he perpetrated in such a way. He actively sought out cases which might imply a connection, AFTER being approached (and then hired at a rate of £150 an hour) by a lawyer seeking to start a class action lawsuit.

The extent of the dishonesty and fraud associated with the case can be seen here: How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed | The BMJ

A brief summary:

How the link was fixed​

The Lancet paper was a case series of 12 child patients; it reported a proposed “new syndrome” of enterocolitis and regressive autism and associated this with MMR as an “apparent precipitating event.” But in fact:

• Three of nine children reported with regressive autism did not have autism diagnosed at all. Only one child clearly had regressive autism
• Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal,” five had documented pre-existing developmental concerns
• Some children were reported to have experienced first behavioural symptoms within days of MMR, but the records documented these as starting some months after vaccination
• In nine cases, unremarkable colonic histopathology results—noting no or minimal fluctuations in inflammatory cell populations—were changed after a medical school “research review” to “non-specific colitis”
• The parents of eight children were reported as blaming MMR, but 11 families made this allegation at the hospital. The exclusion of three allegations—all giving times to onset of problems in months—helped to create the appearance of a 14 day temporal link
• Patients were recruited through anti-MMR campaigners, and the study was commissioned and funded for planned litigation

 

[4-SUB 4732]

We need to differentiate between anti-vaxxers and those who have simply chosen to decline this particular vaccine.

Some people don’t eat certain meats, that doesn’t make them vegetarians.

Indeed. And if someone says “I am not taking this because I don’t think it’s had enough testing to suit my own judgements yet” that’s fine. I’m happy with anyone to not have it.

The unvaccinated are not the problem. The NHS being absolutely hopeless (as much as I love it) is. And that’s the Gov’s problem. This is all about attempting to deflect their failure into unvaccinated people.

 

[21C101]

I'm surprised to see you present the fraud he perpetrated in such a way. He actively sought out cases which might imply a connection, AFTER being approached (and then hired at a rate of £150 an hour) by a lawyer seeking to start a class action lawsuit.

The extent of the dishonesty and fraud associated with the case can be seen here: How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed | The BMJ

There are two sides to every story.

As to fraud. I am unaware of him being charged, let alone convicted with fraud.

It always worries me when people claim open and shut cases and that they are on the correct side.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I am struggling to understand what is so challenging and difficult about getting a simple vaccination?

Now isnt the time to throw toys out the pram because xyz was said last year by abc.

It only takes an hour and a small bit of pain. I would rather face that than face other restrictions.

As for costs, it is far better value than other measures and as for concerns for what is in it, I dont think people even look at the ingredients in a lovely pint of local ale!

Because the two vaccines were miss sold as being our exit out of this mess and that clearly isn’t the case, when will it end? After the 7th booster, it’s utterly ridiculous

 

[BRX]

By the way for those who have been saying that the infections are all mostly in the under-60s and therefore no bother, here is the heat map for my borough in south London where cases are rising very fast now. Note the diagonal edge of blue pointing upwards at top right- cases are spreading into older age groups just as you would expect when they are widespread (and there are those brave folks standing up for freedom and going maskless into the shops and buses which many elderly people have no choice but to use, especially in urban areas). And it's those older age groups where having a booster has been shown to have the most obvious benefit.

 

[bramling]

By the way for those who have been saying that the infections are all mostly in the under-60s and therefore no bother, here is the heat map for my borough in south London where cases are rising very fast now. Note the diagonal edge of blue pointing upwards at top right- cases are spreading into older age groups just as you would expect when they are widespread (and there are those brave folks standing up for freedom and going maskless into the shops and buses which many elderly people have no choice but to use, especially in urban areas). And it's those older age groups where having a booster has been shown to have the most obvious benefit.

View attachment 107119

If we are worried about older people using shops, surely the best solution to that is to be handing out FFP3 masks? Or, to put it another way, a measure which might actually have some effect beyond acting as a comfort blanket.

 

[21C101]

By the way for those who have been saying that the infections are all mostly in the under-60s and therefore no bother, here is the heat map for my borough in south London where cases are rising very fast now. Note the diagonal edge of blue pointing upwards at top right- cases are spreading into older age groups just as you would expect when they are widespread (and there are those brave folks standing up for freedom and going maskless into the shops and buses which many elderly people have no choice but to use, especially in urban areas). And it's those older age groups where having a booster has been shown to have the most obvious benefit.

View attachment 107119

Its also the older age groups where something that gives others a cold will kill them, just as with the common cold and flu.

Most of the debate revolves around younger people and children who are least likely to get anything more than mild symptoms and, due to their youth, are at most risk from any as yet unknown long term side effects.

While speculation of RNA vaccines causing long term autoimmune conditions is just that, I wouldn't condemn anyone young and healthy who declines a vaccine on grounds of novelty and long term risk of complications.

[It is funny how selective they are with the precautionary principle. The current "lockdown lite" measures are being implemented on the precautionary principle in case Omnicron is not mild in effect. No delaying RNA vaccines beyond limited trials for a 5-10 year period in case long term effects emerge]

Maybe if the authorities treated people with a bit more respect instead of browbeating they would not incite such opposition?

 

[quantinghome]

As to fraud. I am unaware of him being charged, let alone convicted with fraud.

Read the report I linked to. It's a perfectly accurate description of what he did. Brian Deer (the journalist who uncovered the scandal) actually interviewed some of the parents of the children involved. I quote:

“From the information you provided me on our son, who I was shocked to hear had been included in their published study,” he wrote to me, after we met again in California, “the data clearly appeared to be distorted.”

He backed his concerns with medical records, including a Royal Free discharge summary. Although the family lived 5000 miles from the hospital, in February 1997 the boy (then aged 5) had been flown to London and admitted for Wakefield’s project, the undisclosed goal of which was to help sue the vaccine’s manufacturers.

 

[21C101]

Read the report I linked to. It's a perfectly accurate description of what he did. Brian Deer (the journalist who uncovered the scandal) actually interviewed some of the parents of the children involved. I quote:

Until and unless he is convicted of Fraud in Court I am not going to ascribe the word to him.

There were many many parents reporting such symptoms. They may all have been wrong and it was just coincidence that the Autism and terrible intestinal problems developed coincidentally with the vaccine being administered but a lot of people are not convinced and there was a whiff of institutions closing ranks about the whole way the thing was handled from day 1.

 

[Yew]

You are wasting your breath. Remember that they are the learned experts and it is your duty to tug your forelock and say Yes Sir to whatever they suggest.

Anyone who demurs is to be smeared as in league with Mr Icke.

I prefer the comparison to Galileo di Vincenzo Bonaiuti de' Galilei

 

[DustyBin]

If we are worried about older people using shops, surely the best solution to that is to be handing out FFP3 masks? Or, to put it another way, a measure which might actually have some effect beyond acting as a comfort blanket.

You would think the government would be encouraging this, or at least provide guidance to older people regarding FFP3 masks etc. but no they’d rather pretend omicron is an indiscriminate killer and that we’d all be better off indoors. Yet another reason why I can’t take anything they say seriously.

 

[bramling]

You would think the government would be encouraging this, or at least provide guidance to older people regarding FFP3 masks etc. but no they’d rather pretend omicron is an indiscriminate killer and that we’d all be better off indoors. Yet another reason why I can’t take anything they say seriously.

And this is indeed the problem - so much contradiction. Coupled with the poor scrutinisation of the facts in the media, people simply don’t have the information and tools readily available to make informed decisions. Indeed, there’s a lot of misinformation in common circulation - in particular the dangerous misconception that being vaccinated prevents transmission.

It’s like Khan. Massive fuss over masks, yet I don’t see much in the way of practical measures to protect station staff on the Underground, who seem to be left to mingle among the crowd. Can’t have it both ways.

 

[quantinghome]

I know this is going off topic, but was there a genuine concern about the MMR jab or was it just crackpot making stuff up?

There was significant concern for a number of years, which resulted in significantly reduced take-up of the MMR vaccine. However, the original Lancet paper was eventually shown to be fraudulent, no other study has been able to replicated the findings, and the author had a massive conflict of interest.

But don't take my word for it:

Lancet MMR autism fraud - Wikipedia
How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed | The BMJ