Could further uses have been found for the 365s?

[bramling]

Is there a reason why all the odd number units were withdrawn before the even number units?

mods note - split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-365-scrap-movements-any-news-on-unit-525.214851/

From what I understand, it was simply a neat way of making the numbers match up to GN’s requirements, whilst at the same time giving a cross-section of mileages.

As it happened, GN kept two odd-numbered units as well, 365511 & 39, so with hindsight could just as easily have kept the odds which would have added up to 21.

It was pretty remiss of the industry to be withdrawing units which had barely been in service 20 years.

 

[Tynwald]

Which were also well built, well engineered, and reliable. Disgraceful.

 

[bramling]

Which were also well built, well engineered, and reliable. Disgraceful.

100%. And all the more from an industry clamouring for money, "we got our sums wrong and ordered too many of the wrong type of train". Only a million or two pounds per vehicle.

When I say industry, I do of course include the DFT in that.

 

[YSTrains]

Which were also well built, well engineered, and reliable. Disgraceful.

At least unit 525 will be kept for use. Hopefully I can see it in action on the ECML.

 

[Tynwald]

529 today. New wheelsets. what a waste

 

[Fincra5]

Which were also well built, well engineered, and reliable. Disgraceful.

Well.... I was always a fan of a 365 but...

They weren't faultless. Quite restricted routes. Older traction equipment, AC only and so on. Not sure where else they'd go tbh...

 

[365 Networker]

Well.... I was always a fan of a 365 but...

They weren't faultless. Quite restricted routes. Older traction equipment, AC only and so on. Not sure where else they'd go tbh...

They would have been perfect for East - West rail had it been electrified. The traction equipment issues could have been rectified with the fitment of IGBTs, although this would have probably ruined their distinctive motor sound.

 

[Fincra5]

They would have been perfect for East - West rail had it been electrified. The traction equipment issues could have been rectified with the fitment of IGBTs, although this would have probably ruined their distinctive motor sound.

Maybe if it had been but then, they may have wanted a more modern train; with AirCon and so on. The problem with Networkers is what came along 5 years later.. The Electrostar.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Well.... I was always a fan of a 365 but...

They weren't faultless. Quite restricted routes. Older traction equipment, AC only and so on. Not sure where else they'd go tbh...

They weren't actually AC only though were they ? I don't know much about "stabilizer rail" stock but I am sure some of the 365s were allocated to Ramsgate for a while. Were some AC and some DC, then the latter converted to AC at a later point in their career ?

The withdrawal and scrapping of the 365s does highlight some of the absolute wastes of investment in the UK rail industry. After they had been withdrawn, the way some of the class were put to work in Scotland during the class 385 debacles kinda proves their 25kV versatility.

EDIT
Class 365: Networker Express (kentrail.org.uk)

 

[365 Networker]

they may have wanted a more modern train; with AirCon

It's possible that air conditioning could have been fitted - it was fitted to the Chiltern Network Turbos. Also, with a decent refurbishment - softer lighting, carpets and replacement gangway doors, they would feel like a new train. But as you said, the electrostars may provide a simpler option.

They weren't actually AC only though were they ? I don't know much about "stabilizer rail" stock but I am sure some of the 365s were allocated to Ramsgate for a while. Were some AC and some DC, then the latter converted to AC at a later point in their career ?

The problem with that is the fact that when units 501 to 516 were converted to AC, the third rail equipment was discarded and the associated parts are now obsolete. Because of that it is almost impossible for them to be returned to DC operation. There was another thread with more detailed information.

 

[Fincra5]

It's possible that air conditioning could have been fitted - it was fitted to the Chiltern Network Turbos. Also, with a decent refurbishment - softer lighting, carpets and replacement gangway doors, they would feel like a new train. But as you said, the electrostars may provide a simpler option.


The problem with that is the fact that when units 501 to 516 were converted to AC, the third rail equipment was discarded and the associated parts are now obsolete. Because of that it is almost impossible for them to be returned to DC operation. There was another thread with more detailed information.

Tbh if I was EWR I'd be eyeing up those 350/2s

 

[ashkeba]

Maybe if it had been but then, they may have wanted a more modern train; with AirCon and so on. The problem with Networkers is what came along 5 years later.. The Electrostar.

The Electrostar is better than the ordinary Networker, but not a patch on the Networker Express. Opening windows is not so much worse than air con for most of the year and the 365s were more comfortable for most people. An Electrostar Express should have been ordered for the near-two-hour routes.

 

[D365]

Tbh if I was EWR I'd be eyeing up those 350/2s

More appropriate given that they’re actually being proposed for battery conversion!

 

[A0wen]

Opening windows is not so much worse than air con for most of the year

Most passengers don't agree with you - opening windows make units draughty and noisier.

And anyone with hay-fever much prefers air con to open windows.

The realities of the 365s is had GN not been linked up to Thameslink, they'd probably have spent another 10 or so years there before being withdrawn as time expired. In total it was a small, non-standard class which once their 'prime' use was no longer there made them difficult to place elsewhere. Not the first time that stock has outlived its usefulness or intended purpose before being time expired and won't be the last.

 

[bramling]

Most passengers don't agree with you - opening windows make units draughty and noisier.

And anyone with hay-fever much prefers air con to open windows.

The realities of the 365s is had GN not been linked up to Thameslink, they'd probably have spent another 10 or so years there before being withdrawn as time expired. In total it was a small, non-standard class which once their 'prime' use was no longer there made them difficult to place elsewhere. Not the first time that stock has outlived its usefulness or intended purpose before being time expired and won't be the last.

The point about being small and non-standard is debatable in itself. 40 units, with some level of commonality with the much larger 465/466 fleet.

As I’ve said before, 40 units would have been the ideal fleet size for the KX-Cambridge stopping service (now it’s not going to Maidstone) plus the Peterborough and Baldock peak extras.

Alternatively the surplus half of the fleet might have found a home on c2c. DOO monitors already there for the 357s, and no SDO to worry about.

 

[warwickshire]

Or even gone back to Scotland for further use there.
On the east kilbride electricfication scheme or for other services.
Or at least been kept for London kings cross services to Peterborough.
To take pressure off lner.
So lner could then do all services say London and Peterborough but with Peterborough being pick up only up north and set down south.
With extra gtr Peterborough to London kings cross services running for this with the 365.

 

[Fincra5]

The point about being small and non-standard is debatable in itself. 40 units, with some level of commonality with the much larger 465/466 fleet.

As I’ve said before, 40 units would have been the ideal fleet size for the KX-Cambridge stopping service (now it’s not going to Maidstone) plus the Peterborough and Baldock peak extras.

Alternatively the surplus half of the fleet might have found a home on c2c. DOO monitors already there for the 357s, and no SDO to worry about.

Why? There's going to be enough 700s, 387s and 379s for the GN/TL requirement.

365s would be step back for passengers form 357s. Sure it might booster services on C2C but how much work would need doing to either the units or infrastructure? Better off with a modern fleet.

 

[A0wen]

The point about being small and non-standard is debatable in itself. 40 units, with some level of commonality with the much larger 465/466 fleet.

As I’ve said before, 40 units would have been the ideal fleet size for the KX-Cambridge stopping service (now it’s not going to Maidstone) plus the Peterborough and Baldock peak extras.

Alternatively the surplus half of the fleet might have found a home on c2c. DOO monitors already there for the 357s, and no SDO to worry about.

They were a small class when compared to the 319 (86 units) or 321s (117 units) both of which were far more standard.

The commonality with 465 / 466 was lost when it was decided to remove the DC equipment from them many years ago.

On Cambridge stoppers, the problem was the lack of SDO, which is why GN used to run 4 car trains even on Saturdays on the stoppers, which led to overcrowding. No problems with the 700s as they do have this.

Not sure why C2C would have wanted a limited number of 20 year old non-standard EMUs either ? Far easier to do what they have done and borrow 387s which are much more similar to the 357s they have than the 365s.

 

[DanNCL]

If there had been any comonsense the 365s would all have stayed at Hornsey (and been retrofitted with SDO to resolve the issues east/north of Royston), with the 387/1s instead being used on Southern branded routes. That would have allowed all of the 313s to be withdrawn, as well as the withdrawal of the worst condition 455s. I think it's ridiculous that the Brighton based 313s have outlived the 365s considering that the 313s are nearly 20 years older.

 

[JonathanH]

If there had been any comonsense the 365s would all have stayed at Hornsey (and been retrofitted with SDO to resolve the issues east/north of Royston), with the 387/1s instead being used on Southern branded routes

The 387s brought better facilities to the relevant GN routes - eg power sockets, air conditioning, faster acceleration, tables etc. Should GN travellers have been deprived of these facilities despite the stock being available?

That would have allowed all of the 313s to be withdrawn, as well as the withdrawal of the worst condition 455s. I think it's ridiculous that the Brighton based 313s have outlived the 365s considering that the 313s are nearly 20 years older.

Yes, it is shame that 365s couldn't displace the 313s but the reasons for that are well versed.

It is inexplicable that the new found slack in the 377 fleet hasn't been used to eliminate the 313s since March 2020, let alone 387s occupied elsewhere, and that service cuts aren't being introduced on the Southern network to release more 377s to eliminate the 455s.

 

[A0wen]

The 387s brought better facilities to the relevant GN routes - eg power sockets, air conditioning, faster acceleration, tables etc. Should GN travellers have been deprived of these facilities despite the stock being available?


Yes, it is shame that 365s couldn't displace the 313s but the reasons for that are well versed.

It is inexplicable that the new found slack in the 377 fleet hasn't been used to eliminate the 313s since March 2020, let alone 387s occupied elsewhere, and that service cuts aren't being introduced on the Southern network to release more 377s to eliminate the 455s.

The only way that 387s could have replaced the 313s on the Southern would have been by them not going to GN and all 365s having to be retained - that would have been tight on stock though. There were only 40 x 365s units after 1 was written off at Potters Bar.

GN took on 32 x 387s and kept back 21 x 365s for peak hour services. The logical thing would be for the 30 x 379s to go to GN which would allow the replacement of the 365s and potentially the release of a small number of 387s to Southern - though whether that would be sufficient to release the 313s isn't clear.

The 455s need replacing - that's not in doubt - but reshuffling 387s isn't going to be the answer. That one needs a new build with a proper "metro" style interior given the services the 455s are found on - 8 car 707s would make some sense.

 

[bramling]

The 387s brought better facilities to the relevant GN routes - eg power sockets, air conditioning, faster acceleration, tables etc. Should GN travellers have been deprived of these facilities despite the stock being available?

The performance difference between a 365 and 387 is minimal, indeed GTR never bothered to amend the timings to differentiate between 365 and 387. As for power sockets, the 387s may have them, but the 700s most certainly don't, and for that matter nor do they have tables, which the 365s do.

Yes, it is shame that 365s couldn't displace the 313s but the reasons for that are well versed.

It is inexplicable that the new found slack in the 377 fleet hasn't been used to eliminate the 313s since March 2020, let alone 387s occupied elsewhere, and that service cuts aren't being introduced on the Southern network to release more 377s to eliminate the 455s.

I understand there is, in fact, a tentative plan to bin the 313s. Likewise there is certainly a tentative plan to do something with the 379s. May even be related!

The problem comes should the GN peak extras return in their pre-2020 form. I'm not sure there will be such a surplus of Electrostars then, especially if Gatwick Express rebounds (and remember Gatwick Express isn't just about Gatwick, but about providing peak-hour commuter services from/to Brighton).

Not sure why C2C would have wanted a limited number of 20 year old non-standard EMUs either ? Far easier to do what they have done and borrow 387s which are much more similar to the 357s they have than the 365s.

The rationale for c2c is no SDO issues, no DOO monitor issues, and only a couple of years older than 357s. Run with them as an "inner suburban" fleet (for the Tilbury loop), and then replace the whole lot together when the 357s are due for renewal. It may well also be the case that with the LTS lines having modern signalling, any compatibility issues would have been less compared to elsewhere.

I'm not saying it would necessarily have been an optimum solution, but it would have provided a viable utilisation for the 365s stored in 2018. It would also have brought extra capacity to c2c much sooner than waiting for new build.

It wouldn't have been my number one utilisation though. All 40x 365 retained on GN would have worked much better.

 

[ashkeba]

Most passengers don't agree with you - opening windows make units draughty and noisier.

Noisy agreed but the breeze is not a draught. A draught is what you get by your ears when standing on an Electrostar with its aircon blowing out of small slots.

And anyone with hay-fever much prefers air con to open windows.

I have hay fever and would not get as far as the train if I did not address it! So this seems a poorly argument.

The realities of the 365s is had GN not been linked up to Thameslink, they'd probably have spent another 10 or so years there before being withdrawn as time expired. In total it was a small, non-standard class which once their 'prime' use was no longer there made them difficult to place elsewhere. Not the first time that stock has outlived its usefulness or intended purpose before being time expired and won't be the last.

In general I agree, which is why an Electrostar Express should have been ordered for GN longer routes. Not all of GN was linked to TL as sometimes proposed.

 

[bramling]

Not all of GN was linked to TL as sometimes proposed.

Yes what materialised in 2018 isn't quite what was planned at the point where the 700s were ordered. Hence some oddities with the way the 700s are deployed. In particular there aren't quite enough 700/1s to fully cover all the 12-car routes, and the 700 fleet as a whole is stretched, especially with reliability not having climbed as quickly as might have been hoped for.

 

[liamf656]

There is already a thread on this:

Class 365 - What if they werent scrapped?

Having been heavily discussed it is now understood that the Class 365 fleet are in storage with an uncertain future To not let that thread get carried away into speculation, I thought I would branch off into this one. It may be a difficult one to answer given the amount of available EMUs...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

The 387s brought better facilities to the relevant GN routes - eg power sockets, air conditioning, faster acceleration, tables etc. Should GN travellers have been deprived of these facilities despite the stock being available?

Power sockets, air conditioning and full size tables could all have been retrofitted to the 365s.

The only way that 387s could have replaced the 313s on the Southern would have been by them not going to GN and all 365s having to be retained - that would have been tight on stock though. There were only 40 x 365s units after 1 was written off at Potters Bar.

GN took on 32 x 387s and kept back 21 x 365s for peak hour services. The logical thing would be for the 30 x 379s to go to GN which would allow the replacement of the 365s and potentially the release of a small number of 387s to Southern - though whether that would be sufficient to release the 313s isn't clear.

The 455s need replacing - that's not in doubt - but reshuffling 387s isn't going to be the answer. That one needs a new build with a proper "metro" style interior given the services the 455s are found on - 8 car 707s would make some sense.

It wouldn't have been any tighter on stock than the present situation - GN are currently managing fine with 38 387s, two less than they'd have had available in 365s. Any shortfall could be covered by a small number of 700/0s on Cambridge stoppers as already happens.

If there had been a UK wide coordinated cascade plan the 455s could probably all have been eliminated without any new build stock for Southern (albeit at the expense of 465 withdrawals), although that would be a subject for its own thread.

 

[Fincra5]

If there had been any comonsense the 365s would all have stayed at Hornsey (and been retrofitted with SDO to resolve the issues east/north of Royston), with the 387/1s instead being used on Southern branded routes. That would have allowed all of the 313s to be withdrawn, as well as the withdrawal of the worst condition 455s. I think it's ridiculous that the Brighton based 313s have outlived the 365s considering that the 313s are nearly 20 years older.

A) Can it even be done...
B) What's the cost.

379s are coming to GN to displace 387s South. SE still have sublease 377/5s which could come back to SN. With service reductions 455s and 313s can be replaced by the 30 x 387s and 23 377/5s.

 

[DanNCL]

A) Can it even be done...
B) What's the cost.

379s are coming to GN to displace 387s South. SE still have sublease 377/5s which could come back to SN. With service reductions 455s and 313s can be replaced by the 30 x 387s and 23 377/5s.

SDO can be retrofitted to older stock, the cost however, potentially quite expensive!

 

[A0wen]

Power sockets, air conditioning and full size tables could all have been retrofitted to the 365s.

At what cost? What other 25 year old stock has ever gone through such an extensive rebuild? They'd basically end up being 25 year old "new" trains - at which point buying genuinely new trains makes more sense, particularly when it can be tied to other orders as was the case with the 387s.

 

[Fincra5]

At what cost? What other 25 year old stock has ever gone through such an extensive rebuild? They'd basically end up being 25 year old "new" trains - at which point buying genuinely new trains makes more sense, particularly when it can be tied to other orders as was the case with the 387s.

This ^^