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Cricket

Falcon1200

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At least there's positive! Jonny Bairstow got into double figures in the first innings...

And Buttler was Not Out at the end !

Root cannot possibly continue as Captain (but must remain as a batsman) but as always the question is who would replace him ? And the same goes for all those other losers too.
Still, at least things can't get any worse for the last two Tests...... can they ?
 
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birchesgreen

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What's the long term solution to return England back to their winning ways of yesteryear? We clearly don't have enough decent test level players to come close to winning any Test match right now, even against Zimbabwe, Ireland or Bangladesh.
Well i dunno, we'd probably roll over the first 2 at least quite comfortably.

A key problem is the ECB chasing the short form coin and leaving us with a chaotic season with county championship games mostly related to the book ends of the season. A more balanced season won't be solve all the problems but it will be a start. Run the CC throughout the season, run 50 over games (another format being marginalised by the ECB for some reason) also throughout with the T20 in it's usual place mid-summer and bin the 100.

Ultimately though the money is with T20 franchise leagues, maybe England is ahead of the curve here and other top test nations will start to suffer as players opt for bigger bucks as the current generation move on...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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A key problem is the ECB chasing the short form coin and leaving us with a chaotic season with county championship games mostly related to the book ends of the season. A more balanced season won't be solve all the problems but it will be a start. Run the CC throughout the season, run 50 over games (another format being marginalised by the ECB for some reason) also throughout with the T20 in it's usual place mid-summer and bin the 100.

Ultimately though the money is with T20 franchise leagues, maybe England is ahead of the curve here and other top test nations will start to suffer as players opt for bigger bucks as the current generation move on...
The "Hundred" is as far removed from the realities of the County Championship as can be imagined and should be marketed as a totally different sport with players on proper long-term contractual basis. From what I have seen, it seems popular with family groups that would not be seen at County Championship matches.


Does anyone feel that the move made from a three-day to four-day format in the County Championship should have helped in any preparation for five-day Test Matches?
 

birchesgreen

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Does anyone feel that the move made from a three-day to four-day format in the County Championship should have helped in any preparation for five-day Test Matches?
That move was made years ago, considering England were pretty much on top of the test world not that long ago that would indicate it had been a success? A success that has now been well and truly squandered.
 

SteveM70

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Where to begin?

The problems as I see them:

- The ECB are obsessed with white ball cricket and have marginalised the domestic red ball game

- The centrally contracted players are rarely released to play four day county cricket anyway, so get even less chance to prepare

- This also means that the captain has very little experience of captaincy in the long-form game

- Test selection seems to be largely limited to the test match ground counties. There are players at “unfashionable” counties who value their wickets and knuckle down more, but they never get selected unless they move on to a bigger club

- The ECB and the television companies have shoehorned so much more international cricket into the calendar that even if they were allowed, there’s much less time for test players to play county cricket. (For example, everyone is lauding Root for scoring so many runs this year. He’s third on the list, having played 15 tests; the two above him played 11)

- This also means tour schedules are ridiculously compressed so there is no meaningful preparation and no matches between tests

For me, it starts with the ECB asking themselves why they exist. Is it to maximise the amount of money they make, or to have the best England team. I don’t believe both are possible
 

Mikey C

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Where to begin?

The problems as I see them:

- The ECB are obsessed with white ball cricket and have marginalised the domestic red ball game

- The centrally contracted players are rarely released to play four day county cricket anyway, so get even less chance to prepare

- This also means that the captain has very little experience of captaincy in the long-form game

- Test selection seems to be largely limited to the test match ground counties. There are players at “unfashionable” counties who value their wickets and knuckle down more, but they never get selected unless they move on to a bigger club

- The ECB and the television companies have shoehorned so much more international cricket into the calendar that even if they were allowed, there’s much less time for test players to play county cricket. (For example, everyone is lauding Root for scoring so many runs this year. He’s third on the list, having played 15 tests; the two above him played 11)

- This also means tour schedules are ridiculously compressed so there is no meaningful preparation and no matches between tests


For me, it starts with the ECB asking themselves why they exist. Is it to maximise the amount of money they make, or to have the best England team. I don’t believe both are possible
England have played a ridiculous number of games this year

2 in Sri lanka
4 in India
2 at home to NZ
4 at home to India
3 in Aus

With the bubble environment, no wonder players get mentally frazzled.
 

DelW

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England are a 10th rate side.
Proven today.

OK, England have pulled the rug from under me, I concede the point after last night's debacle :oops:. I still don't think they are really as bad as their awful Ashes performances so far suggest, but it's getting harder and harder to maintain that opinion.

England have played a ridiculous number of games this year

2 in Sri lanka
4 in India
2 at home to NZ
4 at home to India
3 in Aus

With the bubble environment, no wonder players get mentally frazzled.

I agree that there's too much test cricket being shoehorned in at the expense of both match quality and players' health. It's mainly driven by the insatiable appetite of the broadcasters, aided and abetted by some among the administrators who see it as a cash cow. That same focus on money has driven the invention of The Hundred, which has contributed to the unbalancing of the summer season and the marginalising of four day county cricket. However that can't be blamed for the poor performance of the current team, though it doesn't bode well for the future.
 

Busaholic

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Boland holy hell what bowling.

SCOTT BOLAND WHAT A VICTORIAN!

6 WICKETS!

It's all over. England have been slaughtered
You've, perhaps inadvertently, summed it up well there i.e. such scores and individual performances are reminiscent of those from Victorian times, specifically the late Nineteenth Century. No Australian had ever before taken a 'five-fer' on debut for so few runs, the only one close to it was from that century. Australia's 267 was the second lowest score in Ashes history to earn an innings victory, only beaten by England's 172 in the 1880s. fr

Re England side, how about bringing in Sam Billings from the Big Bash? Maybe Joe Clarke too, as an opener. Alex Hales would be a step too far though. Saj Mahmood has been doing okay too.
 

Darandio

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That same focus on money has driven the invention of The Hundred, which has contributed to the unbalancing of the summer season and the marginalising of four day county cricket. However that can't be blamed for the poor performance of the current team, though it doesn't bode well for the future.

It can't really be blamed but many are desperate to make it the sole reason this morning. The truth is that The Hundred has been a huge success in terms of encouraging cricket participation for future generations and that will be vital to all forms of cricket. They can't throw away that opportunity and need to find a way to make it all work.
 

Busaholic

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The truth is that The Hundred has been a huge success in terms of encouraging cricket participation for future generations and that will be vital to all forms of cricket.
I think it's far too early to say that. Remember when the 2012 Olympics was going to be the harbinger of wonderful things throughout many strands of the sporting life? Just imagine if soccer announced its most important format for the future would be five-a-sides played over a total of forty minutes in two sessions, with a pink football and blaring music accompaniment. If they did that, they'd be very careful to ensure the traditional game continued as normal and got the resources to enable the national side not to be an international embarassment.
 
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Darandio

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I think it's far too early to say that. Remember when the 2012 Olympics was going to be the harbinger of wonderful things throughout many strands of the sporting life? Just imagine if soccer announced its most important format for the future would be five-a-sides played over a total of forty minutes in two sessions, with a pink football and blaring music accompaniment. If they did that, they'd be very careful to ensure the traditional game continued as normal and got the resources to enable the national side not to be an international embarassment.

Maybe it is too early but the participation figures don't lie. Equally it's entirely possible a few years of such a format will see interest wane and participation dwindle. We'll see.

Football isn't really comparable, the traditional game still remains a huge draw in it's current format and doesn't have the same future worries about new generations taking part. Equivalent international football events draw huge TV audiences that feature several times in the biggest ratings over the decade and also bring in people who wouldn't normally watch the domestic version of the game.

With all the will in the world this isn't the same for test cricket and never would be even if it returned to terrestrial television.
 

Mikey C

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It can't really be blamed but many are desperate to make it the sole reason this morning. The truth is that The Hundred has been a huge success in terms of encouraging cricket participation for future generations and that will be vital to all forms of cricket. They can't throw away that opportunity and need to find a way to make it all work.
How?

Getting live cricket back on the BBC clearly is a good thing, but you don't need a new format to do that. A beefed up Blast could have been created with some terrestrial TV coverage
 

Darandio

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Did you see The Hundred?

Record crowds with thousands upon thousands of children in attendance that were clearly enjoying themselves. Huge audience numbers at home on TV. Record numbers of children participating in cricket over the summer through events related to it. In excess of a two fold increase in competetive junior fixtures.

Whilst many traditional cricket fans seem to hate it it's very hard to argue that it didn't make a huge impact.
 

DarloRich

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Did you see The Hundred?

Record crowds with thousands upon thousands of children in attendance that were clearly enjoying themselves. Huge audience numbers at home on TV. Record numbers of children participating in cricket over the summer through events related to it. In excess of a two fold increase in competetive junior fixtures.

Whilst many traditional cricket fans seem to hate it it's very hard to argue that it didn't make a huge impact.
And it wont be going away despite what the stuffy old timer blazer and crest wearers want. That is where the money is.

A beefed up Blast could have been created with some terrestrial TV coverage
for the millionth time: that competition is tied up in a broadcast deal. ECB clearly thought they couldn't get out of that deal and offer terrestrial coverage.
 

Darandio

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Mark Ramprakash has also just been on Sky Sports News as well, talking critically about how cricketers are prioritising shorter forms in different countries because that's where the money is and therefore neglecting test cricket.

Cricket like many other sports is a very short career and nobody can be blamed for trying to maximise their earnings while they can, it's not their fault that these shorter forms generate much more interest and money. Any old timers and traditionalists seriously suggesting these people should forego earning greater sums of money simply because playing for your country in a test match is somehow the pinnacle of the game don't live in the real world.
 

ainsworth74

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The Hundred isn't the reason that the emperor has been shown to be wearing no clothes. England's batting was fragile for several years before this and often relied on the heroics of Root or Stokes or the bowlers to dig them out of disastrous holes. We fondly remember the heroics of Stokes at Headingly in 2019 but let's not forget that what happened before then was England's bowlers dismissed Australia for 179 and then England's batsmen collapsed to 67 all out. One less than they managed here today. So it isn't even the first time in recent history they've been dismissed like this by Australia! The Hundred didn't cause what happened. It is, at worst, a symptom of the wider malaise within the ECB that has seen the red ball game side-lined to the benefit of the white ball game.

That isn't to say that I don't have problem with The Hundred but my only real qualm is the bizarre decision to introduce another format of the game. Every single objective that the ECB set out to achieve (including the most important of getting the ruddy game back on free to air television) could have equally have been achieved with a T20 franchise competition (which to my understanding is what the BBC thought they were getting). Indeed I imagine, once they've finished their, utterly justified, gloating that @Pakenhamtrain would be able to confirm that the Big Bash ticks the various boxes the ECB were looking for including the biggies of being appealing to families and being available widely on free to air TV. Everything else about The Hundred? Brilliant. Crack on because my god the game needs to stop being hidden behind the Sky paywall.

But the ECB have got questions to answer and there needs to be fundamental changes within the game. We cannot just shrug shoulders and muddle on. There needs to be some hard conversations about the structure of the game at home and how the domestic season is shaped. It's no coincidence, for instance, that the England Test side reached it's highest ebb in the early 2010s after a decade or so of eighteen counties split into two divisions everyone playing everyone twice with four-day games spread throughout the season. Since then we've fiddled with first messing around the second division (they used a different ball for a while) before starting to really tinker with the scheduling (games shoe-horned into the beginning and end of the season which reached an extreme last season but had been going on for a while before hand) and then the format with ditching divisions and having an asynchronous schedule with teams playing each other an odd number of times, etc etc.

Is it any surprise that players aren't able to bat well? Most of them spend their time batting in the worst conditions for batting so never get to actually make big runs all that often. Whilst it is starting to infect bowlers as well as they're not used to bowling on anything other than spicy spring and autumn decks so don't have to work out how to prise wickets out on a flat deck!

This is quite apart from actually grappling with the inclusion issues particularly with regards to race but also socio-economic status as well. English cricket is not only very white but it's also very middle and upper class. Think of all the talent we're letting bleed out of the game because people don't "fit" a certain mould.

I honestly don't really know how to square this circle. But I'd suggest a starting point would be to look at the domestic structure and consider whether or not it's fit for purpose. I'd suggest that it isn't at all and has been thoroughly broken in recent years. Of course if nothing changes then it's almost certain that the white ball game will also start to collapse in the next few years as the 50 over competition has basically been relegated to secondary status alongside the County Championship and even the Blast has been significantly marginalised.

Again, The Hundred is important to the long term future of the game in this country, we can't just wish it out of existence as the game does need something like it (just for the love of god make it a T20 tournament). But there needs to be a rebalancing of the domestic season and unless/until the ECB are willing to get to grips with that then things like what happened today will keep happening with depressing regularity.
 

backontrack

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The England and Wales Cricket Board is so shockingly inept, profit-minded and oblivious that it in all honesty doesn't even deserve the constructive benefit of criticism. Burn the whole thing down.
 

Busaholic

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And it wont be going away despite what the stuffy old timer blazer and crest wearers want. That is where the money is.


for the millionth time: that competition is tied up in a broadcast deal. ECB clearly thought they couldn't get out of that deal and offer terrestrial coverage.
Tail wagging the dog, in other words, I've never worn a blazer in my life, and never wish to do so. Test cricket is followed by millions throughout the world. There is absolutely no reason to have both a 20/20 competition and The Hundred back-to-back, and one reason for the good crowds was that people would have gone in their droves to anything remotely entertaining after being prevented from doing so for so long,

There is plenty of money in test cricket, although plenty is never enough for some people, particularly those at or near the top in English or Indian cricket. No wonder some Middle Eastern states wish to muscle in just as they have been allowed to do in English football.
 

DarloRich

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Tail wagging the dog, in other words, I've never worn a blazer in my life, and never wish to do so. Test cricket is followed by millions throughout the world. There is absolutely no reason to have both a 20/20 competition and The Hundred back-to-back, and one reason for the good crowds was that people would have gone in their droves to anything remotely entertaining after being prevented from doing so for so long,

There is plenty of money in test cricket, although plenty is never enough for some people, particularly those at or near the top in English or Indian cricket. No wonder some Middle Eastern states wish to muscle in just as they have been allowed to do in English football.
The 100 wont be going away, at least not until imo it is merged into a UKPL 20/20 competition once whatever commercial/broadcast agreements around the Blast come to an end. Also, the ECB want that competition out of the hands of the counties and away from the old school county structure into something more modern and vibrant. Many people have no idea what a county is. It means nothing, especially, to younger people living away from the traditional shires. What is Middlesex? Or Surrey? Where is it? Am I in it? Is it my team?

Durham (my team) is just as bad - does it cover Middlesbrough? Newcastle? Hexham? Darlington? Sunderland? What about Carlisle? What about Berwick?
I live in Milton Keynes now - Who is my county? who do I support? Northamptonshire? Leicestershire? Middlesex? Warwickshire?

The county system means nothing to the modern world and needs refreshing.

However, as @ainsworth74 says the Hundred isn't the reason the England test team is crap. It is a convenient excuse, especially for those predisposed to be resistant to change.

However much money there is in test cricket it is peanuts compared to franchised short form cricket. I don't understand what your final sentence is about but again smacks of resistance to or unwillingness to accept change. it is a LONG time since crusty old duffers at the TCCB/MCC ran cricket for their benefit. They got left behind when the game changed.

Cricket like many other sports is a very short career and nobody can be blamed for trying to maximise their earnings while they can, it's not their fault that these shorter forms generate much more interest and money. Any old timers and traditionalists seriously suggesting these people should forego earning greater sums of money simply because playing for your country in a test match is somehow the pinnacle of the game don't live in the real world.
Exactly - I know where I would be playing and it wouldn't be for the pride of representing my country or any old guff like that. It would be where I could generate the maximum return for my skills. Want me to focus on test cricket? No problem. Coin me up the same as the IPL and I am your man.
 

backontrack

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My dad suggested gathering the best 22 players in England and dividing them into two teams - one with our best batters, and one with the best bowlers. If the batters can't survive against Broad and Anderson, they shouldn't be in the team.

I like that suggestion, at least because it'd be fun to see Broad and Anderson destroy the openers who have so frequently utterly let them down.

Many people have no idea what a county is. It means nothing, especially, to younger people living away from the traditional shires. What is Middlesex? Or Surrey? Where is it? Am I in it? Is it my team?

Durham (my team) is just as bad - does it cover Middlesbrough? Newcastle? Hexham? Darlington? Sunderland? What about Carlisle? What about Berwick?
I live in Milton Keynes now - Who is my county? who do I support? Northamptonshire? Leicestershire? Middlesex? Warwickshire?

The county system means nothing to the modern world and needs refreshing.
The Yorkshire stories at the moment can't be helping the public image of the county game, either.

A redrawn, five-day regional game might be the answer, and a decent thing to cultivate.

Pumping more and more money into whiteball cricket only worsens the test situation - it's a daft response to the catastrophic Ashes.
 

birchesgreen

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I live in Milton Keynes now - Who is my county? who do I support? Northamptonshire? Leicestershire? Middlesex? Warwickshire?
Buckinghamshire, who were invited to become a first class county but declined but are in the minor counties.

I see the "kill the counties" mob are out in force again, funny how when England are doing well they are quiet.
 

backontrack

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Buckinghamshire, who were invited to become a first class county but declined but are in the minor counties.

I see the "kill the counties" mob are out in force again, funny how when England are doing well they are quiet.
I'm not part of any mob thank you! :rolleyes:

There has to be a properly rejigged competition. The two-division model doesn't work - it just halves the England player pool. There has to be a new logical system with minor counties given the opportunity to stake a claim.
 

SteveM70

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I'm not part of any mob thank you! :rolleyes:

There has to be a properly rejigged competition. The two-division model doesn't work - it just halves the England player pool. There has to be a new logical system with minor counties given the opportunity to stake a claim.

Why does it?

If a player in a division 2 team is good enough, he should be picked. Although more likely he’ll be poached by one of the “big” counties anyway.

But that’s another issue entirely, which the ECB should but won’t address
 

ainsworth74

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The two-division model doesn't work - it just halves the England player pool.
The two division model delivered the England test team that was the best side in the world in the early 2010s...

The model works perfectly fine. It's the ECB breaking it in recent years that's lead us here.
 

Busaholic

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The two division model delivered the England test team that was the best side in the world in the early 2010s...

The model works perfectly fine. It's the ECB breaking it in recent years that's lead us here.
More recently Marnus Labuschagne established the credentials in county cricket which directly led to his inclusion in the test squad and his opportunity to replace the concussed Steve Smith at Lords; the rest is history. Greg Blewett, Matthew Hayden, Justin Langer, the Waugh brothers. They all flourished in first class county cricket before becoming test mainstays. Can't immediately bring to mind the pace bowlers, other than Stuart Clark.
 

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