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Some things have improved over the years..

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contrex

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What about them?

80% of over 55s own a smartphone, 90%-97% of retired households own a landline phone and almost 100% of all households have a mobile phone of some sort.

Anyone choosing to remain in the 20th century obviously cannot avail of the benefits of the 21st century.
Well said. I'm 69 and three quarters. I've been programming computers since the 1970s, I have 3 desktops, 2 laptops, a tablet, 2 smartphones (Android), and 3 Raspberry Pis. I have built my own NAS. All of my friends up to age 86 have a smartphone and some kind of PC. I'm sick of 12-year-old assistants in Currys patronizing me.
 
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XAM2175

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Some long for the days when you could turn up at a station on the day of travel (not have to book in advance),
... which you can still do.

pay a reasonable, simply-understood fare (not be confused by a plethora of "deals"),
Anytime tickets are still available.

know that the train is almost certainly never going to be cancelled (because there was always spare stock and staff),
Ah yes, because BR never ever cancelled a train.

and be assured that there will be a comfortable seat in a warm compartment (not Chinese-style "hard" class in a cramped coach) ,
1) These are entirely subjective measures.
2) Ah yes, because none of BR's trains were ever cold and/or cramped and/or comprised of saloon cars.

and with a pleasant view out of a window (not stuck behind a side pillar)
Thankfully we don't yet (and are unlikely to ever) find ourselves in a situation where every single window seat is 'blind'.
 

Horizon22

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To go back to the title of the thread, things can't have "improved over the years" when not all have access to the so-called improvements.

Some long for the days when you could turn up at a station on the day of travel (not have to book in advance), pay a reasonable, simply-understood fare (not be confused by a plethora of "deals"), know that the train is almost certainly never going to be cancelled (because there was always spare stock and staff), and be assured that there will be a comfortable seat in a warm compartment (not Chinese-style "hard" class in a cramped coach) , and with a pleasant view out of a window (not stuck behind a side pillar)

If we could bring back those days, then compared to the past 20 years or so, I'd agree that some things would have improved.

1. You can still turn up a station on a day of travel, but understandably flexibility comes at a bit of a cost
2. Many places still have relatively simple fares, but yes privitisation has caused some extra fragmentation.
3. Trains were "almost certainly never cancelled" in the past? Please.
4. I don't think I've come across many cold trains - I would suggest air conditioning is generally more reliable now as technology has evolved. Also we should - to an extent - be supportive of a busier railway.
5. The vast majority of seats aren't behind any pillar.

A lot of cherry-picking going on there!
 

Stan_Butler

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Contrex, it’s interesting that you are sick of being patronised yourself yet you will patronise retail employees who will be at least 16, and in most cases at least 18 years old.
 

NSE

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I think Contrex’s point is bang on. I live with my 75 year old relative and when I showed her how to check bus times on her phone (an iPhone nonetheless) she became very excited. Yeah sure, she isn’t going to be coming out of retirement to work at Apple, but she no longer needs any form of paper timetables. Though she does pick them up occasionally for me, her 28 year old grandson with more technology than shes ever owned. The irony!

Regarding a ‘plethora of deals’ as put forward by Muddythefish, yes it can be overwhelming when you don’t know the finer details, but I tend to find it happens when companies are trying to make a cheaper deal. Cambridge is a station I know very well, by bringing in AGA only tickets for example, yes it might confuse people to begin with (So I can travel to London but have to go to Liverpool Street, so I can go to Kings Cross and take the tube there, right?!) but the ticket is only bought in try and offer cheaper travel.

Personally, lots of things are so much better. Live travel apps and information are so helpful. Most of my travel is around London on a daily basis and I’m often hovering on an app checking live train times (Do i walk quickly to A and get to B by changing at C or do I get a bus to D and train straight to E and walk from there etc). Lots of things aren’t perfect and there’s plenty of examples where some simple tweaks and a bit of careful consideration could have made such a difference, but generally, so much has improved.
 

contrex

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I think Contrex’s point is bang on.
Thank you! My friend aged 86 used to program on Unix minis and mainframes in the 1970s and 1980s and uses Linux on her PC. She was in Carphone Warehouse for a smartphone and the lad kept trying to sell her an oldie's phone with big buttons 'as it would be easier for you'. Wouldn't listen to her. She decided to order a Motorola Moto G online, which she is very happy with. She has already rooted it.
 
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Marton

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Whitby, eight trains a day not so many years ago, and possibly Newquay, are possibly worse. And what about Berney Arms?
But now with a year round Sunday service and a late train SuX. Both are totally new.
 

ComUtoR

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Thank you! My friend aged 86 used to program on Unix minis and mainframes in the 1970s and 1980s and uses Linux on her PC. She was in Carphone Warehouse for a smartphone and the lad kept trying to sell her a oldie's phone with big buttons 'as it would be easier for you'. Wouldn't listen to her. She decided to order a Motorola Moto G online, which she is very happy with. She has already rooted it.
You are unique amongst 80+ yr olds. Many would be grateful for the help; the salesperson did their job.

What could have gone better is if you or your friend told the salesperson that you were somewhat of a computer expert and wanted something you could jailbreak and wanted the techspecs for rather than all the fluff for the Hoi Poloi. That way; you both could have won.
 

contrex

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You are unique amongst 80+ yr olds.
I'm not 80+, my friend is, as I quite clearly wrote. No way is she "unique" in being at home with IT, and in fact very knowledgeable. She said "I do know what I'm talking about, I want the Motorola", and when he ignored that, she lost patience, left and bought elsewhere. I'm only 69, but I get similar treatment. Yes, a good salesperson offers help, but they also listen to the customer.
 

6Gman

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Lighting on trains and stations is much better now, although those dimmer switches in Mk1 compartments were nice when you wanted to sleep at night!

External cleanliness of trains is also much better. I remember some filthy trains in the 1970s with windows too dirty to see through.
Brighter, but not better if you want to look out of the window!
 

Egg Centric

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I'm not 80+, my friend is, as I quite clearly wrote. No way is she "unique" in being at home with IT, and in fact very knowledgeable. She said "I do know what I'm talking about, I want the Motorola", and when he ignored that, she lost patience, left and bought elsewhere. I'm only 69, but I get similar treatment. Yes, a good salesperson offers help, but they also listen to the customer.

indeed. My 93 year old grandmother and I mostly communicate (as we’re 200 odd miles away from each other) using WhatsApp which she has had to sideload onto her Android tablet as it’s not officially supported. Not all elderly are inept, it’s learned helplessness in many cases.
 

Ant158

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Brighter, but not better if you want to look out of the window!
Indeed brighter and more energy efficient but not necessarily better. There is no need for bright white light all the time. I can’t be the only one this has made travelling at night unbearable.
 

XAM2175

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Indeed brighter and more energy efficient but not necessarily better. There is no need for bright white light all the time. I can’t be the only one this has made travelling at night unbearable.

You are not, but you're still likely to be in the minority:
 

Jim the Jim

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In terms of not being access information about delayed/cancelled trains before arriving at the station, people without access to the internet are no worse off than they have been all their lives. In this instance technology has made things better for lots of people, but it hasn't made things worse for anyone. I don't see what how we can expect the railway to create a level field for all in this regard, except for never ever running trains late (which is never going to happen) or making everybody suffer by not publishing information on the internet at all (which would be an absurd thing to attempt).

There are lots and lots of ways in which it is genuinely getting harder for people with access to the "right" technology to participate in society, including on the railway in some instances - in which the new technology is replacing rather than simply supplementing existing arrangements - but this is not one of them.
 

NSE

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You are unique amongst 80+ yr olds. Many would be grateful for the help; the salesperson did their job.

What could have gone better is if you or your friend told the salesperson that you were somewhat of a computer expert and wanted something you could jailbreak and wanted the techspecs for rather than all the fluff for the Hoi Poloi. That way; you both could have won.
I’d argue the salesperson did not do their job. Sure, I believe many elderly people will arrive and need/benefit from the ‘here is a simple phone’ spiel, but a good sales person should note the difference. Taking it to a slight extreme, I can’t see a sales person talking to Lord Sir Alan of Sugar about him needing a phone with big buttons and extra loud speaker cause he’s mutton…
 

AlbertBeale

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To go back to the title of the thread, things can't have "improved over the years" when not all have access to the so-called improvements.

Some long for the days when you could turn up at a station on the day of travel (not have to book in advance), pay a reasonable, simply-understood fare (not be confused by a plethora of "deals"), know that the train is almost certainly never going to be cancelled (because there was always spare stock and staff), and be assured that there will be a comfortable seat in a warm compartment (not Chinese-style "hard" class in a cramped coach) , and with a pleasant view out of a window (not stuck behind a side pillar)

If we could bring back those days, then compared to the past 20 years or so, I'd agree that some things would have improved.

Sounds good to me!

Well said. I'm 69 and three quarters. I've been programming computers since the 1970s, I have 3 desktops, 2 laptops, a tablet, 2 smartphones (Android), and 3 Raspberry Pis. I have built my own NAS. All of my friends up to age 86 have a smartphone and some kind of PC. I'm sick of 12-year-old assistants in Currys patronizing me.

I'm even older. I've been programming computers since the 1960s. I don't have a mobile phone.
 

Pigeon

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Agree with both of those.

The current fares setup is indistinguishable from one that has been formally designed around the principle that in buying a rail ticket you are not merely performing the necessary preliminaries for a train journey, you are in addition committing yourself to suffer a given standard measure of grief. You are given a variety of choices over how much grief you suffer through buying the ticket being a pain in the arse, how much through using it being a pain in the arse, and how much through just being plain straightforwardly ripped off; but you don't get a choice to just make a train journey without having to undergo any kind of metaphorical smack in the guts.

But I do get that very basic thing if I decide to go by car. It costs exactly the same whenever I want to use it; all I have to do is go to the petrol station and give them some money; nobody does something to the petrol so it only works on one particular road at one particular time of one particular day; nobody tries to seduce me into suffering the hassle of maintaining means to pass the payment through some parasitic third party so they can skim it by illogically making the petrol more expensive if I don't, or tries to make me pay for it other than at the time I actually get it. And moreover, I always have a comfortable seat and I always have a good view.

None of this is exactly complicated or somehow impossible for the railway to produce. Quite the opposite in fact - it's what you get automatically, with no effort at all, simply by not bothering to invent ways to make things more complicated and awkward. And once upon a time it was quite normal for train seats to have big springy soft cushions and be lined up with the windows (which after all is what the windows are for), which is fine evidence that they could perfectly well build them like that now except they can't be arsed.

This dumb worship of the even dumber idea of having the railway competing with itself has obscured what surely ought to be very obvious, that if it has to be said or desired to "compete" with anything - or, more sensibly, if it needs to provide a useful alternative to anything - then that "thing" is not other trains, but first and foremost cars. And in comparison with cars it already has some formidable disadvantages which arise from differences too fundamental to ever be avoided - needing to stop at stations instead of your actual destination, for instance, or be slow and indirect because of hostile geography - with what it must in all honesty be admitted is only a rather weak set of positive points of comparison as a counterbalance. It's nothing short of bloody daft to make the comparison even less favourable by loading the railway with artificial complications and difficulties that only exist by decree, and which never have to even cross your mind if you use a car instead.

(And yeah, mobile phones; I am well aware that they are not fit for use with their standard software, and while I would be technically able to sanitise one, I really, really, really can not be arsed. It means not just ripping out all the spyware crap but replacing the entire software suite with one which is not designed to facilitate the exfiltration of personal information. Way too much hassle and the thing is still physically useless because of the stupidly small screen with no bash protection and the absence of a keyboard. If I even wanted a mobile computing device - which I don't; apart from anything else I appreciate the break - then a laptop running Linux would be much more usable at enormously less expense in both money and hassle.)

It is true that some things on the railways have got better. Accessibility of stations is a point where there has been a great deal of improvement (though please choose some colour to paint the ramps which is derived from camo rather than the Sixth Doctor's fashion sense), and the provision of wheelchair toilets on trains is to be applauded (even if the designer of the door mechanisms was headhunted from a manufacturer of booby traps). Getting between train and platform still not great: at least with a guard's van you could easily pick out where to aim for to find a ramp and a helping hand, but too many trains these days just look the same all the way along and you've no idea where to go.

Cleanliness of interiors and seat cushions has also got a lot better since they discovered hoovers, and the windows are usually washed better than they used to be; still get some murky offerings, but not the approach to opacity that you used to find.

Not having the saloon fill with fumes of unburnt diesel from the heating system is a definite advantage of modern DMUs over the old ones, but other stock was always fine for warmth as long as the loco was able to provide it; the ridiculous unreliability of steam heat boilers or the substitution of no-heat locos were the kind of things that caused problems. But then a no-heat loco was considerably better than a cancelled service, which is what you'd most likely get in an equivalent situation these days.

Ambience and general pleasantness of station environments has gone right down the pan, though. Smaller stations simply make it too hard to get out of the weather. As the size increases, you start to get afflicted with the constant blare of superfluously verbose and repetitive automatic announcements. Large stations, you get glaring lights and garish colours and stuffy smells and the deliberate exacerbation of overcrowding by corralling passengers into this sensory overload zone to try and flog them expensive crap, thereby also preventing you from locating your train and getting aboard in your own time, and condemning you to the barrier scrum followed by the race for a seat... which sucks if you're not actually able to race.
 

Pit_buzzer

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If I choose to use the car I need petrol, or diesel, or electricity. I need to decide weather to go to shell, or esso, or morrisons. There are 4 pumps to choose from, most will be the wrong fuel for the car. I have to decide weather to pay at the pump, pay in cash, pay by card etc etc
But we do this without a second thought so why is it apparently so difficult to make these kind of choices on the railway
 

edwin_m

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But I do get that very basic thing if I decide to go by car. It costs exactly the same whenever I want to use it; all I have to do is go to the petrol station and give them some money; nobody does something to the petrol so it only works on one particular road at one particular time of one particular day; nobody tries to seduce me into suffering the hassle of maintaining means to pass the payment through some parasitic third party so they can skim it by illogically making the petrol more expensive if I don't, or tries to make me pay for it other than at the time I actually get it. And moreover, I always have a comfortable seat and I always have a good view.
If you drive at peak times you are pretty much guaranteed to suffer congestion delay on many journeys, but you don't know how much. So you need to factor in extra time. On the train you know the timetable and unless some serious random delay is encountered (which is probably at least as likely on the roads) your arrival time is predictable. Thus, if you value time as well, driving costs more at peak times too - quite apart from the extra fuel consumption in stop-start traffic.
 

Mogz

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I do wonder whether some of the “it was better in the old days” thinking is based on people’s experiences on heritage railways which are an idealised view of the way things were.

Rail using, (but not railway enthusiast) relatives of mine who are old enough to have been there them were glad to see the back of steam and the advent of the HST all within the space of about a decade.

To them, the old railway was slow, dirty and unreliable.

For my part, these are the positives and negatives I have seen in my lifetime which covers the BR blue era to the present day:

Better:

Accessibility for all travellers.

Age and reliability of rolling stock.

Attitude and helpfulness of staff.

Station ambience and facilities.

Leg-room in airline seats on the newest rolling stock.

Security and feeling of security on trains and at stations.

Colour schemes on train interiors. I remember being very excited about the advent of the IC225 and very disappointed with the full grey and beige interior.

The availability of information and ticketing options, particularly via TOC apps.



Worse:

The price of peak time tickets.

Maps showing only the TOC’s own services.

The hardness of seating on the latest trains (though if that’s a quid pro quo for the better leg-room I’d settle for that!)

The removal of buffet services from many IC trains and the virtual abolition of restaurant cars (save for a few select services where they are marketed as a luxury option).

The abolition of compartments. I know these are not everyone’s cup of tea but there have been occasions eg when travelling long distance with small children) when these would have been of benefit to me and other travellers. Many Continental trains still have a few. Why not here?
 

edwin_m

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If I choose to use the car I need petrol, or diesel, or electricity. I need to decide weather to go to shell, or esso, or morrisons. There are 4 pumps to choose from, most will be the wrong fuel for the car. I have to decide weather to pay at the pump, pay in cash, pay by card etc etc
But we do this without a second thought so why is it apparently so difficult to make these kind of choices on the railway
Because in the context of a transport system, particularly over a shorter distance where people tend to want to catch the first service rather than planning in advance, unrestricted competition makes things worse for most passengers most of the time. Just look at our buses in GB outside London.
 

Colin1501

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And catering is far better now. The use of trolleys changed it for me. And the joke curly BR cheese sarnie has gone. Hooray!
That's if you have any. Most long distance services on the Southern Region had buffet cars in the 1970s, while a full restaurant service was available on the Bournemouth line. Over the last few years, trolleys have progressively vanished from South Eastern, Southern, and most recently South Western Railway services. The whole area between London, Ramsgate and Weymouth is now a catering free zone.
 

route101

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That's if you have any. Most long distance services on the Southern Region had buffet cars in the 1970s, while a full restaurant service was available on the Bournemouth line. Over the last few years, trolleys have progressively vanished from South Eastern, Southern, and most recently South Western Railway services. The whole area between London, Ramsgate and Weymouth is now a catering free zone.
As a more recent user of the services in the Southeast of England, amazes me there used to be restaurant and buffet car. Only catering Ive seen on the South Coast is on GWR once and from Salisbury to London.
 

NSE

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I think the best on train catering I’ve seen is Virgin’s shop. The rest of it is a waste of time in my opinion. I appreciate I’m coming from within the M25 and I wouldn’t suggest removing it from rural lines etc, but I haven’t seen the trolley improve from the pathetic overpriced snacks they serve, so every time a trolley goes, that’s an improvement!
 

Devonian

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Ambience and general pleasantness of station environments has gone right down the pan, though
Having been an occasional visitor to the London suburbs in the '80s and '90s, then visting them again after a long absence a few years ago, I had the opposite experience. Stations that had been boarded up, with peeling paint (no matter how brightly coloured) and no lavatories, buffet or even waiting room now had small snack shacks, refurbished loos and open, if spartan, waiting rooms. It was a notable improvement and a considerable surprise.

Paddington is also much more pleasant now the roof has been cleaned and refurbished so more daylight filters through, and the removal of the clutter of destination boards and hoardings between concourse and platforms makes the station much more pleasant.
 

CBlue

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Having been an occasional visitor to the London suburbs in the '80s and '90s, then visting them again after a long absence a few years ago, I had the opposite experience. Stations that had been boarded up, with peeling paint (no matter how brightly coloured) and no lavatories, buffet or even waiting room now had small snack shacks, refurbished loos and open, if spartan, waiting rooms. It was a notable improvement and a considerable surprise.

Paddington is also much more pleasant now the roof has been cleaned and refurbished so more daylight filters through, and the removal of the clutter of destination boards and hoardings between concourse and platforms makes the station much more pleasant.

Quite. Anyone that remembers Kings' Cross pre-rebuild wouldn't think the ambience has gotten worse....it was a skanky, filthy and overcrowded dingy 1970s relic that genuinely felt a bit dodgy at night.

Now it's lighter, far more pleasant and tidy inside and generally an ok place to wait for a train.
 

RSimons

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In the early 70s I used to travel on the Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury line and I recall every seat back vibrating as the train ground over Talerddig. The seats, at 5-abreast, were too narrow and in the winter there were choking fumes from the heating system. Thirty years later I travelled the same route and the contrast was striking with far less noise and vibration, more comfortable seats and better heating, and the whole journey was faster.
 

HowardGWR

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It's good you can't open a toplight nowadays, or open a door window, as I suffer from stiff necks. However, the class 444 coaches give me a stiff neck because the air conditioning is too fierce, I have wondered if the guard can control this aspect? Still, much better to have the airconditioning.
 

Dr Hoo

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Because in the context of a transport system, particularly over a shorter distance where people tend to want to catch the first service rather than planning in advance, unrestricted competition makes things worse for most passengers most of the time. Just look at our buses in GB outside London.
Do you have any figures to justify this assertion? In my experience of shorter journeys there is most commonly one operator. Accepting that there are nevertheless some routes with multiple operators, e.g. Stockport to Manchester with six, it still doesn't seem to unduly difficult or expensive to get an inter-available ticket and jump on the first train that presents itself.
 
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